Topic: SOHC4 Engine top end oiler anyone?

[WFO]

Terry would this be a good improvement for the newer 82 SOHC? or did honda address that problem by then?

[Terry in Australia]

Thanks guys, I'm pretty excited about this thing, and as Jonbuoy says, it'd be nice to totally bypass the OEM top end oiling system of course, but I'll work on getting this thing up and running first.

To answer WFO's question, I've no idea if they fixed it on the last SOHC's mate, but I doubt it. I really am surprised that no-one has ever done it before considering that there were/are kits available for other bikes built in lower volumes, (for instance the XT/TT/SR500 Yamaha's as Mordy has mentioned, I had an XT500 dirt bike in 1982, what a beast!) but I don't see why this won't work, as someone mentioned earlier, any extra oil to the top end, is a good thing.

If I get a chance tomorrow night I'll do a little more machining, and it'll be ready to test on the weekend! (Oh how I love a weekend..........) Cheers, Terry.

[Steve F]

Terry,
I'm wondering what the viscosity of say, 20w50 oil is at normal operating temp, and if maybe a spraying nozzle of some kind that is designed around a specific viscosity at a certain pressure could deliver the oil in a more desirable fashion.  Nozzle design, based on a specific flow rate and a dispersion angle from 0 degrees to 150 degrees could be incorporated into the tappet cover fittings.  Just something to consider.  Also, how are the fittings attached to the inspection caps?  Would you have to remove the hoses to gain access to the tappets?
Here's a link to nozzle information:
http://www.spray.com/cat70/a/Cat70_Section_A.pdf

[CB750F2]

G'Day Terry. I am very interested in what you are doing. I am curious to see the nozzle setup and how they get oil passed the tappet adjusting nuts which are in the middle of the inspection holes. Also you might consider injecting from the intake side as it is higher than the exhaust side. I hope that the project is successful. Pat from Nth Qld.

[Terry in Australia]

G'Day Guys, thanks for that, at this early stage I'm certainly not looking at "nozzle technology".

As much as being able to design a certain spray pattern at a certain engine oil temp would be nice, none of the Top End Oiler kits I've seen (GS Suzuki, Triumph twins and big Yamaha singles) have bothered to go this far in depth, the idea is just to get more oil fed (with some pressure) to your valve train.

The inspection caps are a convenient entry point, not to mention that the rockers rapid "up and down" movement will serve well to disperse the oil around the inside of the cam cover, and over the valve train. Yes you will need to remove the lines to adjust your rockers, maybe once year? It'll add maybe 10 minutes to the job.

I could add more lines so the oil enters on both sides, but the overriding principle is that you send the oil to the hottest side first, i.e., the exhaust side, and as much as I hate to mention it, there's an added cost here, that many of the more "frugal" SOHC4 owners here would object to.........

When I eventually buy an AC/DC Tig welder and start modifying cam covers with cam tower hold down bolts for big cam applications, I'll look at moving the top end oiler entry point to a more central position over the cam, and maybe more "nozzle tech" too, but that's a ways off, and the cost (and inconvenience of taking the engine out to fit it) will be prohibitive to the average road rider. Cheers, Terry.

[lordmoonpie]

Great idea Terry - if you can get a working and viable method, I'm in for a set! I guess the problem with the 750 is how best to get it all up there.

It is possible to spray the oil at working temperature - it's how M3 lubricate their hy-vo primary chain so same principle - see pic 1.

I modified the oil feeds on my Black Bomber for the same aim - better cam oiling but I supopse this is a bit of a more serious issue for the bomber running the cam in the head itself - but then I altered that also by fitting needle rollers and enlarging the head to get them in. The main oilways up through the barrels and in the head are plugged on the right side to push the oil through the external lines. Works a treat!

So I think your ideda and theory all stck up real good - the trick will be getting the oil flow just right so as not to smoke or lose power....good on ya! 

[lordmoonpie]

oh and here's a bit of a wobbly picture of the external plumbing on the bomber - not exactly pretty but it sure is functional!

[Terry in Australia]

Hey that looks bloody magnificent mate! I agree re: the oil flow too, so on my prototype that I've built, I'm running an in line "ball valve" style shut off device, so I can meter the oil flow, and if it works, I might include one in each kit so buyers can "dial in" the oil flow to suit their needs.(racing/touring/commuting etc) Cheers, Terry.

[754]

Just a thought, Terry.. cant you come off the end of the oil gallery where a guage mounts.. then go up the back & over?  a bit cleaner setup, and i think if you dont go wild on the tubessizes, it will not rob the crank of oil..

[paulages]

certainly not trying to naysay here- think this is a great idea- but i can't help but wonder aloud if this would prevent cam bearing destruction if the restrictors got plugged. i don't get the impression you're trying to suggest that this system will replace the OEM terry, so maybe it's a moot point, but i wonder if a spray of cooling oil could possibly replace the pressurized oil that the cam actually rides on if the restrictor became plugged. that's an honest question. it seems like it would potentially prevent the total overheat and destruction of the rest of the rocker assembly evidenced in another recent thread on here anyway. keep at it for sure. i like seeing a mad scientist at work. 

[Terry in Australia]

Just a thought, Terry.. cant you come off the end of the oil gallery where a guage mounts.. then go up the back & over?  a bit cleaner setup, and i think if you dont go wild on the tubessizes, it will not rob the crank of oil..

Well I thought about that too Frank, but apart from the fact that I didn't want to rob oil from the OEM oiling system, I decided against it for the following reasons:

1. I like to mount my oil pressure gauges there, and to tap that spot could affect an accurate reading,
2. Only the CB750 has that takeoff there, so I'd have to make a range of models for different SOHC4's,
3. Most of the guys who'll want one of these, will also want an oil cooler I imagine, and
4. Ease/neatness of installation. With the cooler adapter installed, it's a very tidy installation, and dead simple.

certainly not trying to naysay here- think this is a great idea- but i can't help but wonder aloud if this would prevent cam bearing destruction if the restrictors got plugged. i don't get the impression you're trying to suggest that this system will replace the OEM terry, so maybe it's a moot point, but i wonder if a spray of cooling oil could possibly replace the pressurized oil that the cam actually rides on if the restrictor became plugged. that's an honest question. it seems like it would potentially prevent the total overheat and destruction of the rest of the rocker assembly evidenced in another recent thread on here anyway. keep at it for sure. i like seeing a mad scientist at work. 

Thanks mate, and while I might be mad, I'm no scientist, ha ha!

Seriously though, it's not intended to work as a preventative measure against total failure of the OEM oiling system, but rather, a "life extender", to supply more oil to the top end from more oiling points in the head, to reduce the wear and tear from the full range of riding, and of course racing, conditions.

If your OEM oiling system is blocked, it might be more than just your top end that suffers. Cheers, Terry.

[paulages]

2. Only the CB750 has that takeoff there, so I'd have to make a range of models for different SOHC4's,

terry- it makes sense you're adding on to the adapters you already make, but for what it's worth the 550/650 (and i believe350/400) have main oil galley plugs about 8" lower than the ones on the 750.

[754]

Terry, your oil sending unit is your second location and allows to still run the guage. Using that with a guage allows you to see if you have pressure loss.


Do you have a 1/16 NPT tap, you may be able to tap onto the valvecover.. pretty small use that size on nitrous nozzles..

[Gregorymoto]

Hay lordmoonpie got some other pics of your Bomber would love to see it.

[GammaFlat]

Would a system like this be appealing to late "F" models that have the extra angle on the larger valves (and subsequently early valve guide failure)? 

[Terry in Australia]

2. Only the CB750 has that takeoff there, so I'd have to make a range of models for different SOHC4's,

terry- it makes sense you're adding on to the adapters you already make, but for what it's worth the 550/650 (and i believe350/400) have main oil galley plugs about 8" lower than the ones on the 750.

Thanks mate, that's right, I've done a couple of oil pressure gauges for 500 and 550 owners.

Do you have a 1/16 NPT tap, you may be able to tap onto the valvecover.. pretty small use that size on nitrous nozzles..

Thanks Frank, as previously mentioned, I'll do that on my racing valve covers that I'll be doing as soon as I get a TIG, but I don't want to complicate this kit for guys who just want a bolt on type application, without doing any permanent mods to their bikes. Cheers, Terry.

[754]

Not sure what you will be using, but 2 sources of oilsquirters are,
 

piston skirt oiler on HD bigTwins, in the last 10 or so years..


 & valvespring oilers used to cool the springs in offshore boat motors..

[Terry in Australia]

Thanks Frank, have you got any pics? Cheers, Terry.

[HondaMan]

Terry:
have you thought about orificing some extra oil over the cam bearings? This is the only spot I can think of that's in trouble on the (stock) 750 engine: the inner ones, in particular, get insufficient oil. The upper earing half has a collector opening where an overhead dripper or feeder would really help, especially at idle.

If someone were working with the hi-lift cams, adding a few drops to the lobes would help, too.

The wear on the rocker shafts can be removed far more simply than adding oil, like this: just install new shafts and DON'T install the little non-rotation bolts. Just use the center bolt for the bearing housing to hold it in place, like the K0-K1 did (beware: this bolt can only take 7.5 ft-lbs of torque before stripping the threads in the head!). It makes a slight mechanical noise appear, but letting it rotate also stops the wear. (130,000 miles can't be wrong, here!). This locked-in-place shafts first appeared in late K2 engines, and they wear on the bottom like crazy for lack of lube. Honda instaled the non-rotation bolts to reduce top-end clatter, especially behind the very popular Vetter fairings of the time. It stoped the clatter for about 5000-7000 miles, after which it was much worse from this shaft wear and the ovalled rockers. 

These engines are orificed in the head to reduce flow to the head while below 2000 RPM. Honda did this to preserve lots of oil for the plain bearings on the crankshaft. I guess that part was just so much more expensive, it was to be protected at all costs. The tradeoff, of course, is the loss of lube above, starting at the center 2 cam bearings, then working its way outward after about 1 minute of hot idle.

[754]

So are you saying you could enlarge the late ones slightly and increase oil supply to the cam bearings..?

or maybe on all years.. greater supply means more oil everywhere under the cover..

[Terry in Australia]

Terry:
have you thought about orificing some extra oil over the cam bearings? This is the only spot I can think of that's in trouble on the (stock) 750 engine: the inner ones, in particular, get insufficient oil. The upper earing half has a collector opening where an overhead dripper or feeder would really help, especially at idle.

If someone were working with the hi-lift cams, adding a few drops to the lobes would help, too.

The wear on the rocker shafts can be removed far more simply than adding oil, like this: just install new shafts and DON'T install the little non-rotation bolts. Just use the center bolt for the bearing housing to hold it in place, like the K0-K1 did (beware: this bolt can only take 7.5 ft-lbs of torque before stripping the threads in the head!). It makes a slight mechanical noise appear, but letting it rotate also stops the wear. (130,000 miles can't be wrong, here!). This locked-in-place shafts first appeared in late K2 engines, and they wear on the bottom like crazy for lack of lube. Honda instaled the non-rotation bolts to reduce top-end clatter, especially behind the very popular Vetter fairings of the time. It stoped the clatter for about 5000-7000 miles, after which it was much worse from this shaft wear and the ovalled rockers. 

These engines are orificed in the head to reduce flow to the head while below 2000 RPM. Honda did this to preserve lots of oil for the plain bearings on the crankshaft. I guess that part was just so much more expensive, it was to be protected at all costs. The tradeoff, of course, is the loss of lube above, starting at the center 2 cam bearings, then working its way outward after about 1 minute of hot idle.

G'Day Mark, thanks for that mate, I love reading your posts, not only do you describe the problem, but you give us all a valuable history lesson about "why" Honda did this, and what the "fix" is, from someone who was actually there, with no BS, either. A refreshing change............. 

When I pull my wicked 836 race engine apart to install the APE crank, I'm gonna remove those little rocker shaft screws, it's already pretty noisy with the Megacycle 125/75 cam and 5 thou valve clearances, so a little more will only add to the music that that engine already makes, ha ha!

I need an AC/DC TIG welder, then I'll certainly add some oil ports over the cam when I make my race engine valve covers with cam tower hold downs, but at the moment (having just paid out 1500 bucks this week for two lots of car registrations and a set of tyres for my Ford, and 1400 bucks for my mortgage) the TIG is still at arms length, and anyway, I'll need to teach myself to use it, once I manage to scrape together the dough.........

So for the time being, I'm still working on feeding the oil in via the exhaust side rocker inspection covers, because it'll be spraying oil rather than dripping it, the oil will hit the top of the rockers and exhaust valve   spring caps, which will help to propel the oil all around the inside of the valve cover, so everything should get a mist of oil.

Last weekend I spent making oil cooler adapters and entertaining relatives, but I did make a start, I turned up a special oil cooler adapter with 3 ports, specifically for the top end oiler. I could have tapped into the bottom of one of my old Lockhart adapters, but I just didn't like how it was gonna look, so instead, I made my own.



During the week I went to a hydraulic hose place and bought some cloth braided, steel reinforced, high pressure hot oil line, they said it'd fit over my 1/4" barb fittings, but they're full of #$%*, it's way too tight, and probably unnecessary anyway, so I've wasted another 30 bucks. I bought some shiny 1/4" ID braided stainless steel covered hose from a nice bloke on EBay in the US, so when that arrives, that'll have to do. 

Yesterday I stalled going out to the garage as long as I could because it's freaking cold here at the moment, we've had rain, hail, and (in the hills where Steve K0 lives) snow! Anyway, I shamed myself into getting among the tools, and the first thing I did was measure the "oil restrictor" drilling in that K0 head you sent me (thanks mate) and was surprised that the hole size is less than my smallest available drill bit, 1.5mm.

I thought about going to the store to buy some smaller bits, but decided against it as the rain was pisssing down, and decided on the 1.5mm drill bit. Now, I'm using 1/8" BSPT fittings threaded into some old "chopper" style finned inspection covers, the benefit being that the fittings will sit further back from the rockers, allowing more "atomisation" of the oil, not to mention giving it a bit more clearance, I've seen damage on the insides of some stock OEM inspection covers where an owner has used a big cam and part of the "tapping" was the rocker arm contacting the cover.

Anyway, I've tapped the insides of the fittings and made up some "restictors" by drilling brass screws, threading and loctiting them inside the fittings, cutting off any excess, and countersinking them. It sounds easy I know, but my lathe is one big mother with a 40" bed and 18" swing, so a 6mm screw wouldn't sit in the 3 jaw chuck, and if it did and I tried to tighten it, it'd just mash the threads.




Hmmnnnn, easy enough, I found a piece of 1 1/2" brass bar (bronze actually, left over from making some swingarm bushes) and drilled and tapped it for the screw, so that way I could chuck it in my lathe, and drill it. Next problem, my 3/4" drilling chuck is way too big for a 1.5mm drill bit. Bugger. Now I've got a couple of "El Cheapo" Dremel knockoffs, so I went thru the collection of drill collets, and found one that would hold my little drill bit, so I then had to machine up a "collet chuck" so I could secure the drill bit in my drill chuck. Phew............




Steve K0 rang to tell me he's found me a set of K1 engine cases (geez he's a good bloke!) and I yakked to him for about half an hour, then the wife wanted me to drive her to the supermarket to get some groceries, (and I sneaked around to a bar and lost 30 bucks in a poker machine while drinking watered down Bourbon, but that's another story........) then I went to the hardware store to buy some "Simple Green" BBQ and Grill cleaner and some micro fiber cloths, but forgot the 1mm drill bit! Oh well................

I'm taking the fam out to see a movie today ("Taken" with Liam Neeson) but I'll get some more machining done before that, I need to make the other "restrictors" up, finish the manifold and mounts, bead blast the 30-odd years worth of crud off the rocker inspection covers, and drill and tap them for the fittings. It's doubtful that I'll actually get the kit mounted on my K0 today, but I'll set it up on my K2 engine and take some pics so you can see what I'm doing. Stay tuned! Cheers, Terry.  

[HondaMan]

Wow, pretty work, Terry! I'm jealous of your lathe: mine is only 7x10, which makes it tough to polish or grind the swingarm collars I work with: thinking of an 8x12 someday. It would let me do the tiny things, still, but would fit the collars and axle parts a lot better.

Just one suggestion: I think those "oil jets" in the tappet covers that you now have are too big. They will rob a considerable amount of bottom-end pressure and flow, where it's really needed the most. At the place where that pretty adapter is, the pressure can reach 65 PSI, so those 1mm holes can each siphon off nearly 10% of the total flow (30% total): that's a bit much, IMO, although I tend to be pretty conservative... This might lead to crank bearing problems at that much flow loss, so maybe try to match the size holes that are in the K0 head?    Then you could sneak up on the final value in a little experimenting? A smaller hole would atomize better, too, which would be the ideal scenario here. Too much flow would also make for nasty leaks along the front of the cam cover, too. Ugly.

What I'd suggest for experimenting (easy for me, as I'm working on something else, you know, and sitting in a chair at the moment  ) is to install a PSI gage in that main journal on the back of the cylinders, so you can see what's happening with the main-bearing pressures. Also, maybe shim the spring in the oil pump's PSI relief valve with an extra washer, to raise it's PSI a few pounds? For example, on my aging K2 (130,000 miles, now), this relief valve has shown no sign of movement since my last rebuild 2 years ago, clear indication of pump wear and lower-than-Honda-expected flow and pressure from it. I'm working on a "pump rebuild kit" for these engines now (have about 6 pumps here to play with), and hope to improve their performance along the way...

Are you going to use synthetic oil, by chance? I'm becoming very impressed with the "towing" Mobil1, 15w50 oil, low detergent. It's done some nice things for my old engine, until I can get to rebuilding it. It runs cooler, smoother clutch and shifting when hot, starts better, idles faster (all else being equal), all signs of extra-good lube. It actually runs so much cooler that I can lean out the jetting a bit to help clean up the plugs, an interesting side effect. Good for MPG, too! This will drop the power a bit, though - not that I need it, really. 

About SteveK0: did he ever say that he installed the Ignitions I sent him, or did he just send them along to China? 

[Terry in Australia]

G'Day Mark, thanks for that mate, and I hear ya, although the pic doesn't do justice to the relative size of the holes, they're not that big, it's just a trick of the light.

Having said that, I'll probably make up some 1mm "jets" as time goes by, you might have noticed that I've plumbed in a "ball valve" tap so I can stop the flow of oil to the head if anything goes awry while I'm testing it, and I install oil pressure gauges on all my CB750 engines (cheap insurance) so it'll be easy to check the oil pressure with the top end oiler "on" and "off" to measure the pressure drop.

I'll install a cooler as well, but as it's cold here, I'll plumb in a Lockhart thermo bypass valve as well, I don't want to kill my beeootiful K0, in this cold weather.

SteveK0 is like me Mark, full of good intentions, but slooooooow to get things done. To his credit he's got his lovely gold K0 on the road this year, but he's just finishing building his new house, he's just got a concrete floor laid in his massive new garage, he's fixing up his old place to sell, and working nights to support his family. I'm not sure if he's installed your ignition on his K0 yet, but like me, he'll (eventually) get around to it, ha ha!

Hey how much are you charging for the swingarm refurb kits? I'll take one for my K1, and a reco'd "Hondaman" oil pump while you're at it, ha ha! Cheers, Terry.

[HondaMan]

G'Day Mark, thanks for that mate, and I hear ya, although the pic doesn't do justice to the relative size of the holes, they're not that big, it's just a trick of the light.

Having said that, I'll probably make up some 1mm "jets" as time goes by, you might have noticed that I've plumbed in a "ball valve" tap so I can stop the flow of oil to the head if anything goes awry while I'm testing it, and I install oil pressure gauges on all my CB750 engines (cheap insurance) so it'll be easy to check the oil pressure with the top end oiler "on" and "off" to measure the pressure drop.

I'll install a cooler as well, but as it's cold here, I'll plumb in a Lockhart thermo bypass valve as well, I don't want to kill my beeootiful K0, in this cold weather.

SteveK0 is like me Mark, full of good intentions, but slooooooow to get things done. To his credit he's got his lovely gold K0 on the road this year, but he's just finishing building his new house, he's just got a concrete floor laid in his massive new garage, he's fixing up his old place to sell, and working nights to support his family. I'm not sure if he's installed your ignition on his K0 yet, but like me, he'll (eventually) get around to it, ha ha!

Hey how much are you charging for the swingarm refurb kits? I'll take one for my K1, and a reco'd "Hondaman" oil pump while you're at it, ha ha! Cheers, Terry.

I'll be jealous of SteveK0's garage (or anyone's, really) if it has enough room to park a car AND work on a bike at once inside! 

Do you have good oil gauges to recommend? All the ones I've seen here will fail after a couple of years. I've seen many tiny ones that plugged into the main journal, but the heat makes them give up, leaving a 20-30 PSI "zero" reading after a little while. That's a great idea (and terrific forethought), having the little shutoff valves in those lines!

I wish I could make swingarm kits. The problem that almost every arm I see has: the tube for the bushings gets oval from the impact loads over time. So, I usually have to start by honing/cutting/boring the tube straight first, then I make new oilite bushings to match, press them in, and usually have to finish-hone them to the perfect fit. After all this, I give it a lifetime warranty, but still, it's not a kit-able thing... For some reason, Honda has switched the bushings they sell for these bikes to be made from steel, instead of the bearing materials they used to use (zamak, phenolic), and the steel-on-steel bearing surfaces destroy each other in as little as one year of riding. Some of these have come to me so locked up with rust-on-rust that it has taken me hours to remove the old collar, then more hours to remove the old bushings! The worst are those arms with only one grease zerk in the middle, and no grease grooves on the collar (550, 750K5 and later). I modify the new collars with grease grooves, and try to get the owner to switch the system to the earlier-style 750K0-K4 with the 2-zerk pivot bolts instead.

I'll bet you can make those bushings on that nice lathe, though: if you turn down the old collar, don't go below .835" OD or you'll cut through the case hardening: grinding is better, too. The interference fit for the bushings in the arm is .0005" to .0008", the clearance collar-to-bushing is .0008" to .0012". If you do them in oilite (841 bronze, worldwide), hone with a coarse stone so you don't seal the oil pores, and they will outlast the engine if you grease them every 5000 miles or so. The length of the bushing for K0 is 1.675", for later 750 it's 1.775", and setback into the arm is .230" to .240" 

[rhinoracer]

Nice job Terry! Great idea on installing them in the valve caps, I thougt of bypassing the stock setup with an external setup like yours when I was rebuilding my engine but couldn't figure where to drill on the valve cover. This would have solved that problem.

Is there a reason you didn't use small dia. copper tubing with compression fittings? That's what I'm planning on using on the next rebuild, it looks more conspicuous I think.