Topic: Engine locked up. Starter not installed correctly?

[old750]

With a brand new fully charged battery my starter was still not doing anything except make noise. I took it apart, cleaned it all with brake cleaner and put it back together correctly as far as I can tell. I reinstalled it on the bike and now the bike is locked up. I can not turn the crank. I move the bike back and forth and can hear the starter making noise.
 
What did I do wrong? The starter apparently has a clutch on it but I don't know what it looked like. Is there a diagram of how the starter and pinion gear should be installed on the bike? I'm really confused here.

[KingCustomCycles.com]

Type of bike?

[old750]

Sorry. 72 Cb750. I'm not quite sure how the gears go back in behind the crankcase. Is the starter pinion supposed to be engaged with the intermediate gear which is engaged to the really big gear?

[NGL_BrSH]

it kicks over manually still right?

[old750]

No. Everything is locked up even with the clutch pulled in.

[old750]

Does anyone have any idea what could be wrong?? 55 views and no answers. im depressed.

[NGL_BrSH]

did it move manually before you did this?

If so I'd get a manual and reinstall the starter.

Sorry i'm not much help.. gl

[KingCustomCycles.com]

As I recall, and it has been many types of Honda engines ago, the starter engages into a pinion gear.  If that gear got pushed out of place and fell into the housing, or is jammed, it could be stopping the engine from rotating.  Shine a light into where the starter shaft goes into the housing and see where it is supposed to go.  I just looked at the manual and it wasn't much help. 

[dusterdude]

if you have not done so,remove the starter and any gearing that attaches to the engine.then try to crank the engne with the kicker,if it moves you know the starter was the issue,if not,you have bigger problems.

[mystic_1]

The starter clutch is actually built into the large gear behind the alternator rotor.  I'd suggest popping off the alternator cover and seeing what's up.


#3, 4, 5, and 15 are the starter clutch assembly:



#1 here is the pinion or idler gear, #4 is the gear behind the rotor:





mystic_1

[Johnie]

Yes, and part#1,2,3 in the lower diagram fit on the end of the starter.  Actually parts 1&3 slide onto shaft #1.  Shaft #1 should only be able to come off if you take that side cover off as the starter shaft slides into the #1 gear.

[paulages]

like DD said, the obvious first step is to remove the starter and kick it over. removing the alternator cover should only be done after that attempting this and finding the engine still locked, as it's an oily, new gasket requiring process.

[Bodi]

The starter clutch shouldn't be disturbed if you didn't remove the alternator. All the assorted parts are held in place unless you pull the rotor... and generally shoot out around the shop when you do.
This is a one-way "sprag" clutch, letting the crank rotate forward freely but allowing the starter gear to drive it forward. When the engine is running, centrifugal action forces the 3 rollers out and there's no contact or wear.
So... if the clutch is OK (they do fail: the rollers can crack, caps can wear through and entangle the springs, springs can break, and the housing (#3) can itself crack apart) then nothing you do to the starter can freeze the engine. A seized starter motor would make it impossible to manually turn the engine backwards, but turning or kickstarting "forward" there would be no effect at all.
Even a seized starter clutch will only lock he starter motor to the crank, it is not really hard to turn the crank backwards and force the starter to turn... we often do so when setting ignition timing.
So, in conclusion... if the engine is locked solid I don't think the problem is your starter motor.

[paulages]

The starter clutch shouldn't be disturbed if you didn't remove the alternator. All the assorted parts are held in place unless you pull the rotor... and generally shoot out around the shop when you do.
This is a one-way "sprag" clutch, letting the crank rotate forward freely but allowing the starter gear to drive it forward. When the engine is running, centrifugal action forces the 3 rollers out and there's no contact or wear.
So... if the clutch is OK (they do fail: the rollers can crack, caps can wear through and entangle the springs, springs can break, and the housing (#3) can itself crack apart) then nothing you do to the starter can freeze the engine. A seized starter motor would make it impossible to manually turn the engine backwards, but turning or kickstarting "forward" there would be no effect at all.
Even a seized starter clutch will only lock he starter motor to the crank, it is not really hard to turn the crank backwards and force the starter to turn... we often do so when setting ignition timing.
So, in conclusion... if the engine is locked solid I don't think the problem is your starter motor.

...unless he somehow really botched the engagement of the starter motor gear with the pinion gear. not sure how he'd do that, but it's seems unlikely that something else mysteriously happened exactly when he pulled the starter and replaced it. he still hasn't clarified whether "cannot turn the crank" means with the electric starter, or with the kickstart also. if rolling the bike in gear is turning the starter motor, i'm thinking he's referring to the former and he just has a bad starter motor.

[old750]

The starter clutch shouldn't be disturbed if you didn't remove the alternator. All the assorted parts are held in place unless you pull the rotor... and generally shoot out around the shop when you do.
This is a one-way "sprag" clutch, letting the crank rotate forward freely but allowing the starter gear to drive it forward. When the engine is running, centrifugal action forces the 3 rollers out and there's no contact or wear.
So... if the clutch is OK (they do fail: the rollers can crack, caps can wear through and entangle the springs, springs can break, and the housing (#3) can itself crack apart) then nothing you do to the starter can freeze the engine. A seized starter motor would make it impossible to manually turn the engine backwards, but turning or kickstarting "forward" there would be no effect at all.
Even a seized starter clutch will only lock he starter motor to the crank, it is not really hard to turn the crank backwards and force the starter to turn... we often do so when setting ignition timing.
So, in conclusion... if the engine is locked solid I don't think the problem is your starter motor.

...unless he somehow really botched the engagement of the starter motor gear with the pinion gear. not sure how he'd do that, but it's seems unlikely that something else mysteriously happened exactly when he pulled the starter and replaced it. he still hasn't clarified whether "cannot turn the crank" means with the electric starter, or with the kickstart also. if rolling the bike in gear is turning the starter motor, i'm thinking he's referring to the former and he just has a bad starter motor.

This seems to be what had happened. I pulled the alternator cover to remove the starter and the idler gear and washer went back in place as it should have, but I guess somehow the gears got jammed up. I took everything out and installed it again and now the bike can kick over / crank can be turned.

However, when I kick the kickstarter over, I can still hear the starter making noise. Is this normal? I'm anxious to recharge the battery to see if the starter will work any better because all it did before is make noise. It sounded as though it was just turning but not engaging so I'm thinking the problem may be with the clutch. Thanks for the diagram mystic_1.

[dusterdude]

if the starter sounds as if it is turning,then no,thats not normal.what it could be is beyond my realm of expertise in the matter.

[martino1972]

while you had the cover off,did you check if the starter gear disengages when you turn the crank?

[Bodi]

Ah. Jam the starter in, force the big gear crooked, it all gets locked up.
Kicking over should not turn the starter motor. Hopefully the pissing about has just wedged a roller in tight and either powering the starter motor or starting the thing with the kicker will set it right. I would suggest starting the engine, don't rev it much if the starter really IS forced to turn... you can overspeed the starter motor and damage it. Using the electric start is not a great idea, if one roller is jammed it could crack the "clutch outer" which is expensive if even available. The rollers, springs, and caps are relatively cheap.