Author Topic: What's fried?  (Read 2842 times)

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gator1gear

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What's fried?
« on: August 03, 2008, 11:58:29 AM »
I taught my girlfriend that Red is positive and Black is negative, on jumper cables and Car batteries (I know). In an emergency situation I used a red connector on the ground side of my Ford Ranger. Never got around to changing it. I had her hook up the cables, so I could jumpstart the 550 today and uh......

Bike will turn over fine, and I can't find any melted wires. The bike will not start. When I hooked the cables up to the proper terminals, there is NO smoke or heated wires, but no starting either ;D What do I need to check or replace?

Offline PJ

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Re: What's fried?
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2008, 12:08:07 PM »
Check the fuses, and check to see if you have 12v going to the coils. Does the starter button turn over the engine? Are all the lights working? If so I would bet no voltage at the coils.

gator1gear

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Re: What's fried?
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2008, 12:15:44 PM »
Starter does turn the engine over. will run check the lights, I know the horn doesn't work now.

gator1gear

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Re: What's fried?
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2008, 12:17:52 PM »
Lights don't work either ???

gator1gear

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Re: What's fried?
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2008, 12:34:08 PM »
Uh oh! After further inspection, I found the red wire into rectifier is melted.

Offline Gregorymoto

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Re: What's fried?
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2008, 01:08:20 PM »
do not use a car Bat to jump a Motorcycle Bat.
Sooo not good.
Yep, i have issues with this sort of stuff.

Offline hopterfixer

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Re: What's fried?
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2008, 01:15:53 PM »
Do not use a car battery while the car is running

gator1gear

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Re: What's fried?
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2008, 01:40:10 PM »
Reversing the polarity is what caused all this, not the car battery.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: What's fried?
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2008, 01:43:16 PM »
You can use a car battery to start a motorcycle as long as they use the same voltage.  It doesn't matter to the bike if the car is running or not.

Reversing the polarity leads, puts severe stress on any wires leading to the rectifier as well as the rectifier itself.  Both the green and red wires to the rectifier, along with any wires that run adjacent to those wires must now be visually scrutinized.

All six diodes in the rectifier should be checked for correct operation.  Reverse polarity either frys wire or rectifier diodes until something melts to break the current flow.

The green wire from the rectifier running into the harness and up the frame spine to the termination point near the coils often melts under such abuse and damages the insulation of other wires inside the harness.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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gator1gear

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Re: What's fried?
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2008, 02:04:43 PM »
Thanks Two Tired. I checked the green wire it's fine. The red wire, not so much. I read that the rectifier could be by-passed, but it won't start that way either. Gonna replace the rectifier and see if that changes anything. I'll give my girlfriend credit, she realized what was going on and immediately disconnected the cables at the first sign of trouble. A little too late, but she gets an A for effort.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: What's fried?
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2008, 04:05:56 PM »
I suggest you check the green wire again, at both ends.  The same currents that melt the red one normally flow through the green ones as well.
Current flows in a loop between the neg and pos terminals.  Pretty odd that only half the path would overheat.  (Maybe if the rectifier shorted internally to the frame mount, it found an abnormal return path.  If you have an ohmmeter, you can check for that.)

You can't bypass the rectifier, it converts AC to DC power that the battery can use.  But, you can take the rectifier out of circuit.  Of course, the alternator can't supply power to recharge the battery.   The engine should run on total loss from whatever battery you connect to it (correctly), for as long as the battery has power.

If your starter motor solenoid is getting engaged, then you should have power to the ignition as well.  Make sure the kill switch is in the correct position.  If you have electronic ignition, it could be fried too, if you gave it reverse polarity.
If you have points and standard coils, the engine should have spark and be able to run, perhaps on fuel reserve, if necessary.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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gator1gear

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Re: What's fried?
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2008, 04:37:27 PM »
Thanks so much, I'll re-check the green wire but it's fine going in and out of the rectifier. I'll unravel the complete harness to be sure.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: What's fried?
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2008, 04:43:06 PM »
I repaired a harness that was burned. You could see the outer wrapping distorted from the heat.  The green wire insulation near the frame mount terminal (at the coils) was also toasted.

If you can verify that your rectifier actually shorted to the frame mount, you may not have to unravel the main harness.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

gator1gear

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Re: What's fried?
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2008, 05:20:37 PM »
I just unravelled the whole harness and the only wire burned is the red wire into the rectifier and about an inch of the red wire out of the rectifier. The green wire is fine. That being said, I have no idea what that means ;D

Offline Gregorymoto

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Re: What's fried?
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2008, 05:54:34 PM »
No you cant use a car Bat if the Volt is the same as the bike. The Amps are the issue not the Volts.
Yep, i have issues with this sort of stuff.

gator1gear

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Re: What's fried?
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2008, 06:08:28 PM »
I'm not trying to be a smart *** , but this is not the first time I've jumped the bike off with my truck. The only time I ever had a problem was today, because the cables were hooked up in reverse of the way they should be. If using the car to jumpstart it wouldn't work, I would have known long before today, and I would NEVER be able to cut my grass. I do the lawnmower the same way.

Offline fmctm1sw

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Re: What's fried?
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2008, 06:26:59 PM »
Only read the first post...  Been there done that.  Did you have a radio!?   ;D
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Offline 333

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Re: What's fried?
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2008, 06:36:05 PM »
I'm guessing the lawnmower doesn't have a charging system, or anything more than a charging coil.  The problem arises when the car is running, and then the bike starts.  The two alternators and their respective rectifiers/regulators are at this time fighting each other, and the weaker one will lose.  If you're REAL quick, and disconnect within seconds(less than 5 probably) you can cheat "charging system death", but the best thing is to just not do it with the car running.

Reverse polarity is what caused this issue.  What I don't quite understand is why the horn was affected.  Or the lights.  Neither are polarity sensitive, or even turned on.
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Offline 05c50

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Re: What's fried?
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2008, 06:50:47 PM »
Oh boy, this discussion could get ugly. This car battery thing has been discussed before. As I remember it, amps are drawn (by the load) and volts are pushed, so I aggree with TT that there is nothing wrong with using a car battery to start a bike........as long as it's done correctly.

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gator1gear

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Re: What's fried?
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2008, 07:03:53 PM »
If this starts to get ugly, I will respectfully exit the thread. I'm really not interested in starting a giant e-fight. I will check on the things that Two Tired suggested and go from there.

Offline 333

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Re: What's fried?
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2008, 07:31:40 PM »
Yes, you are correct in that amps are drawn, and volts are pushed.  But the two are related.  If you were to disconnect the battery after starting your car, the voltage would skyrocket and fry all the electronics in the vehicle.  Today's car alternator produces well over 100 amps.  And when measuring volts when the car is running, some go over 14 volts.  A bit more than these old bikes can handle.  The books say 13.8, but I've measured almost 15 volts on some cars.  The battery does absorb the charge, but if it is already fully charged, the electricity has nowhere to go but up the jumpers to your bike.  The real eye opener for me was working a M/C parts counter for a few years and seeing what can be damaged by doing this stuff.  Not so much 70s bikes, but more for the later bikes that had electronic ignition.

I don't mean to be ugly.  I can't help my self sometimes.  Besides, it's been my experience that theory and reality don't always agree.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: What's fried?
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2008, 12:02:25 AM »
It's not just theory, it is the laws of physics.

Current flows according to ohms' law formula; I = E/R, Where I equals current, E equals voltage, and R equals circuit resistance.  This is NOT theory.  It is the physical nature of electricity.

A bike draws the same amperage whether it be from a motorcycle battery, a car battery, or a truck battery.  If the battery is 12 V rated, it is compatible, and the device connected to it determines the current that flows through the circuit.

A motorcycle battery has capacity to deliver many hundreds of amps, a car battery 1000s.  Neither delivers any until connected to a load.  And, it can't push any more current than the load circuit demands.  A starter motor draws hundreds, an instrument bulb draw fractions of an amp.  Each device draws current based on its offered resistance to current flow.  A starter motor has low resistance. Check the formula.  Plug in low values of R, where E =12 V and you get high values of I.  It's the law.

Charging systems provide a small fraction of the power available from a battery.  Another law, Watt's Law dictates P(Watts) = E * I . The 750's 210 watt peak alternator, provides 17.5 A peak.  The 550's 150 watt alternator provides 12.5 A.

Auto alternators are usually stronger to charge the larger batteries they employ.  Even those are only a fraction the capability of their batteries.  They can provide 60, 100, even 120 amps in the right circumstances.  But, only when the demand is placed on them.  Car batteries can provide thousands of amps, again only when there is a demand.

Car batteries are charged using the same voltage potentials as motorcycle batteries.  14.5V is still the peak limit in both vehicle systems. The routine maintenance charge level is 13.8 v which is usually an average measurement.

No you cant use a car Bat if the Volt is the same as the bike. The Amps are the issue not the Volts.
This makes no sense at all.  You can't have current without resistance.  Other wise batteries would discharge without ever being connected.  Fortunately it's against the law, Ohm's law.

If you were to disconnect the battery after starting your car, the voltage would skyrocket and fry all the electronics in the vehicle.
The battery is also a very large capacitor.  The capacitance is used to stabilize the voltage regulation.  Without the capacitor, the regulator loses some stability, and high voltage spikes can damage computer electronics whose sensitive inputs are unable to withstand these excursions.  However, when jumping a bike from a car, there is no reason to disconnect the vehicle battery from the charging system.  And, there are no computers in the average SOHC4.
 
Today's car alternator produces well over 100 amps.  And when measuring volts when the car is running, some go over 14 volts.  A bit more than these old bikes can handle.  The books say 13.8, but I've measured almost 15 volts on some cars. 

Just what do you think is at risk in the SOHC4?  Certainly noting is at risk at 14.5 V which is routinely found in the SOHC4.  Even 15 V is not unheard of.   And, the battery can take such over voltage for short periods of time without too much outgassing.  Lighting will, of course be brighter.  But, it will usually survive up to about 17V, beyond which the filaments begin to burn out due to excess wattage consumption.  A rated 50 W bulb @ 12.8V becomes a 98 W bulb at 18V.

The battery does absorb the charge, but if it is already fully charged, the electricity has nowhere to go but up the jumpers to your bike. 
This is patently false.  If you continue to provide power to a fully charged battery, it continues to absorb the excess power, converting the power to heat, and separating the Oxygen and Hydrogen from the Sulphuric acid compound via electrolysis.
You can not push electricity where it doesn't want to go.  The must be demand for it, or it simply doesn't go anywhere.

The real eye opener for me was working a M/C parts counter for a few years and seeing what can be damaged by doing this stuff. 
I don't doubt you encountered lot's of damaged stuff at the parts counter.  But, your evidence is heresay regarding part returns.  And, it's coming from people that seldom have a clue about things electrical and are often ham handed, if not outright liars who refuse to admit they reversed lead polarity even momentarily.

Besides, it's been my experience that theory and reality don't always agree.
True, theory and reality can disagree.  But, the laws of physics are utterly reliable, when understood.



Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Steve F

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Re: What's fried?
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2008, 02:21:45 AM »
TT, you blow me away once again with your wisdom.  I sometimes get agitated with some of the posts regarding electrical issues, and these are some of them, which you set straight for the record.
You need to cut-and-paste your comments to a FAQ.
BTW, I've jump started my bike a couple of times from a car battery, and never have had any second thoughts about doing so.  As you said, polarity is the key issue here.  It's gratifying to see things set straight.

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Re: What's fried?
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2008, 05:43:31 AM »
Just taking a step sideways from the great Batery jump start debate.

Is this any help? http://dudesgarage.com/page5.html

Offline 333

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Re: What's fried?
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2008, 08:53:20 AM »
TT, my learned friend.  I can't believe this has turned into an argument over theory and reality, but that's exactly where we are, each taking opposite sides.  And another surprise is that we agree on my earlier statement about the two not always jiving.  You are very knowledgeable on the laws of physics, and I could not or would not argue about them.  But a couple of points need to be addressed.

First, I agree that there is very little on a SOHC4 that is vulnerable to a surge.  The closest thing to "electronic" is the rectifier, and it's pretty tough.  There might be a resistor in the regulator(I can't remember), but again, tough enough to handle it.  Then there are the condensers(capacitors) in the stock ignition system, but that's what they're designed for.  The problem arises when someone has converted to electronic ignition.  This unit is at risk when jumping from a car.  The other weak point,IMHO, is the harness itself.  As great as Honda is, I think they skimped and used a lighter gauge wire here.

Second, I also agree that people returning electronic parts(or any part for that matter) are lying SOBs. EVERY SINGLE ONE of them!   But that's not what I was referring to.  I'm talking about the guy who comes in and says "I don't know what happened.  It was running fine last week.  I came out and the battery was dead, so I tried to jump it with my car, and now there is no spark.".  Now you may say that it was going to go anyway, but the fact that this exact scenario happens almost weekly (at least at a large dealership) has made me and many others at the dealership, think that jumping from a running car is the culprit. 

So, it is clear that reverse polarity is what caused the original posters problem.  And whether the car was running or not probably made no difference.  On the issue of jumping, all I'm saying is why take the chance, even with no electronics on my bike?  If your car battery can't start your bike without running, your car probably isn't going to start either.  And if jumping the bike makes it so the car won't start later, your car still needs a new battery.

I have never been of the belief that "if a little is good, then more is better".  As a Ham Radio operator, one of our principles is to only use enough power to get the job done.  That sums up my philosophy on most subjects.
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