Topic: Acetone In Fuel Said to Increase Mileage

[WFO]

Ok guys what is your thoughts on this subject  (more info on the link) could a test be done without harming a CB?

http://pesn.com/2005/03/17/6900069_Acetone/


Readily-available chemical added to gas tank in small proportion improves the fuel's ability to vaporize completely by reducing the surface tension that inhibits vaporization of some fuel droplets.


How it Works

Acetone
A colorless, volatile liquid with a sweet odor. It is considered the least toxic solvent in industry. It can occur naturally. It is used in the production of lubricating oils, chloroform, pharmaceuticals, pesticides, paints, varnishes and lacquers. If present in water, it is more likely to volatilize or biodegrade before bioaccumulating or adsorbing to sediments. Acetone will also readily volatilize and biodegrade in soil. It is also a common laboratory contaminant, so its presence in a sample does not always indicate its presence in the environment. Synonyms - Dimethylketone and 2-propanone.
-- Environmental Terms Glossary
   (U.S. Military)
 
 
 
Additive: changes the specifications of the base it is added to
 
Complete vaporization of fuel is far from perfect in today's cars and trucks. A certain amount of residual fuel in most engines remains liquid in the hot chamber. In order to be fully combusted, the fuel must be fully vaporized.

Surface tension presents an obstacle to vaporization. For instance the energy barrier from surface tension can sometimes force water to reach 300 degrees Fahrenheit before it vaporizes. Similarly with gasoline.

Acetone drastically reduces the surface tension. Most fuel molecules are sluggish with respect to their natural frequency.  Acetone has an inherent molecular vibration that "stirs up" the fuel molecules, to break the surface tension.  This results in a more complete vaporization with other factors remaining the same.  More complete vaporization means less wasted fuel, hence the increased gas mileage from the increased thermal efficiency.

That excess fuel was formerly wasted past the rings or sent out the tailpipe but when mixed with acetone it gets burned, though the engine still thinks it is running straight gas.

Acetone allows gasoline to behave more like the ideal automotive fuel which is PROPANE. The degree of improved mileage depends on how much unburned fuel you are presently wasting. You might gain 15 to 35-percent better economy from the use of acetone. Sometimes even more.

How Much to Use

Add in tiny amounts from about one part per 5000 to one part per 3000, depending on the vehicle -- just a few ounces per ten gallons of gas.  This comes to between 0.0003 % to 0.0025 % acetone maximum or approximately 1/15th of one-percent. Note that is around .78 cc per liter or one ounce per 10 gallons. Not more than three oz. per 10 gallons.

[eldar]

I remember being on a site called mpgresearch.com or something like that and they talked about this a lot.
Seems that in cages, it did seem to help in the summer, however winter was different. Some people reported lower economy and some did not change.
Now this was close to 2 years ago when I looked at this so things may have changed.
I do not know what the effect would be on a carbureted engine but there might be something there as well.

The site is still there, I just checked.

[WFO]

I remember being on a site called mpgresearch.com or something like that and they talked about this a lot.
Seems that in cages, it did seem to help in the summer, however winter was different. Some people reported lower economy and some did not change.
Now this was close to 2 years ago when I looked at this so things may have changed.
I do not know what the effect would be on a carbureted engine but there might be something there as well.

The site is still there, I just checked.

I posted that link before i read all of it ( long read BTW) but i fould this.

No Issues with the Engine Parts

I have soaked carburetor parts in acetone for months and even years to see if there is any deterioration. Any parts made to run with gasoline will work with acetone just fine. I presently have parts soaking in 1, 2, 5, and 10 % acetone/gasoline mixes as well as just gasoline. That is 20 to 200 times too much just to be sure. The 30R7 rated parts are in perfect condition. All my tests have been run with Texaco gasoline. I tested the gas stations in my area to FIRST find the best gasoline BEFORE putting acetone in the tank. But I have no idea from a pragmatic view what other gasolines do except that when I attempt to use them, my MPG drops like a rock. So for purely monetary reasons, I run the best available gasoline. When my dyno is built this summer, I will test all the gasolines in my area and publish the results on the web. I hear from engineers out West that Chevron gas is very good. I used it and it was fine during trips to California. I attach more credence to engineers who report things of interest to me because of their training and knowledge of testing methods. You may want to look up Science and Testing Methods in my site.

In early 2004, a SmartGas reader in New York State filled three bottles with: pure acetone, part acetone/part gasoline and straight gasoline. Into these he placed O-rings, pump diaphragms, plastic fittings, hose parts and other neoprene/n-buna stuff. He duped my experiments from back in the 50s. Months later he told me the pure acetone bottle was slightly darkened and some vinyl parts swelled. Dave had carefully marked all the parts beforehand. He dried the parts to mike them again and noted after six months that the growth was about two-percent to five-percent in the bottles with gasoline, which was well within limits. Almost unnoticeable. He put the stuff back into the respective bottles where it may still be today. Dave has a background in physics and engineering. I suggest testing parts as mentioned above, in 1, 2, 5, and 10 % mixes of gasoline and acetone. This is up to 200 times more concentrated than what we use in real life. No sense being ridiculous.

He believes that everyone should do their own testing and not listen to the prejudiced opinions or words of others. There is way too much misinformation out there.

[Tower]

Modern fuels with ethanol already use acetone as a solvent for both the alcohol and the gasoline, in this way facilitating their mixing.  Otherwise, ethyl alcohol would not easily mix with gasoline and would separate over time.

This applied to parafin fuels as far back as I can recall, from nitromethane to alcohol dragsters.

[WFO]

This is the best list of ingredients i can find

Gasoline (86290-81-5) 100 %
Benzene (71-43-2) 0.1 - 4.9 (0.1 - 1.3 reformulated gasoline)
n-Butane (106-97-8) < 10 %
Ethyl Alcohol (Ethanol) (64-17-5) 0 - 10 %
Ethyl benzene (100-41-4) < 3 %
n-Hexane (110-54-3) 0.5 to 4 %
* Methyl-tertiary butyl ether (MTBE) (1634-04-4) 0 to 15.0 %
Tertiary-amyl methyl ether (TAME) (994-05-8) 0 to 17.2 %
Toluene (108-88-3) 1 - 25 %
1,2,4- Trimethylbenzene (95-63-6) < 6 %
Xylene, mixed isomers (1330-20-7) 1 - 15 %
A complex blend of petroleum-derived normal and branched-chain alkane, cycloalkane, alkene, and
aromatic hydrocarbons. May contain antioxidant and multifunctional additives. Non-oxygenated
Conventional Gasoline and RBOB do not have oxygenates (Ethanol or MTBE and/or TAME).


GASOLINE USUALLY WILL ALSO CONTAIN: olefins or alkenes,  (E.G. 1-pentene, 2-methyl-2-butene),  cycloalkanes or naphthenes: (E.G. cyclopentane, cyclohexane),  oxygenators (E.G. ethanol, ETBE),  octane enhancers,  aromatics,  blending agents,
preservatives,  fuel conditioners and stabilizers,  detergents, dyes 

http://www.fueltestkit.com/what_is_gasoline_e10.html

[kslrr]

My wife, daughter and I car pool about 160 miles a day in our '91 Subaru Legacy which has 215k miles.  It gets 26-27 mpg normally and I would either top off a half tank every day or run till the "low fuel" light came on and fill up every 2 days. It has a 14 gal tank.

Back in May I had discovered this acetone thing and searched the NET for about a week and found many sites and blogs arguing both sides.  Those that said it worked claimed a possible increase of 10% mpg.  So I started using acetone (actually a mix of 2oz acetone & 4oz Marvel's Mystery Oil) back on June 28th and kept a log of acetone/gas ratio and mpg.  

The first 2 1/2 tanks was with the acetone mix, the next 2 1/2 tanks without.  Then I continued adding the acetone mix, slowly increasing the acetone/gas ratio.

By July 18th, my results are:
actone/gas ratio range 0% to 0.16%
mpg range 24.78 to 28.00.  

The increase in mpg did not coincide with the addition of the acetone nor did the decrease in mpg coincide with there being no acetone.  When averaged out: without acetone mpg avg = 26.13, with acetone mpg avg = 26.32.  For me the results are inconclusive.  

Why did I use a mix of acetone and Marvell's?  Since the engine has many miles on it I wanted to add extra protection.  Now, maybe because the acetone was premixed with the MMO, it bonded to the MMO and was not able to mix/bind properly with the fuel not affecting the surface tension as much as straight acetone would.  I might try it again.

[WFO]

My wife, daughter and I car pool about 160 miles a day in our '91 Subaru Legacy which has 215k miles.  It gets 26-27 mpg normally and I would either top off a half tank every day or run till the "low fuel" light came on and fill up every 2 days. It has a 14 gal tank.

Back in May I had discovered this acetone thing and searched the NET for about a week and found many sites and blogs arguing both sides.  Those that said it worked claimed a possible increase of 10% mpg.  So I started using acetone (actually a mix of 2oz acetone & 4oz Marvel's Mystery Oil) back on June 28th and kept a log of acetone/gas ratio and mpg.  

The first 2 1/2 tanks was with the acetone mix, the next 2 1/2 tanks without.  Then I continued adding the acetone mix, slowly increasing the acetone/gas ratio.

By July 18th, my results are:
actone/gas ratio range 0% to 0.16%
mpg range 24.78 to 28.00.  

The increase in mpg did not coincide with the addition of the acetone nor did the decrease in mpg coincide with there being no acetone.  When averaged out: without acetone mpg avg = 26.13, with acetone mpg avg = 26.32.  For me the results are inconclusive.  

Why did I use a mix of acetone and Marvell's?  Since the engine has many miles on it I wanted to add extra protection.  Now, maybe because the acetone was premixed with the MMO, it bonded to the MMO and was not able to mix/bind properly with the fuel not affecting the surface tension as much as straight acetone would.  I might try it again.

Is that using the same gas (gas station) every fillup? reading the link it said with some stations milage stayed the same or decreased i would try another fuel source and see what you come up with. The link said Texaco, Chevron and Canadian Shell  had the bes results i think.

[kslrr]

I was using Costco primarily.  I might have used Chevron once or twice during this period.

[WFO]

I was using Costco primarily.  I might have used Chevron once or twice during this period.

I would say using another source of fuel made your finding inconclusive.

[kslrr]

I was using Costco primarily.  I might have used Chevron once or twice during this period.

I would say using another source of fuel made your finding inconclusive.

Just one tank of "different" fuel would affect the results?  Maybe, but I think it was due to me premixing the acetone with the MMO.

[WFO]

I was using Costco primarily.  I might have used Chevron once or twice during this period.

I would say using another source of fuel made your finding inconclusive.

Just one tank of "different" fuel would affect the results?  Maybe, but I think it was due to me premixing the acetone with the MMO.

Different stations have different gas


From the artical

Since the fuel from every gas station is different from the next, the MPG performance will also vary. Then there exist a wide variety of additive choices at the terminals that affect quality. Also other variables in the cars performance such as warm external temperature versus cold external temperature, using the AC or not, headlights or not, incline of drive, etc.  Try to eliminate as many of these variable as possible in your comparative testing.

Be consistent where you buy your gasoline because different gasolines vary tremendously. The best gas and the worst gas in your neighborhood will likely have a 30-percent spread in mileage. Same for diesel fuel. In my experience with repeated test results, I found that Texaco, Chevron and Canadian Shell deliver excellent gasoline mileage. Try to keep down the number of variables wherever you gas up by using the same station, same pump, same grade or same octane before testing. This is important.


I agree about the MMO

[Tower]

WFO, not sure what that ingredient list is showing with respect to acetone.

As far as I can tell from that list, gasoline is comprised (plus or minus a few % points) primarily of:

- 75% aromatic hydrocarbons (benzenes, alkanes and alkenes)
- 20% oxygenators (alcohols, ketones, parafins, olefins)
-   5% additives (hexavalent solvents as bonding agents, detergents, isomers - as lubricants, toluenes - as dryers,etc)
- trace additives (minerals , dyes, etc)

Acetone is a ketone, that is also used as a drying agent, and solvent in gasoline.

[WFO]

WFO, not sure what that ingredient list is showing with respect to acetone.

As far as I can tell from that list, gasoline is comprised (plus or minus a few % points) primarily of:

- 75% aromatic hydrocarbons (benzenes, alkanes and alkenes)
- 20% oxygenators (alcohols, ketones, parafins, olefins)
-   5% additives (hexavalent solvents as bonding agents, detergents, isomers - as lubricants, toluenes - as dryers,etc)
- trace additives (minerals , dyes, etc)

Acetone is a ketone, that is also used as a drying agent, and solvent in gasoline.

I was just trying to see if acetone was on the list of ingredients already.

[Tower]

Ah, well the answer then is yes.
 It already represents about 4%-8% of modern alcohol gasolines.

edit:  ethyl ether is sometimes used instead of acetone as they are very similar in how they work, with ethyl ether having a higher impact on octane than acetone.

[WFO]

Ah, well the answer then is yes.
 It already represents about 4%-8% of modern alcohol gasolines.

Ok i would now like to know what the difference in those ketones is and does acetone do some they don't in a stronger consentration?

[markjenn]

No credible scientific evidence has shown acetone improves mileage.  The scientific principle doesn't make sense either - it's junk science.  IOW, snake oil.  If you believe in acetone, then you definitely want to use fuel catalysts, fuel magnets, and a tornado vortex generator as well and your mileage will go through the roof.

- Mark

[WFO]

Iam not supporting acetone iam just posting all the info i can get my hands on and ask questions anyways heres a bunch of topics on the subject.

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Acetone_as_a_Fuel_Additive

[eldar]

Junk science is what people ,who have drank the oil companies koolaid, call research.
Anyone doing a test in this fashion is doomed to fail. It does not matter if you use the same station, same pump, blah blah blah. Why? Gas mixes are never completely constant and never always come from the same refinery thus there are always variables. Also, as seasons change, the composition of gas changes. In nd as well as any other areas that get cold, there is a "summer fuel" and a "winter fuel". USE GAS not this ethanol crap.

If you want to do a proper test you need to get a large tank that holds a couple hundred gallons. Fill it ALL at one place.
from there, you need to purge ALL fuel from your test bed and then carefully meter the fuel that is put in the tank AND gas cans. When you do the mix, you must remove the exact number of ounces you are adding so the volume stays the same.
Now load the gas cans in the SECOND car, yes a second car as the weight must stay the exact same too.
now drive till you run out of gas. NO idling if at all possible as that will throw off results cause idle time can vary.
Once you run out of gas completely, you will be surprised at how long vapors can last, fill the tank with the mixed gas.
Drive till you run out again. No compare your mileage and see if there is a change. Now you may need to run the mixed gas a few times to see any results. depends on vehicle.
You must also keep every variable as close as possible, even things like temp and air speed.  obviously a track is best as the road is always the same.

I do not believe this is junk science as some might cause they do not want to, but I do believe different cars will behave differently. Your state of tune will also effect this. Poorly tuned cars will suck no matter what.

[Patrick]

Different stations and different brands do not sell different gasoline. It is all the same. All gasoline in Austin of every brand comes from the same refineries in Corpus Christi. All stations of every brand get their gas from the same refineries.

The only difference between the different brands are the additives added to each brand at the tank farms after they gasoline leaves the refinery.

Patrick

[eldar]

Still different additives though AND the levels of those additives will change according to season.
So to do a test like this, you have to get all your gas at one time AND use it in a short timeframe otherwise the gas deteriorates and the burn properties change.

[deerslayer]

People that think that all the different brands of gasoline are "different" don't have a clear understanding of the gasoline distribution process. If you have a fuel depot nearby and can view it without appearing to be a terrorist casing the place, you may find it very informative. ie, you will see a steady stream of tankers coming out that have filled up with the same spigot and have a myriad of brand names painted on the trucks...

One other issue. I don't intend to weigh in on the claimed mileage improvement with acetone issue but do differ with the innocuous characteristics they attributed to it. It is the primary ingredient in fingernail polish remover and a primary component in laquer thinner. So if you spill any of this on a lacquer paint job it'll be bad.

One common use of acetone is that it is used in acetylene tanks to absorb the gas into. Guess it keeps it safer as acetylene as a gas under pressure is pretty unstable stuff....

[eldar]

Different tankers do not mean much. They could still be headed to the same stations. For example, conoco branded gas will go to any conoco station BUT is not carried by conoco trucks, it is carried by independent trucking companies.
Different brands use their own additive packages. So just cause the trucks have different names does not mean it is bound for completely different stations.

Also I HAVE gone through refineries, this is how I know that they use different formulations for different times of the year.

[johnny_from_bel]

Real science says that the calorific value of acetone is 29000 kJ/kg
and that of gasoline is 47300 kJ/kg

Adding acetone would actualy decrease your milage.

[markjenn]

Real science says that the calorific value of acetone is 29000 kJ/kg
and that of gasoline is 47300 kJ/kg

The premise is not that the acetone adds any energy to the fuel mix, it is that it affects the liquid surface tension of the mix such that it is atomized better and burns more completely.

The main problem with this premise is that all modern engines are extremely efficient with respect to completely combusting their mixtures - if they were not, they would emit unacceptable levels of hydrocarbons in their exhaust.  So even if acetone did change the way gasoline is atomized (no data whatsoever that it does BTW), there are no significant gains in combustion efficiency to be had.

This "incomplete combustion resulting in poor fuel mileage" hypothesis is compelling to some.  It must be because it is the same premise used by the folks who developed fuel magnets, fuel catalysts, tornado vortex generators, and the 100 mpg carburetors that were developed forty years ago and are being kept off the market by "big oil".

- Mark

[lordmoonpie]

...and you can add to that fact that using acetone neat is going to accelerate wear of rubber parts, may damage plastics and paint if you drip some in the mixing process and to be honest, having seen an acetone flash fire where the vapour caught light, I wouldn't want a large amount of it hanging around my home. The amount that my wife has in her nail polish remover is more than enough! 

[eldar]

The main problem with this premise is that all modern engines are extremely efficient with respect to completely combusting their mixtures - if they were not, they would emit unacceptable levels of hydrocarbons in their exhaust.  So even if acetone did change the way gasoline is atomized (no data whatsoever that it does BTW), there are no significant gains in combustion efficiency to be had.

So then, explain how a powerchip will increase HP, torque, AND mpg? If an engine were so efficient as you say, it would do nothing. Yet they ARE PROVEN to work on BOTH gas and diesel engines.
Clearly engines are not set very efficient from the factory. I know the whole line delivered by automaker "experts" that say it causes issues but I have yet to see it or read anything credible on it.
Supposedly it advances timing and causes issues with using cheap gas. Funny, cheap gas can cause issues with engines that are NOT advanced.

I seem to remember a certain metro car getting almost 50 mpg, now we need a hybrid to do it?
Seems liek a step back, OH WAIT. cars are heavier cause of all the electrics in them. Sorry sonny but metros had AC and electrics too. "But they are tin cans and unsafe in a crash." Then way are you riding a motorcycle if you are worried about crashing?

Just covering argument bases here that commonly come up.

Fact is I believe as do thousands of others that the auto makers are ripping us off and making poor efficiency vehicles.

[mlinder]

Can be explained pretty easily, actually.

The chips don't make an engine burn 'more efficiently'.
Stock programming usually runs things a bit lean, to reduce emissions. Performance chips rectify this, as well as other parameters, such as ignition timing, cam timing, and the volume of air and fuel introduced to the combustion chambers as well as intake runner length on some of the more advanced engines.
This doesn't change a given engines efficiency in atomizing fuel and burning the AF mixture. It only changes how much and when it does so.

[eldar]

Changing how much though and when DOES effect the efficiency. I mean if you can put in less fuel and make more power, then you clearly were NOT running at the most efficient level.
When you talk efficiency, you are talking about overall output compared to input. How much or how often does not matter.

If engine A uses 10 gallons and put out 100 hp over 500 miles
Engine B uses 8 gallons and puts out 110 hp and goes 500 miles

Which one is more efficient?  Regardless of timing or anything else and driving and weight being equal, clearly engine B is more efficient.

It is really as simple as that.

[mlinder]

Depends on what you are measuring efficiency by.
Mileage, or specific output.

That's my point. Once the optimal AF ratio is reached in an engine, you can either a:) make more power or b:) get better gas mileage.
The chips will tend to richen up the mix a bit, to reach closer to stoimetric AF ratio (or whatever the engine is best at combusting, rich or lean), but the main increase in mileage OR power is generally taken care of by timing, cam timing, and other parameters.
The main compromise being made previously to the installation of a performance hip is not MPG or power, It is primarily for emissions.
Once that variable is removed from the equation, you have only specific output, and fuel efficiency to play with. One does not necessarily equal the other. 
 

[eldar]

Burning closer to the stoch rating produces LESS emissions though. If you burn to lean you produce bad stuff, if you burn rich you produce bad stuff. That is why most power plants try to burn their fuel at that level.

However bringing emissions into this is kinda skirting the subject. Greatest efficiency does not mean lowest emissions.

As we were talking about efficiency and not emissions, I would still be correct.
As most power programmers increase power AND mileage, clearly and engine is not at it most efficient.

[mlinder]

Not entirely.

Most engines are programmed to meet certain pollution requirements. This is NOT the most efficient (in terms of power OR mpg) AF ratio.
Simply 'fixing' this scenario gives both MPG and HP. But after this, increasing one or the other is much easier than increasing both.

[eldar]

But BOTH can be increased and it is common with power programmers. There are also programmers for diesel that do the same thing. 

[mystic_1]

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.


mystic_1

[mlinder]

But BOTH can be increased and it is common with power programmers. There are also programmers for diesel that do the same thing. 

That's what I said. Doing this changes the emissions (for the worse). ONCE this is done, then you chose power or MPG. Usually not both.

[eldar]

As they say you can have cheap, fast, and good but not all 3. I really wonder though if emissions really tanks though. Generally the more efficient something is, the less emission it creates. Now of course it may be worse but is it california worse or just a little.

[eldar]

Actually there is mystic. My boss is bringing me a free lunch this month in fact. So you are wrong!