Author Topic: A question for all you ring-ding experts. (Read 8534 times)

nickjtc · « **on:** May 04, 2008, 06:29:29 PM »

I've got a lead on a '74 TS185 Suzuki which has direct oil injection. If a person uses modern semi- or fully-synthetic two stroke oil does the injection have to be re-'jetted' to reduce the amount of oil being squirted into the mix? Apparently if you're doing 'pre-mix' you can reduce the ratio of oil to gas.....so would this also apply to direct injection?

Yes, I know I'm totally ignorant of things two-stroke.

RRRToolSolutions · « **Reply #1 on:** May 04, 2008, 07:13:11 PM »

Nick,

Yes, you can run the good stuff and it won't hurt a thing. I have a bunch of 2-strokes - both in outboard and motorcycle configuration. Never believe that hype about reduction of ratio. At ratios of 25~50 :1 (depending on engine), there is so little oil to cushion the crank bearings, the big and little end bearings, and the rings - don't mess around trying to cut-back of ratio. More is better.

Oils in a 4 stroke see hard, severe service. They are exposed to high temps inside the cylinder walls and valve train for thousands of miles - 2-stroke oil is inside doing it's job for 1/84th of a second at high rpm - in and out that quick. The transmission is a completely seperate reservoir and requires a different lube altogether. The only real advantage I get out of synthetic is less smoke and it leaves less varnish behind during that combustion. I do use it, but not for the incorrect claim of being able to reduce useage. Think about a 50:1 dilution and 1/84th of a second - how can you do with less? Yes, there are engines that do use less, but that is typically where you have water cooling.

Run 2-cycle oil made for air-cooled engines (not TC-W) of any kind you want, but don't change the manufacture's ratio. That ratio does have a margin of safety - sure, but it's there because of the needle bearings and surface areas that rely solely on the small traces of oil in the feul/air charge. Also, leave the injection system in-place. Premix has two problems - First you have to mis it for the worst-case conditions (excess oil at mid/light loads) and Second when you close/shut the throttle - there is "no fuel" coming into the engine right? - you guessed it - no oil either. It only works well for race applications where the throttle is normally "pinned" the entire time - not for street riding. The oil injection systems, even back in the 60's and 70's were tied to the throttle cable - adjusting metering between 20:1 at full load to 100:1 at 1/4 throttle.

Hope I've helped.

Regards,
Gordon

nickjtc · « **Reply #2 on:** May 04, 2008, 08:16:23 PM »

Thank you very much indeed for that Gordon.

So I guess the next question is: if the oil tank is half full of 2 stroke oil of unknown origin or type, is it safe/possible to mix it with any other type, or should it be drained, flushed and filled with the type that will be used from now on?

crazypj · « **Reply #3 on:** May 04, 2008, 08:17:42 PM »

I'm not certain but doesn't that have real CCI? (crankcase/cylinder injection) If there are oil pipes going into the case they oil main bearings and removing pump can cause bearing failure.
I haven't worked on them since mid/late eighties so cant remember which ones had full system and which just had oil line into intake port
The other thing is, if you add oil to gas you WILL get a lean mixture in direct proportion to oil added, the jet can only flow so much liquid, be it straight gas or oil /gas mix. If its running a correct mixture with gas, adding oil will lean it out .
Burning oil creates heat and can cause seizure, adding more oil makes it seize quicker
PJ

RRRToolSolutions · « **Reply #4 on:** May 04, 2008, 08:23:50 PM »

Nick, for the price of 1-2 quarts, I'd replace it. I say that not because they won't mix, but because you don't know if someone put marine oil or some non-air-cooled 2 stroke oil in there.

Me, I use BelRay SI-7, but Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki all sell good stuff. - just be sure you find "air-cooled" oil - it will have additives designed for the higher temps not found in water-cooled outboards and LC bikes.

Regards,
Gordon

nickjtc · « **Reply #5 on:** May 04, 2008, 08:28:16 PM »

Thanks to both of you.

I'm not planning on discarding the injection system, since it has worked well to date, apparently. The whole thing may be moot anyway because the seller wants top dollar for the bike....certainly more than I am prepared to pay. It's a '74 with about 2,000 miles on the clock. Apart from a bit of crazing of the clear coat on the tank the bike is in excellent shape. Even has the original tyres on it....not that they will be of any use now.

I'm trying to get the missis interested in this whole dualsporting lark and this would be a perfect fun bike for me her.

heffay · « **Reply #6 on:** May 04, 2008, 08:28:37 PM »

i had a tc125 of similar vintage w/ a questionable oil delivery system... like IL says, more is better, i'd run the minimum mix in the gas and let the oiler do the rest. i think in the end, i bumped up the ratio and considered the oiler defunct... GOD DAMM HOODLUMS STOLE THE BIKE THOUGH!
once you get used to mixing the fuel and listening to the motor at certain ratios... the hand calibrated pour sometimes takes over

Green550F · « **Reply #7 on:** May 30, 2008, 07:20:07 PM »

got a Yamaha HS1 a few years back. Actually found 30 weight in the oil tank!
Yup, if you aren't sure, FLUSH and refill!

(you should have seen the scoring on those pistons!)

bill440cars · « **Reply #8 on:** May 30, 2008, 08:44:10 PM »

When did they actually come out with oil for 2 strokes? I knew they had it, but back in the early 60's, we ran 30wt. mixed in the gas tank. Seems like we mixed 6oz. (a coke bottle)of oil to a gallon of gas.
Of course, at that time, I hadn't even seen a bike with oil injection. My Granddad was real skeptical about that.

Matter of fact he wasn't too high on V-8 engines and automatic transmissions either.

Later on, Bill

TomC · « **Reply #9 on:** May 31, 2008, 11:52:42 AM »

Hi Bill
"When did they actually come out with oil for 2 strokes?"
I do not remember what I used in my AllState/Vespa in 1964. In 1968 I used Full-Bore two stroke oil in my 175 Bultaco until I found two stroke oil at Sears.
TomC in Ohio

RRRToolSolutions · « **Reply #10 on:** May 31, 2008, 02:03:58 PM »

No, they had it back in the 60's. Here are my original 1966 YM1 Yamaha 305cc Cross Country and 1968 Kawasaki 350cc Avenger - both sport Autolube injection systems (says so on the right side covers of both) - and they called for injector oil. My 1962 Johnson 18 horse outboard called for TWC oil, but my 1958 Johnson 3hp calls for 30 weight - so I'm going to guess somewhere between 1959 and 1961, someone came up with an ashless oil that would resist coagulation and help prevent rings sticking in the pistons - the #1 problem with the 2 stoke engines allowed to set-up. Now, I also know that some poor, going broke scooter and outboard companies never changed their instructions so I'm sure Allstate and others had 30 weight labeling on their machines after 1962.

Regards,
Gordon

754 · « **Reply #11 on:** June 01, 2008, 08:22:13 AM »

Harley sold 2 cycle oil in the forties..

bill440cars · « **Reply #12 on:** June 01, 2008, 09:15:23 AM »

Quote from: 754 on June 01, 2008, 08:22:13 AM

Harley sold 2 cycle oil in the forties..

I'm guessing, for the Hummers and what ever they called the earlier ones, huh?

Then there were the Scats and Pacers in the 60's
Maybe that's why we (my Granddad, Dad & I used 30wt. in the Indian Lances (2stroke 150cc during the period that Indians were rebadged Enfields. Don't remember exactly who built the Lances. There were 2 versions.)also the Jawas and the BSA Bantams, didn't want to go to the Harley shop!

Actually, I used 30wt oil because my Dad and Granddad told me to. Don't know if it was the cost or what? I just remember carrying a 6oz. Coke bottle with me in case I needed to buy gas.

754 · « **Reply #13 on:** June 01, 2008, 09:20:58 AM »

A lot of the Brit tanks had a measuring tube on the bottom of the gas cap, hard to go wrong..

I bet if I looked in my books I could find 2 stroke oil from the 20,s..

Green550F · « **Reply #14 on:** August 06, 2008, 11:30:25 AM »

I've got a Honda Hobbit moped in the garage with an oil measuring cup in the tank cap! I'd never seen that before. I either had oil injected 2 strokes or limited use dirt bikes that wouldn't've been ridden to the pump. Cool that the bike makers thought of a measuring cup you couldn't lose!

ColinMc · « **Reply #15 on:** August 07, 2008, 07:38:24 AM »

I've owned a few Honda MB-5's still have one...had a Derbi GPR50R(heavily modified) recently that I got rid of. Pretty much on any of the small displacement two strokes i've owned i dump the factory injection system and go with premix. Ever since my first Honda MB5 had an oiling system that crapped the bed, I figured premix was the way to go. I rejet to compensate for the oil also going through the carb "using" some of the space that would be gas. Looking at getting a Yamaha R5 a friend found a few weeks ago that needs some work...I LOVE two-strokes! Now to find that street legal Aprilia RS250 somewhere in the NorthEast...

crazypj · « **Reply #16 on:** August 08, 2008, 10:11:41 AM »

The apprillia is only a modified Suzuki RG250 with new paint

markjenn · « **Reply #17 on:** August 08, 2008, 11:11:05 AM »

I don't think anybody on this thread has addressed the question originally asked - can you run today's 2S oils designed for premix systems in an injector bike? I'd think so, but I've never seen anything definitive. Do they still make oils specifically designed for injector systems? They used to.

The trend today is to remove and cap injector systems and rely on premix. I think this is usually done because the injector systems are considered unreliable after all these years, especially after sitting for long period with old oil in them. So to simplify things and eliminate something that could go wrong with tragic consequences, people go with premix. But you do have to be careful - some injector systems are designed such that they deliver oil directly to critical bearings that will not be lubed properly by premix. (Don't know about your TS185.) Again, more research is in order.

Personally, I'm a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" sort of person and the Japanese injector systems were pretty reliable. If the system is in good working order, I'd continue to use it with a modern synthetic two-stroke oil and leave the oil delivery rate unchanged - if the new oil does a better job, so be it, but I wouldn't attempt to reduce the ratio because I thought the oil was better or because the oil mfg recommends one of those crazy-lean 60:1 or 100:1 ratios. (I'm not much of a believer that very lean ratios are a good idea anyway - I've run 32:1 to 40:1 on my two-stroke dirt bikes, even with modern oils - everything I've seen shows piston and ring wear goes up pretty quickly on any bike run leaner than 40:1 no matter what the miracle oil says.) If the system has been sitting, I'd clean it out though, and if I had any doubts about it, I'd run premix as a backup for a period until I confirmed the injector system was working properly.

Good luck,

- Mark

RRRToolSolutions · « **Reply #18 on:** August 08, 2008, 12:00:00 PM »

Actually Mark, I thought I did answer him. I suggest leaving the injection in place and do not consider using less - so re-jetting to limit flow/consumption was not desirable. That was 3 moths ago, hopefully he's been riding the snot out of it since then.

I went and looked at the fiche for a 74 TS185 and it has injection to the crankcase. I'm reasonably sure that's feeding the bearings and the induction tract at it's base.

Here is a photo of my H2 and the 74/75 models have 3 lines running straight to the crank and 3 to the carburetors. These are not designed for use without the oil pumps.

Gordon

tomkimberly · « **Reply #19 on:** August 09, 2008, 09:24:24 PM »

Use the pump! Anyone who tells you they fail does not know what they are talking about. The injection pumps on these bikes are very reliable!

Tom

crazypj · « **Reply #20 on:** August 10, 2008, 05:31:34 PM »

Quote from: markjenn on August 08, 2008, 11:11:05 AM

I don't think anybody on this thread has addressed the question originally asked - can you run today's 2S oils designed for premix systems in an injector bike? .
- Mark

Actually it has been addressed more than once in this thread.
As mentioned with the Kawasaki triple post if it has crankcase/cylinder oil injection its NOT A SMART MOVE to run premix.
I've only ever had one engine failure due to oil pump, Yamaha DT125E that had injector oil tank filled with water. After everything was cleaned up it worked fine (the oil was gelled and too thick to pump)
The TS185 is a very reliable engine, even when modified to early (air cooled) RM125 spec.
I has an oil slinger plate on crankshaft which prevents oil getting to big end and left main bearing if its run on pre-mix only.
I haven't worked on one since early 80's when I was in Suzuki dealership
PJ

Green550F · « **Reply #21 on:** August 12, 2008, 06:17:03 PM »

My dad had a 1973 TS185. Never had an issue with the oil injection in the 30 years before he sold it. I'd call that reliable!

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Author Topic: A question for all you ring-ding experts. (Read 8534 times)