Topic: Another ticking top end thread.. UPDATE (I Guess there is orifice's blocked)

[bwaller]

okay..

Well I guess I lied.. Took it around this afternoon. And it's still ticking from the right side.

Took the valve tappet cover off the left side, oil spewing out everywhere, looks good..

Took off the right side, saw nothing but smoke. Revved it a bit, and saw no oil like I did from the left side.

No I suppose there are some orifices closed up.

If anyone remembers my last posts I got the engine after it has been sitting outside uncovered. I changed the oil after about 50 miles and had all kinds of crud and bugs that was in the oil pan and screen. So, I'm sure the it's blocked up somewhere..

How the heck to I clear it out, aside from ripping the engine all apart again?

Do yourself a favour, completely disassemble the engine and clean all internal parts. Use varsol, compressed air, whatever it takes to be absolutely sure there is no "crud & bugs" and loose debris before reassembling. Don't look for a shortcut, this leads to engine failure & we have seen this a lot lately!

Plus it'll help you better bond with your engine! 

[JAG]

I've have had so much bonding with my engine, there are no words to describe it...

The only thing I haven't disassembled was the bottom half of the engine. I felt it was a little bit beyond me to undertake such a task.

I guess I know what I'll be doing this weekend.

Although, I am going to try and use some mystery oil and some compressed air before I go about disassembling the whole "she-bang" there has got to be an easier way to unclog some holes, w/o complete disassembly.  Maybe some drano?!!

I'm not discrediting y'alls ideas what so ever, in fact I welcome the opinions from everyone; Believe I need it. If it wasn't for this place, I would have given up a long time ago..  In fact, I will probably do everything I can possible to fix this ordeal. If it doesn't work it's going up for sale. I've been working on it for way to long and I haven't enjoyed it one bit.. Sorry for the rant. It's becoming more and more easy to become discouraged.

Any suggestions by anyone on preventing something like this before closing the engine up?

Thanks for the post BungHole, that does give me an idea on where to look for these wonderous clogged holes..

[mystic_1]

The oil control orifices are pressed into the head, below the cam towers.  You can remove them for cleaning.  See the pics in the following thread:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=38682.msg398781#msg398781

mystic_1

[bradweingartner]

I'm all for shortcuts too... but, look at it this way. Your diligence may have saved you from major catastrophy in this case. Chances are whatever is clogging it up isn't going to respond to solvents, and whatever clogged that has the potential to clog something else too down the line. Bottom end bearing journal? Who knows.

But you can either put the time in now, or put the time in later. Except now you have a salvagable chunk. Down the road it may be destroyed, or require a lot of machine work to bring it back to life. It's your bike man, of course, but that's scary without at least taking it mostly apart and flushing out all of the oil galleys. My 2 cents.

[bryanj]

Sorry to dissapoint but there is no way to unclog without a strippdown ----Total----and you need to be medicaly clean on rebuild.

Those jets clean out with 2 twisted strands of fine electrical flex I.E 'Kin tiny and can block with oil sludge never mind bits of external crap

[bunghole]

JAG,

Don't give up!

I've torn down the bottom end and its not as bad as you think.  Get some shoebox size Rubbermaid tubs and put each assembly into one.  You'll be fine.  There aren't really any tiny bits that try to get lost on you and the fiche and this forum will get you back together.

Although, I haven't fired mine up yet, so who knows if I did it right 

[JAG]

Well I got the head off and pulled out the oil "jet" orifice, and it was clogged with paint chips, where I accidentally painted the area the oil filter screws onto. However there was only one oil control orifice, on the left side 3-4 pistons. On the right side 1-2, there wasn't one. On my other head there were two, but when I went to replace the one that was missing with the donor head, it wouldn't fit. Were these made to only have one "jet" on one side?

I went ahead a pulled the block off, thinking I might tackle the jugs, but what do you guys think? If that ONE was clogged could that be the only culprit? It seems pretty intimidating (uncharted territory) to start messing with those jugs. Is it simple, i.e. just undoing those 40 some-odd bolts, cleaning out the area  and buttoning her back up? Or is there more to it?

I shot air throught the camshaft holders ports, and air shot through quite easily, no blockages there. Was that my only problem, or do you think I really need to go ahead and take the whole thing apart?

Thanks Again.

[bryanj]

There should be an orifice on each side and pull it down to clean out ALL the crap

[Hush]

Damn bad luck Jag, but looks like you have solved your own puzzle with the paint chips causing the blockage.
Why can't we just have something like you do for a car, tip in some engine flush, run for a few miles then dump the lot and refill with new oil--good to go?
Too simple?----------darn thought so.

[JAG]

Damn bad luck Jag, but looks like you have solved your own puzzle with the paint chips causing the blockage.
Why can't we just have something like you do for a car, tip in some engine flush, run for a few miles then dump the lot and refill with new oil--good to go?
Too simple?----------darn thought so.

Oh man, thanks Hush! I totally agree.

There should be an orifice on each side and pull it down to clean out ALL the crap

There are the other valve/head (Donor) there were two/ Every time I have looked at this one/head, there have only been one. Which has lead to the idea the only one side was blocked, the side that had the "jet". That jet was blocked, giving me smoke though those valve tappets, on that side. Through the one that wasn't blocked, which didn't have that "jet", was spewing oil everywhere.

[mystic_1]

There should be two orifices (orifii?)





Be careful, my understanding is that the constriction at this point (accomplished by a plain drilled hole on pre-K3 models) is to ensure that adequite pressure is supplied to the main bearings.  Without this constriction all your pressure is going up to the camshaft.

With a blocked orifice, your cam bearings were getting no oil except for whatever splashed over from the other side.  Check your cam and holder on the blocked side for damage.

mystic_1

[JAG]

Well it has been awhile since my last post, it has taken me awhile to get back to the project at hand.

I completely tore down the engine, and had really found no more debris, but atleast it is "cleaner". I'm starting to button everything back together, I am just waiting for a friend of my to bring over the torque wrench.

The question I have is, before I was only running with ONE 'oil control orifice', the one that was subsequently clogged, the previous owner must have never replaced the other one. So I was wondering how big a deal is it to not run with either orifice in place, and just allow it blow wide open? The orifice's themselves are hidden underneath the cam holders, so how much do they actually contribute to the overall flow of oil??

Thanks again guys, hope to get back on the road soon before it gets to cold here in tennessee.

Jonathan

[mystic_1]

Like I said above, the orifices create a constriction in the upper branch of the oil system (camshaft and valvetrain), to make sure that adequate pressure makes it to the lower branch of the oil system (crankshaft bearings).  Think of it this way.  A garden hose with a small pinhole in it will still deliver plenty of pressure to the end of the hose.  A garden hose with a 1 inch hole in it will deliver almost no pressure to the end of the hose.

If you omit the orifices then you'll have low oil pressure at the main bearings, and since oil pressure is the only thing keeping those parts from welding themselves together....


mystic_1

[bunghole]

Well it has been awhile since my last post, it has taken me awhile to get back to the project at hand.

I completely tore down the engine, and had really found no more debris, but atleast it is "cleaner". I'm starting to button everything back together, I am just waiting for a friend of my to bring over the torque wrench.

The question I have is, before I was only running with ONE 'oil control orifice', the one that was subsequently clogged, the previous owner must have never replaced the other one. So I was wondering how big a deal is it to not run with either orifice in place, and just allow it blow wide open? The orifice's themselves are hidden underneath the cam holders, so how much do they actually contribute to the overall flow of oil??

Thanks again guys, hope to get back on the road soon before it gets to cold here in tennessee.

Jonathan

So how'd the teardown go?  Any surprises or interesting things to note?  I'm draggin' butt on mine, but my wife is travelling this week, so I'm planning on getting some stuff done.

[JAG]

Everything went very smoothly, I didn't have any problems getting it apart or putting everything back together; I just did everything by the book.

When I got down to the jugs/casing, I didn't find any debris what so ever, so it sucks that I had to the extra time to see nothing significant, but atleast I know for sure now, and not later.

I'll get those oil control orifi back in there then, I agree with what you are saying, everything else on there is like it was (factory specs), might as well do it all the way, throughout.

I was going to try and find you on here BungHole to see how your project was going, it's been a while since I have heard anything about it. I've slacked off on mine, b/c I have just put so much more time/hours fixing it than I have actually riding the friggin thing..

THank you dearly for everyone's input, couldn't have done it w/o you guys.
Good luck Bung Hole on your project!!

Now let me go try and button this baby back up and ride the damn thing

[JAG]

Trying to torque everything down, I pulled out two studs that hold the cam holder in place- had to heli-coil them. Thankfully it went well.

I meant to ask, Should this be treated as a fresh rebuild? I.E. Do I have to go through the whole process over as far as setting the rings again? Also should I change the oik again frequently for the first hundred miles or so??

[martino1972]

officially you have to replace the rings onces they left the cylinder,but most people get away with that....
i would take it slow for the first 100 kilometer,then change oil and filter,and if sounding good,give her hell.....

[JAG]

Well That sounds good. I surely hope to god I don't have to break her back down to change out the rings.. There wasn't that many miles on them..

I'm about to drop some oil in her and fire it up and see how's she does..

Wish me luck..

[JAG]

I always hate the first start up. always meticulously going back over every screw, every wire. scared to hurt it..

It started up on the first tap of the starter button, w/o the use of choke~ Very shocked there.

Let it warm up (idling) for about 5 minutes, the oil gauge still showing about 35psi. Took it for a 5 mile loop, being gentle. It went through the gears really well, no sign of any lugging or missing. No cracking or tapping/ticking sounds anywhere.., Whew

But there is always a snag, as I took my trip I noticed oil seeping around the valve cover on the top fin, and coming back and hitting me in the leg; Seems as if I forgot to torque down the valve cover...  I really hope I can torque it down with my torque screwdriver W/O having to take it back out of the frame, but I don't think I will be that lucky.

Anybody have to do that before? And was successful in doing it ON the frame??

Also showed very good oil pressure, but after that trip looking down to see if the oil had dropped in the tank, I unscrewed the top to find some smoke. Usually my oil will smoke some after a good hard trip/run, but not after 5 miles almost nonstop anfd running it gently when it's 80 degrees outside..  Any thoughts there? Is there something wrong???

Thanks again fellas

[JAG]

Got the oil leak fixed around the valve cover~ did it on the frame, with ease.. 

Now to address the smoky oil after a short run.. I guess I'll run a search..

At any rate, another problem solved..... For now..   

[martino1972]

that's some good news........
now enjoy the trips before winter hit's...

here in alberta i get a window of a few hours where i can ride,for the rest too cold already...