Author Topic: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response  (Read 3676 times)

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Offline dboblet

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A thread to post 'novice' questions on how bikes respond, behave, work.
For instance:

Zipping down a curving mountian road why do you turn AWAY from the turn (as in turn the fork right to tighten up a left turn)?  I've seen moto cross vids where the rider cranks the wheel way way to the outside of the turn to make the turn.
It's so counter intuitive I can see why it causes a lot of novice crashes.

And

how is the weight distributed on the two wheels.  Obvioiusly the weight is mostly on the rear wheel withit's heavy shocks and springs and not the front forks with the light springs and hydrolics.

More??
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2008, 10:04:00 AM »
Because of the geometry of the front forks, when you turn the wheel one way, you move the center of gravity on the bike the other way.. The contact patch of the front tire moves to the OTHER side of the center of the bike. This makes the bike lean in the opposite direction. Theres more to it as well, but that's the start of the process.

As far as distribution, it just depends on the bike. I think the cb750's have pretty even weight distribution with a rider on it, and a bit front heavy without a rider.
Weight changes with a rider depending on type of handlebars and postion of rider, obviously.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 10:19:20 AM by mlinder »
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2008, 10:28:43 AM »
When considering weight distribution, don't forget to consider the dymanic case weight distribution when moving.  Under acceleration, most of the weight of the bike is on the rear wheel.  Under braking, most of the weight of the bike is on the front wheel.  In the extreme cases, wheelies and stoppies, weight is moved 100% onto one wheel :)

To add to was mlinder said as far as steering behavior, consider that the front wheel (and the rear for that matter) is a huge gyroscope.  Because of this, forces come into play that are somewhat non-intuitive.

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Offline mlinder

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2008, 10:32:36 AM »
When considering weight distribution, don't forget to consider the dymanic case weight distribution when moving.  Under acceleration, most of the weight of the bike is on the rear wheel.  Under braking, most of the weight of the bike is on the front wheel.  In the extreme cases, wheelies and stoppies, weight is moved 100% onto one wheel :)

To add to was mlinder said as far as steering behavior, consider that the front wheel (and the rear for that matter) is a huge gyroscope.  Because of this, forces come into play that are somewhat non-intuitive.

mystic_1

Yeah, wasn't going to get too much into the dynamic changes of weight with acceleration, braking, etc.
 Yes, the gyroscopic effects of the wheels also affects counter steering. It's why a motorcycle wants to go straight with no input to the handlebars. In situations of tank slappers or other weirdness, often just letting go of the handlebars will allow the bike to straighten itself out.
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Offline dboblet

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2008, 08:52:21 PM »
I would also like to know why when I'm in a tight turn and feel like I'm running out of room, rather than braking, which seems to exacerbate the feeling of loss of control, the thing to do is to accelerate and the bike seem suddenly more stable.  My buddy says the rear wheel 'bites' into the road and traction improves.  Not sure this is true though I can definitely 'feel' an increased bite. 
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Offline tsflstb

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2008, 09:48:25 PM »
I've crashed a couple of times thinking "Oh crap I'm going too fast" and grabbed the front brake in a corner.  It's just instinct, but it's the wrong thing to do.  Looking back, I know there was enough grip to make it if I hadn't panicked. 

If you're in a corner too hot you need all the grip you can muster to lean the bike over more.  Keeping the throttle cracked a bit settles the chassis and spreads the load between the two tires.  The hardest thing to learn is to just lean over more and trust the grip will be there.  A big empty parking lot is a good place to practice. 

There are times you really over cook it and you just look for a soft spot in the ditch to land.

These books do a good job of explaining things.


Offline Spikeybike

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2008, 10:02:42 PM »
fighting you natural instincts to stay vertical,
fighting what you've learned about cornering from cars,
fighting your urge to not speed up
loving the rush afterwards, and doing it again "priceless"

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2008, 01:33:12 AM »
just talked about this with a friend of mine,..
we are both fairly new to the bikes,and we both noticed that when we started a little while back,you could see on the rear tire,that it's only used in the centre...
now a few months later,we are both using the entire surface of the rear tire...
we take the same curvy road pretty frequent,and at first we slowed down for the corners and took em going no more then 50 miles an hour.....now these days we are cruising at 65 miles an hour,and getting into te same corners we are speeding up,for the "kick" of going fast and  under a steap angle...

i wonder who of us is gonne go too hot one day and lay it down.. ::) ::)

Offline mlinder

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2008, 07:17:44 AM »

i wonder who of us is gonne go too hot one day and lay it down.. ::) ::)

All of us.

Every....

Single...


One....





Just go down easily and try not to hit building, trees, or posts.
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Offline cafe750

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2008, 10:15:53 PM »
Like I tell people when I try and sell them safety gear...it's not if you fall over, its when... ;). Like has been said, adding a wee bit of throttle helps to settle the chassis, and slightly increase your ground clearance, so that you do have more room to lean her over...
"It's an old motorcycle, the wind is supposed to blow your head around, it's supposed to leak oil, the brakes should suck, and every now and then, it should scare you so bad you piss your pants."



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Offline dummkauf

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2008, 10:35:14 PM »
This is a book that I found most helpful when I was starting out.  It covers all of this and plenty more, and when you are done go look for "More Proficient Motorcycling"


Offline Kev Nemo

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2008, 05:57:45 AM »
ADVICE: If your heavy ass bike starts to tump over, let go of the bars right BEFORE it hits the ground to save your thumb knuckle/wrist! ;)
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Offline ryder60

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2008, 09:12:14 PM »
Your front tire has a specific amount of traction for the road or track surface.  If you are turning, assuming you are leaned over, and you close the throttle or touch the front brake you can go quickly from a 95% traction condition to a 110% traction condition and the front end will wash out at the 100% traction condition and you'll discover what low-siding is.  It will happen quickly.  The front end feels like it goes straight away from you while you keep thinking you should be turning.
Good riders can slide on their knee and stand the bike back up onto it's tire contact patch, but I can't.

Offline dboblet

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2008, 10:15:50 PM »
Sliding on your knee sounds rather... abrasive... I figure you are talking about those dirt track riders with the steel patches on their riding togs. 

Me, I have dyno guards on my bike and though mine are a bit scraped up on the sides from dumping the darned thing in my drive (35% grade with reverse camber on the switchback) I've not scraped the edges yet.  On my old KZ900 a few years ago, I had dyno guards (the KZ is a lot wider) and I used to grind the bottom edge of the bars through routinely over time.  Went through three sets actually.  I got tired of high-sideing the front wheel off the ground and took them off at one point.  I almost ground through the case so I put them back on.

Anyway, off topic.  I've noticed that when I apply the front brake, the bike straightens up and I have to lean extra into the curve to keep the angle and not drift into the next lane.  Is this a result of centrifugal action in some way?
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Offline ryder60

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2008, 08:30:26 AM »
Yes it's either centrifugal action or inertia that moves the bike where its weight wants to go.
I was talking about on the race track; it works the same on the road but you are not usually not wearing leathers with sliders and don't want to get a knee down on the road.  I also was not clear about what I was saying.  I should have said there are conditions when the bike slides that a good rider can stand it back up onto its contact patch but the front end washing out is not one of them.  When that happens you are a goner.

Offline MCRider

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2008, 10:21:44 AM »
I would also like to know why when I'm in a tight turn and feel like I'm running out of room, rather than braking, which seems to exacerbate the feeling of loss of control, the thing to do is to accelerate and the bike seem suddenly more stable.  My buddy says the rear wheel 'bites' into the road and traction improves.  Not sure this is true though I can definitely 'feel' an increased bite. 


Everyone has given great answers and the Keith Code books are great, the MSF Riding Course is a must for all riders as they cover the "press right (which is to say steer left) go right" countersteering.

To address your question it was explained to me as an issue of forces on a gyroscope. They always effect it at a 90 degree angle. So braking forces tend to stand the bike up. IF you absolutely have to brake in a turn, you must input more countersteering to simply maintain the same line. Usually a conscious effort as these things are not intuitive, takes training and practice.  As many have said accelerating forces tend to steer the bike down into the turn, or at least stabilize it. BUT, the three forces of braking, countersteering, and centrifugal will rapidly eat up available traction and down you go. Better to stay off the brakes and use available traction in countersteering. You don't have much choice on the centrifugal.

Also aggressive countersteering will scrub off a lot of speed without the negative "standup" gyroscope reponse that braking gives. Win Win  In Keith Code's book he says you have to practice staying off the brakes because the act of throwing the bike into a turn with aggressive countersteering will slow you so much, if you brake as well all of a sudden you're going too slow.

If you are too hot in the turn more often than not do not decelerate or brake, as this will stand the bike up, the physics of force on a gyroscope. hold steady or input a little, this will maintain or lean the bike more and ... as a racer once told me...trust your tires.

Have you ever held a bicycle wheel out in front of you and have someone spin it. Then input some force into the axle and the wheel will respond 90% out. Its really weird.

Other important points are "target fixation". Your bike WILL GO where you look. If you're too hot in the turn and you look to the outside that's where you will end up. If you look down and out the inside of the turn, you'll stay on line faaster than you thought possible.  I once read Kenny Roberts teaching how to flat track: "You look at the hay bales, you'll be in the hay bales". I was a lot better rider after reading that.

Soooo many tragic crashes occur from lack of knowledge and training, not because it was a particularly dangerous situation.

Then, sometimes we just fall down.  :(
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 10:39:26 AM by MCRider1 »
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2008, 10:46:08 AM »
More on countersteering: the most common MC accident with another vehicle is the oncoming car turning left in front of you, crossing your vision from left to right.

If you rely on instinct, you want to turn left to pass around the rear of the car. But what happens when you turn left? You go right! So you track the exact direction of the obstacle you try to avoid and BAM! Too quick to think about.

To initiate an abrupt swerve to the left, you steer right. Takes knowledge and training and practice, so you don't have to think about it. Set up some cones in a parking lot.
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Offline dboblet

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2008, 02:54:11 PM »
this last one sounds like fun to practice.
I wonder, after reading all this, just how many MC accidents are caused by people relying on 'instinct' instead of training.  I rode for years two decades ago, and find myself having to re-learn a lot.... which is actually the point of this whole thread.
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Offline dboblet

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2008, 02:55:10 PM »
incidentally, I haven't been able to find those books locally. 
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Offline MJL

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2008, 03:55:56 PM »
I would also like to know why when I'm in a tight turn and feel like I'm running out of room, rather than braking, which seems to exacerbate the feeling of loss of control, the thing to do is to accelerate and the bike seem suddenly more stable.  My buddy says the rear wheel 'bites' into the road and traction improves.  Not sure this is true though I can definitely 'feel' an increased bite. 


Do you mean running out of steering? Can't turn the bars anymore? When you accelerate the centrifugal force wants to stand the bike up and then you have to counteract with the bars to keep turning.

Every day I ride home and go to the mailbox, then I u-turn in the street back to my driveway. I experience it often.
No matter how fast or how far I rode, I couldn't leave her memory behind.

Offline MCRider

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2008, 06:26:02 PM »
this last one sounds like fun to practice.
I wonder, after reading all this, just how many MC accidents are caused by people relying on 'instinct' instead of training.  I rode for years two decades ago, and find myself having to re-learn a lot.... which is actually the point of this whole thread.

That is the poiint and I'm glad you brought it up. In Indiana you must have a motorcycle endorsement on your license to ride. Statistics show over half of fatal accidents have one of two things in common: no endorsement, which is illegal ( no training) and alchohol (persoanl choioce). To get the endorsement one can go through the cones set up by motor vehicles or take the MSF course. Most take the MSF course. It is amazing what 2.5 days of training will do for you. I took my first MSF course after 20 years of riding and you're right, you have to undo bad habits and learn good ones. I went on to take the Advanced MSF course and learned more.

The training is more imporatant than helmets statistically.
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Offline tsflstb

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2008, 06:29:51 PM »
Quote
Good riders can slide on their knee and stand the bike back up onto it's tire contact patch, but I can't.

This came to mind right away as a good example.  Colin Edwards in GP qualifying earlier this year.  Not something I'd ever want to do, but it's cool to watch.

[youtube=425,350]K1UlEQtdUGc[/youtube]

Offline MCRider

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2008, 06:30:26 PM »
incidentally, I haven't been able to find those books locally. 

Whitehorse Press has them along with lots of great MC stuff  http://www.whitehorsepress.com/index.php?cPath=6

That's where i got mine.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2008, 06:33:16 PM »
Quote
Good riders can slide on their knee and stand the bike back up onto it's tire contact patch, but I can't.

This came to mind right away as a good example.  Colin Edwards in GP qualifying earlier this year.  Not something I'd ever want to do, but it's cool to watch.

[youtube=425,350]K1UlEQtdUGc[/youtube]
They've got knee pucks now, he'll be needing elbow pucks. WOW.
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Offline dboblet

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2008, 06:51:57 PM »
That was TOTALLY impressive.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2008, 07:15:59 PM »
this last one sounds like fun to practice.
I wonder, after reading all this, just how many MC accidents are caused by people relying on 'instinct' instead of training.  I rode for years two decades ago, and find myself having to re-learn a lot.... which is actually the point of this whole thread.
The way they do it at an MSF course, you are on a 250, you approach the instructor at about 20mph, at the last second he points one way or the other and that's the way you're supposed to go. It only takes one mistake and then one iteration of doing it right before its locked into your psysche for future use. And the adrenaline is pumping. Oh yeah the instructor told me he's been hit a few times. Better him than a car at 45 mph.

They have lots of other drills as well.
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Offline dboblet

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2008, 07:24:59 PM »
Back when I had my KZ900 I was ripping down the freeway doing about 135.  I exited the freeway and pulled into a hardware store to pick up some things.  I had locked my helmet under the seat and was half way to the store when the CHP officer pulled up.  He was very nice and offered me Motorcycle Traffic School as an alternative to a very expensive ticket.

I learned a lot.  We practiced slow races, pulling out of a line of bikes at a curb, quick turns and lots more.  It was very hard to do on a bike as heavy as the KZ900.  Now that I've got my 750 on the road... I'm beginning to wish I'd gone for a much lighter bike though.  Still, gotta love that rush of blasting through a series of mountain road hairpins at 60mph up here.  Not doing much for my grand plan of saving money on gas though...  I'm tripling my weekly miles...  ;D ;D ;D
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Offline Pinhead

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2008, 08:34:54 PM »
I was on an on-ramp coming onto the highway the other day, one of the right-turn-curve ramps getting onto I-70. Going just a little too hot, had to lean WAY down (foot pegs drug the ground, '79 650)... Got down there and felt the bars almost crank to the right (while making a right turn). I know if I would've let the bars go over I would've low-sided it. Is this an indication of losing traction on the front (needing a new tire), or is it an indicator of something wrong with my front-end (fork flex, etc.)?

Not doing much for my grand plan of saving money on gas though...  I'm tripling my weekly miles...  ;D ;D ;D

Same here!!
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2008, 09:07:06 PM »
I was on an on-ramp coming onto the highway the other day, one of the right-turn-curve ramps getting onto I-70. Going just a little too hot, had to lean WAY down (foot pegs drug the ground, '79 650)... Got down there and felt the bars almost crank to the right (while making a right turn). I know if I would've let the bars go over I would've low-sided it. Is this an indication of losing traction on the front (needing a new tire), or is it an indicator of something wrong with my front-end (fork flex, etc.)?

Not doing much for my grand plan of saving money on gas though...  I'm tripling my weekly miles...  ;D ;D ;D

Same here!!
Assuming you were not on the brake... Usually if you wash out the front end from too much lean, the fork will go to lock in the direction you were countersteering. So you should have felt the steering sliding to the left in a right hand lean. Don't ask me how I know... Actually I have a lot of experience, and that's the way it goes.

If the sliding front tire feels like its steering in the direction of the turn, my guess is you're on the brake too hard. If the tire has 25% of tread depth or more, its probably OK. But some tire brands have more natural stick, usually a function of price. Road Racing slicks don't have any tread at all and are very sticky. The  cheap knock off tires are fine for everyday use and look great, but may not stick in the extreme. If the fork is not skipping, or chattering, its probably set up OK, though those things are always variables. If the fork was flexing it may also chatter as when it flexes it can't move up and down.

The rear may have been sliding out, that would make the front feel like its turning in. My 67 Bonneville had solid pegs and when they dug in they would lift the rear wheel and down you go. The Jap stuff mostly has folding pegs to avoid this. But you can dig the next thing down like the pipe or the centerstand and lighten the rear end as well. Or again, too much rear brake. And these things can happen on very small levels and you can still feel them.  And sometimes, when  everything is perfect and done perfect, within human limits, you still crash.

And sometimes things are hard to explain, and I'm no expert, but I have crashed a lot and survived, and the memories are very vivid. Most of my crashes came from target fixation and braking in the turn. I've never hit another vehicle and that's why I'm alive. When we were growing up, there were no MSF courses or Keith Code books or track training like there is now. And I did not have a high natural skill level, just a deire to outdrive what skills I had. I've found that I can overcome my lack of natural skills with training.
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Offline Pinhead

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2008, 09:20:21 PM »
I was on an on-ramp coming onto the highway the other day, one of the right-turn-curve ramps getting onto I-70. Going just a little too hot, had to lean WAY down (foot pegs drug the ground, '79 650)... Got down there and felt the bars almost crank to the right (while making a right turn). I know if I would've let the bars go over I would've low-sided it. Is this an indication of losing traction on the front (needing a new tire), or is it an indicator of something wrong with my front-end (fork flex, etc.)?

Not doing much for my grand plan of saving money on gas though...  I'm tripling my weekly miles...  ;D ;D ;D

Same here!!
Assuming you were not on the brake... Usually if you wash out the front end from too much lean, the fork will go to lock in the direction you were countersteering. So you should have felt the steering sliding to the left in a right hand lean. Don't ask me how I know... Actually I have a lot of experience, and that's the way it goes.

If the sliding front tire feels like its steering in the direction of the turn, my guess is you're on the brake too hard. If the tire has 25% of tread depth or more, its probably OK. But some tire brands have more natural stick, usually a function of price. Road Racing slicks don't have any tread at all and are very sticky. The  cheap knock off tires are fine for everyday use and look great, but may not stick in the extreme. If the fork is not skipping, or chattering, its probably set up OK, though those things are always variables. If the fork was flexing it may also chatter as when it flexes it can't move up and down.

The rear may have been sliding out, that would make the front feel like its turning in. My 67 Bonneville had solid pegs and when they dug in they would lift the rear wheel and down you go. The Jap stuff mostly has folding pegs to avoid this. But you can dig the next thing down like the pipe or the centerstand and lighten the rear end as well. Or again, too much rear brake. And these things can happen on very small levels and you can still feel them.  And sometimes, when  everything is perfect and done perfect, within human limits, you still crash.

And sometimes things are hard to explain, and I'm no expert, but I have crashed a lot and survived, and the memories are very vivid. Most of my crashes came from target fixation and braking in the turn. I've never hit another vehicle and that's why I'm alive. When we were growing up, there were no MSF courses or Keith Code books or track training like there is now. And I did not have a high natural skill level, just a deire to outdrive what skills I had. I've found that I can overcome my lack of natural skills with training.

Very interesting, but....

I wasn't using the brakes at all, was holding a steady speed if only slightly accelerating, and original front tire.
Doug

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Offline MCRider

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2008, 09:28:16 PM »
I just reread you post and realized you were on an interstate ramp. (3 crashes for me) These tend to get covered with fluids. If there is ever a time that rush hour traffic goes slow on the ramp, the condensation from auto air conditioners mixes with the oil so even on a dry day, you've got problems. Stay in the tire track and don't cross the oil strip at speed.


And as I said, nothing I may be saying here may have anyhting to do with your experience. I'm just sharing. You may never know for sure why you felt that.
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Ron
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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2008, 05:26:07 AM »
I liked my MSF but I think if they're going to offer the choice of riding a bike or scooter, they should give the choice of a 250 cruiser or 250 sportbike. The riding dynamics are totally different; I know going from the CB750 to CBR F4i is night and day.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2008, 06:57:29 AM »
"Very interesting, but....

I wasn't using the brakes at all, was holding a steady speed if only slightly accelerating, and original front tire."

Original Front Tire! 28 years old?  Tire Manufacturers recommend not using a tire over 5 years, regardless of tread depth. The carcass will harden and while 5 years may be a bit soon, at 28 years yours would be as a rock. All bets on performance are off.

There is a DOT code on the tire to tell the manufacturing date. Not a question in your case, just throwing it out there.

Please don't press that tire to the limit again or your post may have a much more grave subject.  :(
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."