Author Topic: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response  (Read 3671 times)

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Offline MCRider

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2008, 07:15:59 PM »
this last one sounds like fun to practice.
I wonder, after reading all this, just how many MC accidents are caused by people relying on 'instinct' instead of training.  I rode for years two decades ago, and find myself having to re-learn a lot.... which is actually the point of this whole thread.
The way they do it at an MSF course, you are on a 250, you approach the instructor at about 20mph, at the last second he points one way or the other and that's the way you're supposed to go. It only takes one mistake and then one iteration of doing it right before its locked into your psysche for future use. And the adrenaline is pumping. Oh yeah the instructor told me he's been hit a few times. Better him than a car at 45 mph.

They have lots of other drills as well.
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline dboblet

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2008, 07:24:59 PM »
Back when I had my KZ900 I was ripping down the freeway doing about 135.  I exited the freeway and pulled into a hardware store to pick up some things.  I had locked my helmet under the seat and was half way to the store when the CHP officer pulled up.  He was very nice and offered me Motorcycle Traffic School as an alternative to a very expensive ticket.

I learned a lot.  We practiced slow races, pulling out of a line of bikes at a curb, quick turns and lots more.  It was very hard to do on a bike as heavy as the KZ900.  Now that I've got my 750 on the road... I'm beginning to wish I'd gone for a much lighter bike though.  Still, gotta love that rush of blasting through a series of mountain road hairpins at 60mph up here.  Not doing much for my grand plan of saving money on gas though...  I'm tripling my weekly miles...  ;D ;D ;D
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Offline Pinhead

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2008, 08:34:54 PM »
I was on an on-ramp coming onto the highway the other day, one of the right-turn-curve ramps getting onto I-70. Going just a little too hot, had to lean WAY down (foot pegs drug the ground, '79 650)... Got down there and felt the bars almost crank to the right (while making a right turn). I know if I would've let the bars go over I would've low-sided it. Is this an indication of losing traction on the front (needing a new tire), or is it an indicator of something wrong with my front-end (fork flex, etc.)?

Not doing much for my grand plan of saving money on gas though...  I'm tripling my weekly miles...  ;D ;D ;D

Same here!!
Doug

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Offline MCRider

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2008, 09:07:06 PM »
I was on an on-ramp coming onto the highway the other day, one of the right-turn-curve ramps getting onto I-70. Going just a little too hot, had to lean WAY down (foot pegs drug the ground, '79 650)... Got down there and felt the bars almost crank to the right (while making a right turn). I know if I would've let the bars go over I would've low-sided it. Is this an indication of losing traction on the front (needing a new tire), or is it an indicator of something wrong with my front-end (fork flex, etc.)?

Not doing much for my grand plan of saving money on gas though...  I'm tripling my weekly miles...  ;D ;D ;D

Same here!!
Assuming you were not on the brake... Usually if you wash out the front end from too much lean, the fork will go to lock in the direction you were countersteering. So you should have felt the steering sliding to the left in a right hand lean. Don't ask me how I know... Actually I have a lot of experience, and that's the way it goes.

If the sliding front tire feels like its steering in the direction of the turn, my guess is you're on the brake too hard. If the tire has 25% of tread depth or more, its probably OK. But some tire brands have more natural stick, usually a function of price. Road Racing slicks don't have any tread at all and are very sticky. The  cheap knock off tires are fine for everyday use and look great, but may not stick in the extreme. If the fork is not skipping, or chattering, its probably set up OK, though those things are always variables. If the fork was flexing it may also chatter as when it flexes it can't move up and down.

The rear may have been sliding out, that would make the front feel like its turning in. My 67 Bonneville had solid pegs and when they dug in they would lift the rear wheel and down you go. The Jap stuff mostly has folding pegs to avoid this. But you can dig the next thing down like the pipe or the centerstand and lighten the rear end as well. Or again, too much rear brake. And these things can happen on very small levels and you can still feel them.  And sometimes, when  everything is perfect and done perfect, within human limits, you still crash.

And sometimes things are hard to explain, and I'm no expert, but I have crashed a lot and survived, and the memories are very vivid. Most of my crashes came from target fixation and braking in the turn. I've never hit another vehicle and that's why I'm alive. When we were growing up, there were no MSF courses or Keith Code books or track training like there is now. And I did not have a high natural skill level, just a deire to outdrive what skills I had. I've found that I can overcome my lack of natural skills with training.
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline Pinhead

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2008, 09:20:21 PM »
I was on an on-ramp coming onto the highway the other day, one of the right-turn-curve ramps getting onto I-70. Going just a little too hot, had to lean WAY down (foot pegs drug the ground, '79 650)... Got down there and felt the bars almost crank to the right (while making a right turn). I know if I would've let the bars go over I would've low-sided it. Is this an indication of losing traction on the front (needing a new tire), or is it an indicator of something wrong with my front-end (fork flex, etc.)?

Not doing much for my grand plan of saving money on gas though...  I'm tripling my weekly miles...  ;D ;D ;D

Same here!!
Assuming you were not on the brake... Usually if you wash out the front end from too much lean, the fork will go to lock in the direction you were countersteering. So you should have felt the steering sliding to the left in a right hand lean. Don't ask me how I know... Actually I have a lot of experience, and that's the way it goes.

If the sliding front tire feels like its steering in the direction of the turn, my guess is you're on the brake too hard. If the tire has 25% of tread depth or more, its probably OK. But some tire brands have more natural stick, usually a function of price. Road Racing slicks don't have any tread at all and are very sticky. The  cheap knock off tires are fine for everyday use and look great, but may not stick in the extreme. If the fork is not skipping, or chattering, its probably set up OK, though those things are always variables. If the fork was flexing it may also chatter as when it flexes it can't move up and down.

The rear may have been sliding out, that would make the front feel like its turning in. My 67 Bonneville had solid pegs and when they dug in they would lift the rear wheel and down you go. The Jap stuff mostly has folding pegs to avoid this. But you can dig the next thing down like the pipe or the centerstand and lighten the rear end as well. Or again, too much rear brake. And these things can happen on very small levels and you can still feel them.  And sometimes, when  everything is perfect and done perfect, within human limits, you still crash.

And sometimes things are hard to explain, and I'm no expert, but I have crashed a lot and survived, and the memories are very vivid. Most of my crashes came from target fixation and braking in the turn. I've never hit another vehicle and that's why I'm alive. When we were growing up, there were no MSF courses or Keith Code books or track training like there is now. And I did not have a high natural skill level, just a deire to outdrive what skills I had. I've found that I can overcome my lack of natural skills with training.

Very interesting, but....

I wasn't using the brakes at all, was holding a steady speed if only slightly accelerating, and original front tire.
Doug

Click --> Cheap Regulator/Rectifier for any of Honda's 3-phase charging systems (all SOHC4's).

GM HEI Ignition Conversion

Quote from: TwoTired
By the way, I'm going for the tinfoil pants...so they can't read my private thoughts.
:D

Offline MCRider

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2008, 09:28:16 PM »
I just reread you post and realized you were on an interstate ramp. (3 crashes for me) These tend to get covered with fluids. If there is ever a time that rush hour traffic goes slow on the ramp, the condensation from auto air conditioners mixes with the oil so even on a dry day, you've got problems. Stay in the tire track and don't cross the oil strip at speed.


And as I said, nothing I may be saying here may have anyhting to do with your experience. I'm just sharing. You may never know for sure why you felt that.
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline Kev Nemo

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2008, 05:26:07 AM »
I liked my MSF but I think if they're going to offer the choice of riding a bike or scooter, they should give the choice of a 250 cruiser or 250 sportbike. The riding dynamics are totally different; I know going from the CB750 to CBR F4i is night and day.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Motorcycle Dynamics, novice questions on bike performance and response
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2008, 06:57:29 AM »
"Very interesting, but....

I wasn't using the brakes at all, was holding a steady speed if only slightly accelerating, and original front tire."

Original Front Tire! 28 years old?  Tire Manufacturers recommend not using a tire over 5 years, regardless of tread depth. The carcass will harden and while 5 years may be a bit soon, at 28 years yours would be as a rock. All bets on performance are off.

There is a DOT code on the tire to tell the manufacturing date. Not a question in your case, just throwing it out there.

Please don't press that tire to the limit again or your post may have a much more grave subject.  :(
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."