Topic: medical care

[masonryman]

It seems to me your problem is the rest of use don't deserve to make a living. I worked all weekend and you were on a boat, maybe your the one that is over paid.

[edbikerii]

So, lacking a direct answer from you, I'm gonna have to take that as a "yes" on the NYC construction worker's salary question, then.

Funny, first I get accused of being an elitist for expecting everybody to work and earn good money, and then you accuse me of being a communist because YOU think you make too much.  You guys just don't stop.

 

It seems to me your problem is the rest of use don't deserve to make a living. I worked all weekend and you were on a boat, maybe your the one that is over paid.

[Frankenkit]

Ed, I'd like to thank you for playing devil's advocate on this thread- I'm not sure if anyone else catches this, but the things you say are actually quite thought provoking, inasmuch as we'd not have much to say if we all agreed. 

[edbikerii]

Thank you, Kit.  I have noticed that you do more than just toe the party line with your posts, too.  I've gone back and looked at what I've posted recently.  I'm sorry that I was so abrupt in my last post to you.  I am actually quite happy that you read it, rather than just dismissing it due to my demeanor.  My post was abrasive, and a lesser person would have just fired off an angry reply without thinking about what I said.

So, I apologize to you for being so abrasive.

Ed

Ed, I'd like to thank you for playing devil's advocate on this thread- I'm not sure if anyone else catches this, but the things you say are actually quite thought provoking, inasmuch as we'd not have much to say if we all agreed. 

[333]

Just because a union member makes 6 figures doesn't mean the union is the reason.  Scale is nowhere near 6 figures without clocking a lot of overtime.  What Masonryman is trying to say(I think) is that contractors pay more than they have to to keep good people.

[masonryman]

333, thank you

I was starting to think I was typing in a differant language, I was trying too look at both sides because I live both sides.

I hire people to work and I work for other people.

Mark

[DRam]

What does your friend's desire to retire early have to do with ME PAYING FOR HIS HEALTHCARE.  Tough #$%*.  Let him work until he is eligible for Medicare like everybody else, or let him pay for his own insurance.  WTF are you thinking?

I'm thinking my friend is extremely lucky.  He can still work until Medicare kicks in. I'm thinking the wife and I are lucky.  The wife was able to switch to a job that provides insurance.  When I retired her employer refused to let her sign up for the company insurance.  I know, that's illegal for private business, but not for government agencies.  I'm also thinking about those who can't work and can't afford insurance and using my friend as an example of the bind they find themselves in.

I'm thinking about the large contingent of people not able to handle a job that provides insurance, or who can't find one?   Typically jobs that don't provide health insurance also don't pay enough that health insurance is affordable.  I guess nobody should take those jobs.  Everybody should work only for established businesses large enough to either provide health insurance or pay enough that it can be afforded.

I'm thinking of people whose life has dealt them a bum hand - two friends whose husbands took off leaving them and their kids behind.  One took two part time jobs because neither business would only hire part time to get out of having to pay benefits, and neither paying more than minimum.  The other started a day care business which supported her family, but barely.  Both eventually were able to move on to better thing and are doing pretty well now, but they sure could have used a hand with medical care for several years.

I'm thinking of the kids I worked with for 35 years teaching special education, many of whom will not be able to work jobs that provide health insurance or pay enough to buy it.

I guess I'm thinking beyond myself and the good fortune I've had.  Of parents were there for me, relatives that helped me out through college when what I earned wouldn't pay everything, of a good job that provided health insurance.  Yeah, I'm a lucky guy.  I've got it made.  But there are millions out there that don't and I think we should be looking to help them out.

I'm thinking, too, that you haven't considered the fact that you are already paying for other's health care.  Someone goes to the emergency room and can't pay - your costs get hiked to help make up that loss.  Someone can't afford care and ends up on Medicaide - your taxes take care of that.  So you're paying double, as are all who buy private health insurance, once for you and once for them.  Why not a  single payer system that lets you pay just once?

But, maybe you're right.  If people can't handle the good jobs, end up single parents for some reason, or in some other way find themselves in a bind, that's their problem.  You have yours.  Screw them.  They can go die.

[Bob Wessner]

[333]

I'm thinking of the people who work for the United States Postal Service.  The USPS(BTW, still the best postal service ON THE PLANET, and self sufficient.  Meaning it doesn't take a single penny from the U.S. Government) has a work force comprised mostly (approx 3/4) of part time employees.  Who don't get ANY benefits.  No health care, no retirement(aside from S.S.),no vacation , no sick leave, no nothing.  Why would one work there?  Because we take what we can get.

Bob, I hope that's not a warning like we didn't get in the OFP Real Time thread.

[Bob Wessner]

Bob, I hope that's not a warning like we didn't get in the OFP Real Time thread.

In a manner of speaking, yes. Seems to be an emotional topic, just keep it civil.

[Frankenkit]

It's just one of those topics.  You can't talk medical care without going into politics, and generally speaking, one can't mention politics, or religion in mixed company without 'interesting' results.  I believe this sort of subject matter would yield a very interesting discussion if everyone could stay objective, but realistically speaking, if anyone has any passion about their beliefs, that is simply unlikely to happen.  That said, I think people are doing a decent job... Sure some have a tendency to be acerbic, but I know people who get the same way in discussions over carb syncing etc. 

[DRam]

I apologize specifically to edbikerii and everyone else for the last line of my post above.  It was a personal attack that was uncalled for, and I'm sorry I made it.  In the future I will re-read and think twice before posting.

DRam 

[333]

I was thinking it was a bit of sarcasm.

[Terry in Australia]

Oil on the track? Where? Oh my God, look out!

[BobbyR]

While the Caution flag is out everyone stay in line:

This will again be one of those circular argeurments where there will never be an resolution. Some feel things are fine as they are. Some feel some changes of varying degrees need to be made. Some feel the entire system needs to be modeled out of those in Europe and Canada.

In my opinion things will have to change. How far that change should go I am not completely sure. One thing is clear those of us in the Baby Boomer generation will be need increasing medical care as the years go on. We are large in number and we went through the 1960's so we will make a ruckus. We will use out vote to bring about that change. I would rather see a migration to something new rather than a crisis.

[edbikerii]

HI DRam, I actually construed that last line as sarcasm, rather than a personal attack, but thanks for the apology.  I also got a little rude in my last post to you, and hope there are no hard feelings.

Back to the subject at hand:  I would like to point out that, if we had it your way, for every person who decided to retire early, there would be at least one person who had to work longer or harder, or for less pay (higher taxes), in order to pay for the health care of the early retiree.  This is a zero sum game, and somebody has got to pay the piper, no matter how sensitive we want to pretend to be.  Working the working people to death is not the way to finance early retirement.

I apologize specifically to edbikerii and everyone else for the last line of my post above.  It was a personal attack that was uncalled for, and I'm sorry I made it.  In the future I will re-read and think twice before posting.

DRam 

[333]

Where did he say that?  I think we all realize that some kind of national health care might cost us all a little, but NOBODY"S plan calls for figuring out how many people have retired, to adjust the costs accordingly.  And I realize that a Republicans view of anything a Democrat requires so much government, but isn't that carrying that a bit too far?

[Terry in Australia]

Yeah, what crap. For every retiree who has survived to retirement age, there are at least two new workers starting their working careers, (America's population has increased a whopping 50% since 1968) so if anything, retiree's pensions, health care etc is LESS of a burden on the working population than more.

Don't forget that those retirees carried the nation (any nation) during their 40+ year working lives, so not only deserve some "tax payer assisted" support, but a bit of bloody respect too.............. 

[DammitDan]

Yellow flag?  What yellow flag?

OIL SLICK?!  WHERE!!

(Terry, madly spotting for the oil slick, displays a spectacular show of running off the track  )

[medic09]

Terry, don't forget to take into account that much of the population growth in the US is aging population.  Folks are living longer, and so a significant percentage of the population growth is older people living longer with numerous medical and pharmaceutical needs.  By most estimates that I read in the journals, the burden/demand is increased without much growth in the ability to bear it.

[my78k]

Good point Medic and not to mention that (atleast here in Canada and I am assuming to some degree south of the border as well) a lot of the population growth also stems from imigration. Granted some of the imigrants will have younger children or are at a point in their lives where they are still looking to have kids. However, in some cases the newly Canadian (or American) are above the age where they will be having children thereby off setting the scale in terms of working versus non working or retiring.

Dennis

[Demon67]

Yeah Bobby R evolution rather than revolution ( oh migod what am I saying, I must be getting old)
Bill the demon

[medic09]

Appropo our discussion earlier: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5j9vQmR7AZDkCnUDJH6TMpybABTIAD933GH8O0

[TwoTired]

Shop around and try to find a primary care doctor (which you need to get referrals for specialists) who is accepting new patients with medicare.  They can be picky because the doctors going into primary care has fallen by half from 1997 to 2005.  Those that are left have waiting rooms brimming with patients.  Who needs the hassle of Medicare?

The AARP rag told a story of a woman who retired in San Fransisco (high cost of living) and moved to outside of Sacremento.  She had primary employer insurance, secondary medicare, and supplemental medigap ins.  She noticed a small irregular "mole" on her skin.  Fearing the worst, she tried to get a doctor to look at it as soon as she could.  She had no primary care doctors that would make a referral to a dermatologist.  It was seven months before surgery to remove several lymph nodes.  Wrangling between insurance, doctors and care.   Now the melanoma has spread to her lungs.

It took Donna and Larry Bry of Salem Oregon two YEARS to find a primary care doctor that would accept medicare.  One day the side of Larry's face swelled up so badly that is closed his eye.  He had a severe case of single.  He needed a Neurologist.  "But nobody would see him without a primary care doctor, and we couldn't find one", Donna says.  We, pounded the phones day after day, going through the whole list [of primary care doctors] in Salem.  But, every one who accepted new patients would not accept people on Medicare."

Ain't the medical business great?

[medic09]

TT, our experience was that Medicare didn't pay, and didn't pay on time.  My wife accepted all patients with all methods of payment.  (You should see some of the items she took 'in kind'!)  Claims frequently had to be resubmitted to Medicare after being rejected on some technicality or another.  Sometimes a claim had to be resubmitted 2 or 3 times.  And then, to receive payment months or even a year later was just adding insult to injury.  How embarrassing is it to have to juggle your monthly bills when you have MD after your name?  When your colleagues all refer patients to you and ask you to cover for them, because they respect your quality of care?  When you have trouble helping your kids pay for their schooling (3 college grads so far) because you have trouble repaying your own student loans?  The insurances, Medicare chief among them, have made it actually difficult for a good physician to practice family and community medicine.  That is why so many docs are limiting the percentage of patients they will treat on Medicare.  They can't afford to do otherwise.