Author Topic: medical care  (Read 10241 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Demon67

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 393
medical care
« on: August 28, 2008, 12:47:07 PM »
A few days ago I munched my hand, have know idea, how, when, what ever I had been stapling up vapor barrier and  doing insulation any how my hand started to swell to twice to three times its size and began to hurt so did the usual, ice packs etc nothing helped even wound up taking NyQuil for the pain killer in it, so that I could sleep, my wife paragon of all things medical you'll have to go to the hospital and I of course said yes love I'll see how it is in the morning, and morning comes, no knuckles, so I agree that if I want to keep working on the house I'll see some one, so off to the hospital, she drives me in and I'm going on from where she works, to the health center, pull in to parking lot and the walk in clinic stares me in the face, it doesn't open for another 30 minutes but what the hell I'll read until it does so about 20 to nine lady opens door so the patrons troop in, get a number, I wait a fair time and then called in, Nurse interviews me I wait a bit more (in the meantime I hear a baby screaming and some one else in pain) Doctor comes in talks to me what were you doing I explain I'm building a house and we talk a bit more he prescribes some med and away we go. You know it took me 2 hours to get it done and I didn't care, because they took that long they did a thorough evaluation and that takes time I also didn't mind they took the mother and baby in before me ( if you've ever sat in a waiting room with an cranky baby you'll understand) any how, with prescription costs and parking meter it cost me $14.00 total so guys if you haven't got a health care system I truly pity you and I would force your politico's to do something about it before they are allowed to throw another war.
Bill the demon

upperlake04

  • Guest
Re: medical care
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2008, 12:59:02 PM »
  Where do you live Bill?          ;D

Offline Demon67

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 393
Re: medical care
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2008, 01:03:41 PM »
Just out side of Owen Sound, between OS and Wiarton, we bought 4 acres and are rying to get a house livable before winter.
Bill the demon

Offline DammitDan

  • Prodigal Son
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,470
  • It lives!
Re: medical care
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2008, 04:15:49 PM »
But Bill, the Canadian socialist healthcare system doesn't work!

Didn't you know that?  ;D
CB750K4

Offline Demon67

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 393
Re: medical care
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2008, 04:38:40 PM »
Yeah Dan, I have these lapses where I forget that the neo cons are right, but you know the nice young nurse who couldn't possibly be part of a socialist system, she was so efficient and good at her job of triage that she must have been part of the great pay for health care system, Ahh you see, I have lapses, I'm old and senile. Sorry, the truth is the conservatives are wrong and in this country the old conservative party recognized the reality that socialized medicine was necessary. I rant, sorry I just think that the gov should protect its citizens to a certain extent.

Offline BobbyR

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,367
  • Proud Owner of the Babe Thread & Dirty Old Man
Re: medical care
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2008, 07:46:27 PM »
You are spot on. I am a conservative US Republican and I took a lot of crap for advocating Socilaized Medcine in the US. It has to happen. Canada shows that it works.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline alltherightpills

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,330
Re: medical care
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2008, 08:29:16 PM »
So wait, what the hell happened to your hand to make it swell up to 3x its size?


78 550K
77 550K (in pieces)
71 500K0 (in pieces)

Offline mystic_1

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,071
  • 1970 CB750K
Re: medical care
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2008, 11:41:33 PM »
So wait, what the hell happened to your hand to make it swell up to 3x its size?


+1

Inquiring minds want to know, so we can avoid doing the same thing :)

Hope the hand is feeling better now, btw.

mystic_1
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for."
- John Augustus Shedd

My build thread:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=68952.0

Offline Demon67

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 393
Re: medical care
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2008, 04:31:37 AM »
Guys, if I knew I would tell you, doc says it is inflamed, but couldn't find entry wound and yeah its starting to come down, I wonder if I picked up some thing from the fiber glass, some of the bundles were not really sealed as well as they should have been and they may have picked up a bug from where they were stored and a scratch from a fiber would be hard as hell to see, if it happens again I'll see if I can't get better info. Bill the demon

Offline tramp

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,142
Re: medical care
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2008, 04:41:28 AM »
ahhhh
building homes
i built three of them, last one was built with no mortgage
so i know what your going through
good luck
1974 750k

Offline edbikerii

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,128
    • Gallery
Re: medical care
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2008, 04:52:53 AM »
So let me get this straight.   You went to the socialized medicine doctor, waited two hours.  Then they looked at you, and said, "we don't know a damned thing", but they prescribed you some medicine anyway and sent you on your way.  Now a day later, the swelling starts to come down, and you are raving about how great your care was?

Thanks for posting this story!

Guys, if I knew I would tell you, doc says it is inflamed, but couldn't find entry wound and yeah its starting to come down, I wonder if I picked up some thing from the fiber glass, some of the bundles were not really sealed as well as they should have been and they may have picked up a bug from where they were stored and a scratch from a fiber would be hard as hell to see, if it happens again I'll see if I can't get better info. Bill the demon
SOHC4 #289
1977 CB550K - SOLD
1997 YAMAHA XJ600S - SOLD
1986 GL1200I - SOLD
2004 BMW R1150R

Jetting: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20869.msg258435#msg258435
Needles:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20869.msg253711#msg253711

Offline BobbyR

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,367
  • Proud Owner of the Babe Thread & Dirty Old Man
Re: medical care
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2008, 06:16:47 AM »
Go to a City Hospital in NY and see how long you wait and unless you are on welfare you are not getting away with a $14.00 out of pocket! They have a much better system in Canada and most other civilized countries. The Insurance Companies are ruining health care in the US. They are bigger robber barons than the oil companies. 3 Hospitals in Westchester have closed in the last 5 years.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline Bob Wessner

  • "Carbs Suck!"
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,079
Re: medical care
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2008, 06:26:09 AM »
Guys, if I knew I would tell you, doc says it is inflamed, but couldn't find entry wound and yeah its starting to come down, I wonder if I picked up some thing from the fiber glass, some of the bundles were not really sealed as well as they should have been and they may have picked up a bug from where they were stored and a scratch from a fiber would be hard as hell to see, if it happens again I'll see if I can't get better info. Bill the demon

I'm guessing/hoping you are current on your tetanus shots?
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline Demon67

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 393
Re: medical care
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2008, 06:45:23 AM »
You are not picking up on this Ed. I didn't show up when it happened, it was after by a couple of days and the doctor and nurse couldn't find a point of entry, but made an educated guess, there by saving the system money and me time, perhaps if you had a good bm there would be room in your mind for something other than neo con crap.
Bill the demon

Offline Aaron J Williams

  • Old Biker
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 532
  • Member # 725
    • Dude's Garage
Re: medical care
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2008, 07:13:29 AM »
I'm with demon on this one, I think my government should be able to force me to pay for someone else's medical care even though the Constitution doesn't grant them that power. While we are at it, lets shred the Constitution and all become serfs to the state because freedom is bad and socialism is the best!  Sorry, I believe in freedom and individual rights granted by God regardless of what infantile names you may wish to call me.
There are old bikers and there are bold bikers but there are very few old, bold bikers.

Quote from: Gordon
Not doing what you can to make your bike ride-able during the best riding months of the year kind of defeats the purpose of owning it in the first place.

upperlake04

  • Guest
Re: medical care
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2008, 08:00:24 AM »
 ;D ;D  Best swagger post I've seen here for a long time AJ.     
 

Offline Frankenkit

  • Industrial Strength
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,525
  • 2012 CBR250R, 72 CL350, Member #4600
Re: medical care
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2008, 08:27:57 AM »
You can always tell who's working at the hospital because they want to vs. "it's good money"

I'm really glad you got that nice young nurse. I tell ya, we have some fantastic CNAs and transport people, people who make maybe $10-$12/hr for wiping butts and moving dead people... and then again, we have nurses who make twice that and up with sour attitudes and #$%*y demeanors... 

I work in healthcare and I would love to see us go to a socialized medical system.  Our hospital is already non-profit (and loses money every year due to treating the homeless, empoverished, etc)  but them's the breaks... I'm intensely proud of my hospital, and wish we could help everyone.

All that said, sometimes, you can get localized edema for whatever miniscule, bizarre reason, and often it goes away without complication but it's always good to go to an MD to be safe. It could've been a lymph system blockage that eventually resolved or reaction to the fibers, etc... the important thing is, the doctor would have known whether or not this swelling was going to cut off blood flow, if it was necrotic in nature, etc etc. 
"Moderation in all things - especially moderation. Too much moderation is excessive. The occasional excess is all part of living the moderate life."
2012 CBR250R "Black Betty"
1980 CB650c- (sold) Delilah
1973 CL350- Lola?
Sweet, bubbly, Buddha - Say it ain't so!!!
Stuff for sale

Offline 333

  • Time for change
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,558
  • Mail List Member #162 - Call me Stan
Re: medical care
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2008, 08:58:23 AM »
Just goes to show you, you can be a good doctor and not know what caused the problem in the first place.  All you have to know is what is happening now.

I wish people would stop trotting out the Constitution when talking about things like health care.  While it is a wonderful document, it was written at a time when hospitals were a temporary place set up for caring for wounded during war time.  Doctors were trained in using herbs and roots as far as medicine is concerned, and surgery was basically amputation.  So when writing the Constitution, they had no idea that medicine would be what it is today, or our population would be what it is today.  Or transportation either.  What is now a 5 minute ambulance ride was hours by horse, if you had one.  An ambulance is something we expect if needed, yet not even mentioned in the Constitution!
Go metric, every inch of the way!

CB350F0  "Scrouching Tiger"
CT70K0    "Sneezing Poodle"

www.alexandriaseaport.org

Offline edbikerii

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,128
    • Gallery
Re: medical care
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2008, 09:07:01 AM »
Go to a "city" hospital anywhere and you'll learn what socialized medicine is all about.

I visited the ER at Holy Name Hospital (yes, a real nice, private hospital) in Teaneck, NJ for a fall I had on Saturday.  I was seen by a Nurse Practitioner within 5 minutes.  I was seen by a doctor within 20 minutes.  I was examined, treated with anti-inflammatory, Tetanus shot, X-rays and released within 2 hours.  $20 co-pay.

Ain't gonna do better than that anywhere in the world.  Maybe you'll match it for the simple stuff like swollen hands and bruised bones, but I'd still rather get treated for cancer in New York than Toronto.

Go to a City Hospital in NY and see how long you wait and unless you are on welfare you are not getting away with a $14.00 out of pocket! They have a much better system in Canada and most other civilized countries. The Insurance Companies are ruining health care in the US. They are bigger robber barons than the oil companies. 3 Hospitals in Westchester have closed in the last 5 years.
SOHC4 #289
1977 CB550K - SOLD
1997 YAMAHA XJ600S - SOLD
1986 GL1200I - SOLD
2004 BMW R1150R

Jetting: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20869.msg258435#msg258435
Needles:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20869.msg253711#msg253711

Offline DammitDan

  • Prodigal Son
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,470
  • It lives!
Re: medical care
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2008, 09:38:29 AM »
I'm with demon on this one, I think my government should be able to force me to pay for someone else's medical care even though the Constitution doesn't grant them that power.

I'm confused Aaron, aren't you doing that now of your own accord?

While we are at it, lets shred the Constitution and all become serfs to the state because freedom is bad and socialism is the best!

Who said anything about socialism?  If universal healthcare is considered socialism, then shouldn't public education, social security, medicare, all public transportation, county/city/federal roads and highways, police, firemen, and all government supported educational and research grants be considered socialism, too?

Sorry, I believe in freedom and individual rights granted by God regardless of what infantile names you may wish to call me.

Separation of church and state was put in by the founding fathers...  those rights are granted by your government, not by God.
CB750K4

Offline DammitDan

  • Prodigal Son
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,470
  • It lives!
Re: medical care
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2008, 09:42:19 AM »
Go to a "city" hospital anywhere and you'll learn what socialized medicine is all about.

I visited the ER at Holy Name Hospital (yes, a real nice, private hospital) in Teaneck, NJ for a fall I had on Saturday.  I was seen by a Nurse Practitioner within 5 minutes.  I was seen by a doctor within 20 minutes.  I was examined, treated with anti-inflammatory, Tetanus shot, X-rays and released within 2 hours.  $20 co-pay.

Ain't gonna do better than that anywhere in the world.  Maybe you'll match it for the simple stuff like swollen hands and bruised bones, but I'd still rather get treated for cancer in New York than Toronto.

Didn't Bill tell the exact same story you just did, except he paid $5 less co-pay and thousands less in insurance premiums?
CB750K4

Offline Demon67

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 393
Re: medical care
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2008, 10:06:22 AM »
A couple of things, the gov has not told me what to do since the Big Blue # 5's (uniform of the RCAF) came off in 63 , Kitsune at 69 all nurses are young as far as nice I suppose she wouldn't be working there if she wasn't as far as the other people I had a buddy and wife who were involved in a horrendous accident up near Thunder Bay my buddy said that after the accident he drifted back into consciousness and could hear gas hitting the hot exhaust manifold, he manage to pass his 2 year old to a bystander before passing out again any how they were cut out of the wreckage and taken to the local hospital 50 or so miles away and when they came too they found that Krista the 2 year old had bee taken in by the hospital and had a room next to them, apparently the staff and nurses made sure that she was Ok and amused her until mom and dad woke up, any how my buddy's wife was an RN and she said they got excellent care she also said the the place had amazing food the staff would ask you what you wanted and if at all possible it would show up the next day, she also said the staff was proud of its cabbage rolls and when they were going to have them people would come in 0400-0430 to start making them so every one would have enough, so socialized or not if the staff are treated decently they go the extra mile.
ED I've got a scenario for you, your travelling the freeways and you're in an accident, you not conscious and you been thrown out of the car, your pretty badly beaten up, one of the bystanders picks up your wallet and walks with it, the medics arrive, check you out you could have a problem with your head, so they have to transport you to a hospital, they can't find any insurance cards, credit cards so its off the nearest "free hospital" instead of the special one you need that's much closer, on route because its rush hour you suffer a stroke, tell me again about socialized medicine.
Bill the demon

Offline super pasty white guy

  • I'm not really a
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 929
  • 1976 750 F
Re: medical care
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2008, 11:21:33 AM »
The U.S. is the only industrialized country without some form of universal health care.

The U.S. spends more on health care but has poorer outcomes.  Think we have the best care in the world?  Nope.  A recent analysis of healt outcomes studies found that "The death and disease rates for patients in Canada are the same or lower than those for people with similar diagnoses treated in the United States — even though per capita health-care spending is higher south of the border."  Our infant mortalality rate is right up there with many developing countries.

A study by the Commonwealth fund comparing Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand, the UK and the US places the U.S. last for all measures of health care performance (Quality, Access, Efficiency, equity, healthy lives) with the highest cost per patient.

17% of the country can't afford or doesn't have health insurance.  You can help pay to send that poor kid to the dentist for a cleaning, or pay more when that kid gets a dental  abcess that spreads to to his brain.

Taxes support everyone-  we don't get a checkbox to say "I don't have kids so I'm not paying for schools."  Or "I don't support the war so none of my taxes go to the military."  What our society deems important (through elected officials) is what our taxes go to, whether the individual paying them agrees or not.  Currently our priority seems to be blowing stuff up.

Most Americans get their health insurance through their employers.  You think that your employer is happy to pay for that?  GM puts more money per car into health care than into the steel-  $1,500 per year.

I'm not saying our health care isn't good, or that we should (or could) immediately become a socialist country.  If you want or need a CAT Scan in Canada, you'll be waiting a heck of a lot longer than you would in the U.S.  I'm a pharmacist and I've been working in health care in one area or another for a while now.  I know that we have incredibly dedicated people here.  Those people won't be going away with a change in the system.  I know that we have good care, if you can afford it. 

I am saying that we're already paying for other people's health care, that our system is inefficient, that we're NOT the best in the world when it comes to caring for our citizens.

Whew.  Rant off.  We return to our regular programming...  That swelling would go down faster if you used Rotella synthetic.

spwg

Fruit don't talk, fruit just listens... and waits.

Offline BobbyR

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,367
  • Proud Owner of the Babe Thread & Dirty Old Man
Re: medical care
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2008, 01:35:26 PM »
Go to a "city" hospital anywhere and you'll learn what socialized medicine is all about.

I visited the ER at Holy Name Hospital (yes, a real nice, private hospital) in Teaneck, NJ for a fall I had on Saturday.  I was seen by a Nurse Practitioner within 5 minutes.  I was seen by a doctor within 20 minutes.  I was examined, treated with anti-inflammatory, Tetanus shot, X-rays and released within 2 hours.  $20 co-pay.

Ain't gonna do better than that anywhere in the world.  Maybe you'll match it for the simple stuff like swollen hands and bruised bones, but I'd still rather get treated for cancer in New York than Toronto.

Go to a City Hospital in NY and see how long you wait and unless you are on welfare you are not getting away with a $14.00 out of pocket! They have a much better system in Canada and most other civilized countries. The Insurance Companies are ruining health care in the US. They are bigger robber barons than the oil companies. 3 Hospitals in Westchester have closed in the last 5 years.
I have a co worker who was treated for a complicated Cancer in his neck and he is fine. He was diagnosed on a Monday and operated on the next day. His chemo and radiation started immediately. He paid nothing out of pocket. Canada and the US have a reciprical on medical licenses. A Doctor from Canada can practice in the U.S. and vice versa.
Twenty years ago Canadian were coming to the US in fair numbers, now they are not since they have a better life under the Canadian system. My Brother runs a Hospital in Upstate NY, he wants universal healthcare since the current system is broken.
How much you have to pay a year to have that $20 copay?   
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline edbikerii

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,128
    • Gallery
Re: medical care
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2008, 03:11:36 PM »
My employer's insurance is free for individuals.  ~$300/mo. comes out of my pay for the family plan to cover my two kids.  That is for top-of-the-line, premium insurance -- just about every doctor I could dream of is covered, and if not, then 80% is covered as an "out-of-network" expense.  That covers optical, dental and psychiatric, too.  It even covers marriage counseling!  Of course, there are much cheaper plans available, but I want to make sure my family is taken care of.

That price is no biggie, really.  When I was insuring my family under my own business I was paying about $1100/mo. for me, two kids and a wife.  Larger corporations regularly negotiate much better deals than that for health insurance.  Of course that is all tax-deductible, and I easily offset the cost of insurance by working harder and making more money ;).

I sure don't mind paying for private health insurance, considering that the alternative is a nightmare of higher taxes to pay for a crappy socialized medicine system, PLUS the private supplemental insurance that I'll need to purchase in order to get REAL medical care just in case I ever really need it (for something other than a runny nose or a broken arm) under a socialized system.

It just seems like the latest crop of Democrats have managed to convince a whole lot of people that our healthcare system is broken, when it works just fine for the vast majority of hard-working Americans, and it provides research, testing and cures for the rest of the world, as well.  We're not exactly hearing about all the developments in cancer treatment coming from Canada.  Of course, anybody who's ever heard of cancer is familiar with Memorial Sloan Kettering in NYC, the Mayo Clinic in MN, Dana-Farber in Boston, Duke in NC, and many other fine American treatment centers where people are regularly cured of rare and obscure types of cancer (for the semantically challenged, I'll use the term "durable remission" meaning no signs of cancer in the body for more than 5 years from treatment).

Americans who can't afford private health insurance already have the socialized Medicare and Medicaid systems, which are perfect examples of a government-run socialized-medicine debacle.   Most old folks I know on social security and Medicare also have supplemental private insurance because they know that the government will only pay for the cheapest base level of care.  I'm sick and tired of hearing the old "but I earn too much for Medicaid" argument, too.  In NJ a family of four can earn up to $83,500 a year and still qualify for Medicaid.  That's pretty damned liberal if you ask me.

I really don't see the problem with having to work to get something provided to you.  Is it really fair that some crack-head welfare freak should have access to the same doctors as hard-working people?  Should the hard-working people also have to wait on line while the crack-heads tie up the socialized system with their chronic, self-induced health issues, too?  Granted, children cannot control who their parents are, or how hard they work, so the government should mandate that their parents provide them with health insurance until they are able to pay for it themselves.  Just like car insurance, if you get caught having children who are uninsured, you should be subjected to penalties and imprisonment.  That would be a great incentive to get irresponsible low-life parents to either do the right thing, or stop having children they cannot afford.

Successful private hospitals in NYC also get huge sums of money from wealthy former patients who leave large portions of their estates to the hospitals who helped improve their lives.  I guess some people appreciate a good thing when they have it.



Go to a "city" hospital anywhere and you'll learn what socialized medicine is all about.

I visited the ER at Holy Name Hospital (yes, a real nice, private hospital) in Teaneck, NJ for a fall I had on Saturday.  I was seen by a Nurse Practitioner within 5 minutes.  I was seen by a doctor within 20 minutes.  I was examined, treated with anti-inflammatory, Tetanus shot, X-rays and released within 2 hours.  $20 co-pay.

Ain't gonna do better than that anywhere in the world.  Maybe you'll match it for the simple stuff like swollen hands and bruised bones, but I'd still rather get treated for cancer in New York than Toronto.

Go to a City Hospital in NY and see how long you wait and unless you are on welfare you are not getting away with a $14.00 out of pocket! They have a much better system in Canada and most other civilized countries. The Insurance Companies are ruining health care in the US. They are bigger robber barons than the oil companies. 3 Hospitals in Westchester have closed in the last 5 years.
I have a co worker who was treated for a complicated Cancer in his neck and he is fine. He was diagnosed on a Monday and operated on the next day. His chemo and radiation started immediately. He paid nothing out of pocket. Canada and the US have a reciprical on medical licenses. A Doctor from Canada can practice in the U.S. and vice versa.
Twenty years ago Canadian were coming to the US in fair numbers, now they are not since they have a better life under the Canadian system. My Brother runs a Hospital in Upstate NY, he wants universal healthcare since the current system is broken.
How much you have to pay a year to have that $20 copay?   
SOHC4 #289
1977 CB550K - SOLD
1997 YAMAHA XJ600S - SOLD
1986 GL1200I - SOLD
2004 BMW R1150R

Jetting: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20869.msg258435#msg258435
Needles:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20869.msg253711#msg253711