Author Topic: medical care  (Read 10304 times)

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Offline Demon67

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Re: medical care
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2008, 03:49:23 PM »
Ok Ed it almost sounds like the Barons largess, the way you say my "employers insurance is free etc"are you by any chance a closet "Serf" and $300 a month is a helluva lot more than we've ever paid. Oh and my wife reminded me that when she needed a cat scan, it took a week, in a non emergency situation, maybe she got lucky eh.
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: medical care
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2008, 04:31:48 PM »
Ha!!!  So now I'm a "serf" because my employer values me enough to pay for my health insurance?  Isn't that a little backwards?  Sure, and they pay me enough that I think $300/mo. is acceptable for top-of-the-line healthcare for my children, too (that any number of children, BTW).

Ok Ed it almost sounds like the Barons largess, the way you say my "employers insurance is free etc"are you by any chance a closet "Serf" and $300 a month is a helluva lot more than we've ever paid. Oh and my wife reminded me that when she needed a cat scan, it took a week, in a non emergency situation, maybe she got lucky eh.
Bill the demon
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: medical care
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2008, 05:16:32 PM »
Bill, I love ya but you are so full of Sh1t it breaks my heart. So much bottled up anger is not a healthy thing. I was 25 years old and I had a kidney stone.  My health insurance was free with no out of pocket. I wound up in a nice upscale hospital in Westchester. Two doctors and the nurses looked good and the food was fine. I am watching TV (also paid for) and I went channel 13 to our PBS station. I watched a documentary about NYC Hospitals in NYC, a working guy was brought into the ER with chest pains, he had health insurance etc. He went into cardiac arrest and they did not have a $13.00 set of leads to use on their defribulator. The doctors were cursing(it was PBS) as they tried to save this man and jury rig something. I watched him die on camera for $13.00. Sitting pretty as I was, I was disgusted at what I saw and it changed my thinking. Of course in your way of thinking, I deserved two Doctors and a nice comfy room since I was a highly paid professional and this guy was only a construction worker with a GED or less, they are a dime a dozen. You and I deserve better because we are better. If some poor family sweating out an existence at minimum wage can't afford to pay half their income to insure their lids, let's fine them so they can skip and meal or two a week.
I am a Conservative Republican, but I know right from wrong, and not helping the sick and elderly is just plain wrong. The country I live in and fought for, is, or should be better than that.
Having said that, If I see ya up around Bear Mountain, we can hit the Lodge and have coffee or a brew.  ;D   
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

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Offline Frankenkit

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Re: medical care
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2008, 05:32:19 PM »
What's sad is the sheer number of people uninsured in the good ol' U.S. of A. 
I'm not talking bums. 
I'm talking the people who have to sweat out two or three part time jobs to make enough money to get by, because in a lot of places, full time jobs are hard to get. (that whole "If you're part time, we don't have to give you benefits or make you union members" thing)  I'm talking about people who work full time in small businesses that just can't afford insurance for their employees.  I'm talking about community college students who make just enough to get by and cover tuition, but too much to get state aid, not enough to afford their own insurance, and because it's a CC, they don't get 'school medical'. 

 The greatest kick in the teeth is that community college med students, while doing clinicals, are required by law to have medical insurance (immunizations, coverage, etc) and yet because they're CC students, they don't get insurance through the school, won't get insurance through the hospital they're studying at, and most likely (and most often) aren't paid for these internships.  What irony to force upon these future medical professionals- and people wonder why they're such advocates for universal healthcare!
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: medical care
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2008, 08:33:54 PM »
First off, get it right, my name's Ed, not Bill! ;D

At first I wasn't sure you were referring to me because I don't fit the "bottled up anger" comment.  What's that all about, anyway?

Clearly, we have a little miscommunication going on here about the NYC Hospitals issue.  Yes, the socialized hospitals RUN BY NYC Health and Hospitals Corporation are PURE CRAP.  Ask anybody -- even Bloomberg.  Giuliani has been very vocal about this, too.  Ask any NYC cop if he would want to be taken to Bellevue, Metropolitan, Lincoln, or Harlem hospital after being shot, and you'll see him cower in fear.  THAT IS THE STATE OF SOCIALIZED MEDICINE IN BIG CITIES LIKE NEW YORK.  Maybe things are different in rural Canada, but those situations are not relevant to the 200+ Million Americans who live in big cities in the United States of America.

NY Presbyterian (AKA New York Hospital, AKA Cornell Weill) is an exceptional private hospital where people fly from all over the world for treatments for rare and difficult cancers and other ailments.  The Shah of Iran even flew to NY to be treated at NY Hospital for cancer in 1979 (unfortunately, he died the following year in a hospital in Cairo http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/05/us/05newsom.html?fta=y).  They flew him in for treatment at NY Hospital under a pseudonym despite massive international political pressure because NY Hospital was THE ONLY PLACE IN THE WORLD WHERE HE STOOD A CHANCE OF SURVIVING.

No Bobby, I didn't say that I'm better than a construction worker.  I did say that I'm better than a welfare crackhead, though.  Can't say I'd ever back away from that statement, either.  There is no freakin' way a common welfare crackhead deserves the same standard of medical care that working people do.

Also, you and I both know well that unionized construction workers in NYC make a hell of a lot of money (most make in the six figures -- not bad for somebody without a HS diploma), and they have excellent union medical benefits.  In fact, they cannot even nail in a nail without a foreman, an apprentice, and an assistant, all on the clock at the expense of the "evil, capitalist real estate developers".  Wanna take a guess how I know so much about union construction work?

The idea that people are going without medical care because they don't have insurance is pure bull.  Like I said, if you're too poor, then you can already qualify for Medicaid.  People with astonishingly high incomes qualify for medicaid, and they get treatment that sometimes exceeds that of working people (example: NYPD's GHI does not cover a lap-band surgery for morbid obesity, whereas medicaid does).

Socializing medicine will only serve to destroy the high-end of the medical field, and guarantee that almost EVERYBODY gets the same crappy care that socialized hospitals already provide.  Turns out that rich people will ALWAYS get better healthcare because they can hire their own doctors.  The only people who will suffer are the hard-working middle class (that's you and me, Bobby) who cannot afford to have a doctor on staff at all times, and won't have health benefits provided by our employers anymore.  Also, the commercialization of patents on medical devices and pharmaceuticals is what drives innovation and the search for cures.  Socializing medicine would have horrific long-term effects that would bring all the progress we are making in curing and preventing ailments to a grinding halt.

I wish I could run up to Bear Mountain and meet you at the Lodge this weekend, but unfortunately, my story about the ER last Saturday was not just a made-up anecdote.  I crashed my Goldwing last Saturday, and I messed up my left hip pretty badly.  So, it hurts too much to ride just yet, and I refuse to ride under the influence of Vicodin.  Plus, I'm waiting for a new front wheel to come via UPS.  So, instead of riding, I'm going sailing this weekend!!!

I definitely will go for a few rides up there starting next weekend, though.

Bill, I love ya but you are so full of Sh1t it breaks my heart. So much bottled up anger is not a healthy thing. I was 25 years old and I had a kidney stone.  My health insurance was free with no out of pocket. I wound up in a nice upscale hospital in Westchester. Two doctors and the nurses looked good and the food was fine. I am watching TV (also paid for) and I went channel 13 to our PBS station. I watched a documentary about NYC Hospitals in NYC, a working guy was brought into the ER with chest pains, he had health insurance etc. He went into cardiac arrest and they did not have a $13.00 set of leads to use on their defribulator. The doctors were cursing(it was PBS) as they tried to save this man and jury rig something. I watched him die on camera for $13.00. Sitting pretty as I was, I was disgusted at what I saw and it changed my thinking. Of course in your way of thinking, I deserved two Doctors and a nice comfy room since I was a highly paid professional and this guy was only a construction worker with a GED or less, they are a dime a dozen. You and I deserve better because we are better. If some poor family sweating out an existence at minimum wage can't afford to pay half their income to insure their lids, let's fine them so they can skip and meal or two a week.
I am a Conservative Republican, but I know right from wrong, and not helping the sick and elderly is just plain wrong. The country I live in and fought for, is, or should be better than that.
Having said that, If I see ya up around Bear Mountain, we can hit the Lodge and have coffee or a brew.  ;D   
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Offline seaweb11

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Re: medical care
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2008, 11:04:58 PM »
......and fools will wander around the woods for ever until they are handed a compass.



edbikerii  ....I have a GPS I can send you ::)

But some one who is his brothers keeper probably programed it, it won't work for you.

Offline edbikerii

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Re: medical care
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2008, 11:36:49 PM »
Oh, I see, since you've got nothing, you throught a couple of wiseass one-liners would make you look smart.  Sorry, that didn't "fool" me.

......and fools will wander around the woods for ever until they are handed a compass.



edbikerii  ....I have a GPS I can send you ::)

But some one who is his brothers keeper probably programed it, it won't work for you.
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Offline Demon67

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Re: medical care
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2008, 04:59:20 AM »
QK Ed I'll have get back to you, I've got to work on the house over the weekend. Oh and of course I disagree.
Bill the demon.

Offline BobbyR

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Re: medical care
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2008, 07:45:46 AM »
First off, get it right, my name's Ed, not Bill! ;D

At first I wasn't sure you were referring to me because I don't fit the "bottled up anger" comment.  What's that all about, anyway?

Clearly, we have a little miscommunication going on here about the NYC Hospitals issue.  Yes, the socialized hospitals RUN BY NYC Health and Hospitals Corporation are PURE CRAP.  Ask anybody -- even Bloomberg.  Giuliani has been very vocal about this, too.  Ask any NYC cop if he would want to be taken to Bellevue, Metropolitan, Lincoln, or Harlem hospital after being shot, and you'll see him cower in fear.  THAT IS THE STATE OF SOCIALIZED MEDICINE IN BIG CITIES LIKE NEW YORK.  Maybe things are different in rural Canada, but those situations are not relevant to the 200+ Million Americans who live in big cities in the United States of America.

NY Presbyterian (AKA New York Hospital, AKA Cornell Weill) is an exceptional private hospital where people fly from all over the world for treatments for rare and difficult cancers and other ailments.  The Shah of Iran even flew to NY to be treated at NY Hospital for cancer in 1979 (unfortunately, he died the following year in a hospital in Cairo http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/05/us/05newsom.html?fta=y).  They flew him in for treatment at NY Hospital under a pseudonym despite massive international political pressure because NY Hospital was THE ONLY PLACE IN THE WORLD WHERE HE STOOD A CHANCE OF SURVIVING.

No Bobby, I didn't say that I'm better than a construction worker.  I did say that I'm better than a welfare crackhead, though.  Can't say I'd ever back away from that statement, either.  There is no freakin' way a common welfare crackhead deserves the same standard of medical care that working people do.

Also, you and I both know well that unionized construction workers in NYC make a hell of a lot of money (most make in the six figures -- not bad for somebody without a HS diploma), and they have excellent union medical benefits.  In fact, they cannot even nail in a nail without a foreman, an apprentice, and an assistant, all on the clock at the expense of the "evil, capitalist real estate developers".  Wanna take a guess how I know so much about union construction work?

The idea that people are going without medical care because they don't have insurance is pure bull.  Like I said, if you're too poor, then you can already qualify for Medicaid.  People with astonishingly high incomes qualify for medicaid, and they get treatment that sometimes exceeds that of working people (example: NYPD's GHI does not cover a lap-band surgery for morbid obesity, whereas medicaid does).

Socializing medicine will only serve to destroy the high-end of the medical field, and guarantee that almost EVERYBODY gets the same crappy care that socialized hospitals already provide.  Turns out that rich people will ALWAYS get better healthcare because they can hire their own doctors.  The only people who will suffer are the hard-working middle class (that's you and me, Bobby) who cannot afford to have a doctor on staff at all times, and won't have health benefits provided by our employers anymore.  Also, the commercialization of patents on medical devices and pharmaceuticals is what drives innovation and the search for cures.  Socializing medicine would have horrific long-term effects that would bring all the progress we are making in curing and preventing ailments to a grinding halt.

I wish I could run up to Bear Mountain and meet you at the Lodge this weekend, but unfortunately, my story about the ER last Saturday was not just a made-up anecdote.  I crashed my Goldwing last Saturday, and I messed up my left hip pretty badly.  So, it hurts too much to ride just yet, and I refuse to ride under the influence of Vicodin.  Plus, I'm waiting for a new front wheel to come via UPS.  So, instead of riding, I'm going sailing this weekend!!!

I definitely will go for a few rides up there starting next weekend, though.

Bill, I love ya but you are so full of Sh1t it breaks my heart. So much bottled up anger is not a healthy thing. I was 25 years old and I had a kidney stone.  My health insurance was free with no out of pocket. I wound up in a nice upscale hospital in Westchester. Two doctors and the nurses looked good and the food was fine. I am watching TV (also paid for) and I went channel 13 to our PBS station. I watched a documentary about NYC Hospitals in NYC, a working guy was brought into the ER with chest pains, he had health insurance etc. He went into cardiac arrest and they did not have a $13.00 set of leads to use on their defribulator. The doctors were cursing(it was PBS) as they tried to save this man and jury rig something. I watched him die on camera for $13.00. Sitting pretty as I was, I was disgusted at what I saw and it changed my thinking. Of course in your way of thinking, I deserved two Doctors and a nice comfy room since I was a highly paid professional and this guy was only a construction worker with a GED or less, they are a dime a dozen. You and I deserve better because we are better. If some poor family sweating out an existence at minimum wage can't afford to pay half their income to insure their lids, let's fine them so they can skip and meal or two a week.
I am a Conservative Republican, but I know right from wrong, and not helping the sick and elderly is just plain wrong. The country I live in and fought for, is, or should be better than that.
Having said that, If I see ya up around Bear Mountain, we can hit the Lodge and have coffee or a brew.  ;D   
Sorry about that Ed, sorry about the hip also. Actually a recent study showed that the richest Americans are less healthy that the poor in the UK. The Doctors have more time to work on preventative care. Your health insurance company pays the Doctor to spend 5 minutes with you, he is told by the Health insurance company what drugs he can perscribe so the drug companies slow down development and turn out the same stuff since that is what the Insurance companies will pay for. The Insurance company tells him what tests are allowed, so, unless your Doctor has the time to make the calls and fill out the paperwork, you don't get the test. 

Each Doctor needs a 3 full time FTEs to process the paperwork, that is why there are fewer private offices today, they
are forming "groups" for that reason. Private Hospitals like Teaneck are are being forced out of business, so you may have to go to Newark or the Oranges.

Would it be nice to have your Doctor actually have time to listen to you. If you need a test, you get the test, if you need a certain drug you get the drug and you can afford it. In Canada the you can get all drugs you can get here, and cheaper because the Heath System negotiates the price. Your perscription insurer also negotiates the price with the drug companies BTW.

Walmart as evil as they are in many ways proved that point. Their $4.00 perscriptions which cover an amazing number of drugs was cut through a deals with the Pharma houses. They have volume. Think of what a national system could do. Will they keep researching, of course they will.

My Brother actually runs a Hospital in upstate New York. He advocates a National system because it would keep Community Hospitals alive. Most of us do not need the Mayo Clinic, or NYU, or any of the Mega Centers for most things. We need care for a broken bone, a bad case of the Flu, or a hernia operation. Once these small Hospitals close, the volume of people going to the mega centers will degrade the care.

Ed, you or anyone in the private sector could lose your job through no fault of your own, happens all the time. Now you can get CORBA and pay for it, but, it is crushingly expensive. When that runs out you are on your own until you find work with benefits. Maybe you are past the prime age employers are looking for, now what. You now in the public
system and you wind up at a City Hospital and it is what you describe. The City Hospitals in Toronto are clean, well equipped and staffed. But you wind up in some #$%*hole like Bellevue emergency (which is very good on gunshots and trauma). Think about the future Bro.
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Offline Frankenkit

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Re: medical care
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2008, 08:01:33 AM »
 
Quote
Actually a recent study showed that the richest Americans are less healthy that the poor in the UK. The Doctors have more time to work on preventative care. Your health insurance company pays the Doctor to spend 5 minutes with you, he is told by the Health insurance company what drugs he can perscribe so the drug companies slow down development and turn out the same stuff since that is what the Insurance companies will pay for. The Insurance company tells him what tests are allowed, so, unless your Doctor has the time to make the calls and fill out the paperwork, you don't get the test. 

To this, I'd like to add: a capitalist health care system has no reason to really research cures for Type 1 diabetes and other long-term, chronic illnesses as long as they can make money selling temporary fixes.  Pancreatic stem cell research?   Hell no, that's the devil's work! 

We'll just sell you a $50-$200 glucometer, $20 test strips every month, a $20 lancet pen for every time you break yours (heh)  $10-$20 in needles for your $100-300 (depending on the brand) insulin... or the multiple kinds if you have fast and slow acting types.  To that, we'll nickel and dime you to death with glucose tabs if you're truly watching your blood sugar levels and tend to dip low instead of go high.  We'll be waiting for you like vultures for the time(s) your sugar goes too high for too long and you go into diabetic ketoacidosis.  We'll also be waiting for you to have arteriosclerosis, nerve damage etc, and wait for your feet to rot off from diabetes-impaired blood flow and reduced sensation. 

Kids with CF- You're proper f*cked, too.  Sorry.  If you live into your 30s, you'll have the joy of knowing you cripple either your parents or yourselves or both with semi-annual hospital stays for lung problems among other things.  Our capitalist system protects innocent taxpayers from your debt.  Thanks!
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: medical care
« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2008, 08:24:30 AM »
any how, with prescription costs and parking meter it cost me $14.00 total so guys if you haven't got a health care system I truly pity you and I would force your politico's to do something about it before they are allowed to throw another war.
Bill the demon

Do you think that the value of the medical care was only $14?  Certainly the actual cost of your treatment and use of the facility was far higher than that, wouldn't you agree?
So, you are basically saying that you are proud of the fact that you used government henchmen to extort the actual cost difference of the service you garnered over and above what you paid?
Why isn't that government condoned thievery?  And, why are you proud of leeching off society?

How's that for a different point of view?

 ;D ;D ;D
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upperlake04

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Re: medical care
« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2008, 08:40:03 AM »

NY Presbyterian (AKA New York Hospital, AKA Cornell Weill) is an exceptional private hospital where people fly from all over the world for treatments for rare and difficult cancers and other ailments.  The Shah of Iran even flew to NY to be treated at NY Hospital for cancer in 1979 (unfortunately, he died the following year in a hospital in Cairo http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/05/us/05newsom.html?fta=y).  They flew him in for treatment at NY Hospital under a pseudonym despite massive international political pressure because NY Hospital was THE ONLY PLACE IN THE WORLD WHERE HE STOOD A CHANCE OF SURVIVING.

  Ed - While your arguments are generally logical and well researched, I hope that's not the best proof that your health care is the best in the world. The Shah arrived for treatment for lymphatic cancer on Oct 22/79 and died on July 27/80.  Hmmm, maybe he wouldn't have lived as long without going there ..
  Neither system is perfect. For anyone interested in comparisons, read- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems_compared
« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 09:28:24 AM by upperlake04 »

Offline CBGhia

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Re: medical care
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2008, 09:31:01 AM »
The reality is that we are already paying for everyones health care.  If you are broke and go to the emergency room they bill you.  If you can't pay the bill, the hospital writes it off and raises the rates for everyone else.  We are paying for it one way or another, but imagine if the hospital could spend 1/3 of its admin costs because billing was easier.  The system as a whole would be cheaper.  If you can cut out all of the BS costs associated with doctors and hospitals getting paid we would all pay less in the long run. 
I'm not a big fan of larger government, but in this case it would benefit everyone.   I will pay for my insurance with higher taxes or I will keep paying my 350 a month for insurance.  either way I guess I'm covered. 

BTW  I heard the argument that a large portion of uninsured Americans make 40k a year or more and should be able to afford insurance.  If I was self employed the same coverage I have now would cost me over 1400 a month.  anyone here making 40K have an extra 1400 a month they can give out?
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: medical care
« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2008, 10:52:54 AM »
any how, with prescription costs and parking meter it cost me $14.00 total so guys if you haven't got a health care system I truly pity you and I would force your politico's to do something about it before they are allowed to throw another war.
Bill the demon

Do you think that the value of the medical care was only $14?  Certainly the actual cost of your treatment and use of the facility was far higher than that, wouldn't you agree?
So, you are basically saying that you are proud of the fact that you used government henchmen to extort the actual cost difference of the service you garnered over and above what you paid?
Why isn't that government condoned thievery?  And, why are you proud of leeching off society?

How's that for a different point of view?

 ;D ;D ;D
First of he is not leeching from the society. You pay taxes into the healthcare system which is spread across the population. Of course the poor don't pay, but they don;t here either. In the UK the gasoline is taxed for National Healthcare which is why it is so expensive. Here I pay high gas taxes and get nothing. The US healtcare system is degrading, the theivery is the politicians taking "contributions" from the Insurance companies, Mike Moore outed the saintly Ms. Clinton who backed off a lot when the insurers laid the big checks on her.

How's that for a different point of view?
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Offline DRam

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Re: medical care
« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2008, 01:36:52 PM »
Ed's stand is the usual 'survival of the rich, to hell with the poor' conservative cant.  A friend of mine used to spout the same line, but now he's in his early sixties, wants to retire before medicare kicks in, and has found that his retirement income won't afford him health insurance.  COBRA is, of course, available but to his surprise is around $1000 / month and won't last to age 65.  BSBC?  More than that.  Much more.  This is a guy that has IRA's, stocks, and a retirement from his work, so it isn't a case of being dirt poor.   Strangely, his tune has changed some.  He now thinks we need to do something about medical costs.  Perhaps even look at (gasp) a national health care plan.

My, how circumstances can change a man's thinking.  He's still working and hating every minute of it.

There is also another side to the story.  When I retired, also before age 65, we thought we could shop around and find a less expensive policy than buying my office plan under COBRA.  We were wrong.  BSBC would cover us, but wanted roughly 85% of my retirement take home.  One company would cover me, but not my wife.  All others just said 'No" to both of us because of existing health problems.  For the record, neither of us smoke, drink or use drugs and fairly healthy other than asthma and the after effects of rheuthmatic fever - a leaky heart valve.

Apparently our vaunted privatly owned health insurance industry only works for those who don't need insurance.

We need national health care in the United States.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: medical care
« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2008, 02:34:09 PM »
An interesting read on how US medical care got to be where it is.  The article was published in 1994 when Hillary was pushing for national health care with the AMA as the controlling body.

I'm actually all for reform.  But, giving the AMA even more power is NOT what I have in mind.  I simply warn that you should be careful what you asked for, or you may not get what you bargained for.

Give this a read.  At the very least it's interesting.

http://www.healthe-livingnews.com/articles/american_medical_association_sorbid_history.html

Cheers,
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: medical care
« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2008, 03:30:35 PM »
Less than 1/2 the Doctors in the US belong to the AMA. The young ones are struggling to make a living, sounds silly but Doctoring is not what it used to be money wise. The kids in Medical School today have different expectations which is a good thing. They are in it to practice medicine.

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Re: medical care
« Reply #42 on: August 30, 2008, 07:13:24 PM »
personal attack deleted
« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 10:28:12 AM by fuzzybutt »

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: medical care
« Reply #43 on: August 30, 2008, 08:13:33 PM »
It's OK Fuzzy, we don't think you're a lowlife, it's just Ed, and we all know what a drongo he is, so don't take offence mate.

I'd love to know what Ed would do if he was incapacitated and could no longer work, and had no money and no employer to pay his medical insurance for him, I reckon he'd be the first to whine about the lack of socialized (or at least tax payer funded) health care.

An as far as AJ's rant about the constitution, geezus, that was written 200+ years ago mate, not by God, just by some guys who thought that America could be a fairer place under self rule. I'm sure they would have included "And free health care for all" if that was happening around the world at the time? Cheers, Terry. ;D
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Offline medic09

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Re: medical care
« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2008, 09:05:28 PM »
Less than 1/2 the Doctors in the US belong to the AMA. The young ones are struggling to make a living, sounds silly but Doctoring is not what it used to be money wise. The kids in Medical School today have different expectations which is a good thing. They are in it to practice medicine.

Sadly, Bobby, I seem to recall surveys showing just the opposite:  today's medical students are mostly in it for 'profession' and money.  Far less 'calling', or social service notions.  I honestly don't recall where I saw these, other than in one of the medical journals my wife receives.  This is also why many of today's students plan on going into high paying specialties rather than family practice and the like.

It is true that many docs today are struggling to pay the bills.  My wife ran a private practice.  Provided the best kind of care; family medicine the way we remembered it from our childhood.  Patients could get her on her phone, house calls, etc.  Her office was packed and busy every day.  For all that, we had trouble paying bills.  Insurances would drag their feet on getting payment out, and challenge billing on every little opportunity.  Medicare and Medicaid were among them.  Sometimes bills had to be resubmitted to the insurances for a third and fourth time before they would be paid.  That all meant endless extra hours working in the office not on patient care, just on bureaucratic paperwork.

The kicker to me?  Over a year after she closed the office, she was finally getting payment on some patients.  OVER A YEAR to get paid for medical care rendered in good faith when the patient needed it!  >:(

So now she makes a decent salary with good benefits and steady hours working for a gov't facility.  Her patients, especially the poorer ones, have lost out.  We weren't hoping to get rich; but we did want to pay our own bills on time each month without undue worry.  A lot of time, money (read: student loans!), and hard work went into creating that dream.  Many good and caring physicians have been driven out of providing good care by the present managed care in the US.  >:(
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Offline Ichiban 4

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Re: medical care
« Reply #45 on: August 31, 2008, 01:21:09 AM »
Well..

Of all the posts on this thread..Medic's and Kitsune's seem to make the most sense.  Fact is: most..if not all medical/dental school students in U.S. nowadays are preoccupied about making money..if not initially..then eventually when the costs of education start kicking-in. [Costs about $250,000 just for 4 years of med/dental school nowadays (not including texts, supplies, instruments)..close to $750,000 by the time all costs for starting a practice are figured in].

It didn't use to be that way here (until the 1980's or so..especially when Reagan administration cut government support/assistance programs for medical/dental education)  But the influence of AMA/ADA has always been strong here..and continues to dominate the approach (fee-for service..for profit model) and curriculum taught in all medical/dental schools.  So it's incorrect to pin all the blame on the conservatives/republicans..who nevertheless tend to reinforce the old profit motivated models.

But a very real complicating factor over the past 25 years or so..has been the rise to prominence of third-party interests..mainly pharmaceutical companies (that USED to be ancillary/supportive of the medical profession)..and insurance providers who have primary interests in providing profits to their investors..and secondary interests in providing health care to patients/clients.  As Kitsune also mentioned..many hospitals/clinics nowadays are for-profit..which means that if you don't have the means to pay for services/care..you don't get any.   

It is just not right for a country as rich in capital resources as the U.S. to have such glaring disparities between rich and poor with regard to health care availability..and is somewhat disgraceful when compared to virtually every other developed nation in the world (Great Britain, the E.U., Germany, France, Canada, Japan, etc.).

I usually try to refrain from naming individual posters on these threads..but I will say here that the ideas and perceptions about health care in the U.S by Edbikerii and perhaps a couple of others are simply misguided and/or misinformed.  If the intent is simply to gain attention on these forums..or to play devil's advocate..then such positions become more understandable.  But the fact remains that the U.S. has serious problems with the way that health care delivery is administered and/or made available to citizens of this country..and to say or imply otherwise..is simply to not understand the underlying factors involved.

Many from within the medical/dental professions here (including myself) do not advocate for..or believe that a single payer or purely socialized system of delivery is particularly desirable or appropriate.  Statements or worries about "socialized medicine" are not really the issue here.

What is indicated or preferable to many of us though..is that third-party interests be greatly diminished in the influence they have..as well as the large expenses they incur (that have little to do with actual health care delivery) within the system.  A similar restriction on the amount of influence and political lobbying done by pharmaceutical companies seems necessary. 

Thirdly..with a return to public/government assisted programs for medical education (which are paid for by giving back to communities through working in low income/poorer communities)..this then will reduce the pressure felt by newly graduating doctors, dentists, nurses, et al. to pay back their various student loans, etc..and thereby shift the focus away somewhat from the money-making emphasis health care practitioners often feel.

With regard to the current line-up of political hopefuls..neither candidate seems fully aware or savvy about the current health care dilemma.  But Obama seems much more willing to engage the problems than either McCain or the republicans in general.  A McCain administration seems like it would be essentially business as usual for the insurance and pharmaceutical interests.  An Obama administration seems like it would at least start moving in the direction of greater availability and affordability to a greater number of Americans.

I certainly do not have clear ideas about what an Obama administration would give us in 4 or 8 years with health care in this country..but am willing to give it a try..and would love to see some positive movement on this issue..after more than 40 years of frustration within the health care delivery system.

Ichi
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 03:48:26 PM by Ichiban 4 »
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: medical care
« Reply #46 on: August 31, 2008, 03:29:20 AM »
I had a medical check up on Friday. I got there at 9.30 and was seen straight away, had an eye test (not too good, sadly) a hearing test (surprisingly very good) got weighed (too fat) measured (6'3", I'm an inch shorter than 10 years ago) had my blood tested for everything from cholesterol to diabetes, had to give them a urine sample (looked a bit dark to me, too much coffee, perhaps?) and had four inoculations. (Tetanus, Hep B and a couple of others I've forgotten, but geez, my arms hurt!)

The doctor saw me straight away and looked in my mouth, my ears, my eyes, didn't stick his finger up my butt (kinda disappointing.....) checked my reflexes, listened to my heart and lungs and did some other tests. I walked out 3 hours later, wondering what that appointment would have cost if I weren't in the Army..............  ;D 
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline DRam

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Re: medical care
« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2008, 03:09:56 PM »
Medic09 and Ichiban 4:  thanks for an inside look at what's going on from the doctor's viewpoint.  My family doctor backs you up all the way.

Offline DammitDan

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Re: medical care
« Reply #48 on: August 31, 2008, 03:19:13 PM »
didn't stick his finger up my butt (kinda disappointing.....)

You made me drool on my keyboard from laughing  :D
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: medical care
« Reply #49 on: August 31, 2008, 03:54:22 PM »
didn't stick his finger up my butt (kinda disappointing.....)

You made me drool on my keyboard from laughing  :D

Well it's just that I was ready for it Dan, and it never came????  ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)