Author Topic: medical care  (Read 10236 times)

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: medical care
« Reply #100 on: September 10, 2008, 03:34:28 PM »
I think this just supports my assertion that medical care has been supplanted by medical business.  Care only when convenient (or profitable) for the provider.  Capitalism at it's finest.

You can thank the AMA for the higher education costs.  They were the ones to lobby for (and win) a reduction of medical schools and the number of doctors, in order to keep salaries high, some say bloated.  Insurance companies reacted to the high payouts, as it clearly affected their income and bottom line.

Any government sanctioned "program" is going to be heavy on the bureaucracy.  It's what they know.  It's standard practice to delay payouts as long as they can.  The longer they hold on to the money, the more interest it earns them.  The game is to deny their excuses for payout.

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Offline medic09

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Re: medical care
« Reply #101 on: September 10, 2008, 04:05:35 PM »
I dunno Lloyd, I hope I didn't misunderstand 'care only when convenient (or profitable) for the provider.'  Doctors have to pay their bills like everyone else.  What's more, there are many many fine physicians practicing today while making far less than they might.  Many professions are making more than family practice physicians.  Treating for free has some limits.  The rent and utilities still must be paid.  Equipment and supplies still must be bought.  Insurance is very expensive.  That's one of the reasons that some good FP docs don't do OB.

The ones creating the conditions that limit availability and care are the payors, the insurances; not the physicians.  The way my wife and many of her colleagues practice and give to their patients and communities is hardly 'capitalism at it's finest'. 

:(
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: medical care
« Reply #102 on: September 10, 2008, 05:16:37 PM »
I still support National Health Care. It will take a while to sort it out but in the end it will be worth it. The above stories support my position.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: medical care
« Reply #103 on: September 10, 2008, 06:25:17 PM »
Medic,
I'm not saying that doctors should work for free, unless they choose to do so.  Certainly a doctor should be able to fill out an insurance form or have an assistant that can do so correctly to avoid "technical" mistakes.
Medicare is not free care.    When a doctor refuses medicare patients he is saying that other customers needs are more important than those who have a different payment method.  Or, one that pays at a higher premium is more important.  Or, only the wealthy warrant medical care at all.

It's not the same as a mechanic who can avoid working on a car.  The patron suffering from this non-service is largely mental.  And, service can be deferred without much detriment.  They lady with the melanoma doesn't have that luxury.  Melanomas with deferred treatment result in death for the afflicted.  Why?  Because the doctor doesn't get enough profit from making a referral?  How is that NOT capitalism?

The AMA has lobbied to create a monopoly for it's members on most medical services.  To have a monopoly and then pick and chose who you help for hire is ethical?  What happened to "do no harm"?  And, aside from the legality, how is this different from the relationship between a drug addict and their drug supplier?  It's pay my price or suffer!

I can certainly understand the skills of a doctor and the skills of an MBA are very different.  However, the AMA created a very profitable industry and limited those that could participate.  This industry also includes the schools that train doctors as they want their piece of the doctor income, as well.  Competition among schools was also diminished with help from the AMA and state governments.  With so many dollars at stake, there is no end of institutions that want to take a bite.  These other institutions DO have MBAs, along with bureaucrats, who sponge the dollars their way with little contribution to the service provided, other than push a paper from one side of the desk to the other.

While I have a hard time blaming all doctors for the situation on an individual basis, it is certainly the body of doctors that are, at least partly, to blame, simply from their association, and support of the AMA.  They themselves operate as a bureaucracy, and having it filter down to individual practice was inevitable.  It's a shame the cold bureaucratic attitude toward patrons is beginning to impact what began as a life serving practice.

Btw, here's what I see happening locally.  Doctors are teaming up to share a billing service that handles the insurance claims.  They also share building facilities.   Few it seems, can go it alone, as it could be done in the 80s. 

 :(


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Offline BobbyR

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Re: medical care
« Reply #104 on: September 10, 2008, 07:43:13 PM »
It takes 3 FTE equvalents to support one Doctor in filling out the paperwork. You are seeing these megagroups forming for that reason. They need automated systems and a dedicated staff few private practitioners could afford.
Medicare has a terrible reputation with Doctors and Hospitals. They pay late or they send a reduced amount, when questioned or challenged they say "oops" and you get the additional funds 180 days later. Hospitals suffer from this greatly, and they have to take Medicare. Medicare uses this delaying tactic to manage their cash flow. Private insurers deny or delay claims since their business model is collecting premiums not paying claims.   
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Offline medic09

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Re: medical care
« Reply #105 on: September 10, 2008, 09:27:10 PM »
Certainly a doctor should be able to fill out an insurance form or have an assistant that can do so correctly to avoid "technical" mistakes.

ICD9 codes and billing are a bureaucratic nightmare.  There are entire courses given teaching how to wade through the process.  And then the rules get changed every so often.  Physicians are trained in the sciences and clinical thinking; business management is another profession; one that doctors once upon a time didn't need a whole education in just to function.  An assistant?  Sure, let's inflate the staff so that care costs more.   That, of course, is precisely the direction all the problems lie in.[/quote]

Quote
When a doctor refuses medicare patients he is saying that other customers needs are more important than those who have a different payment method.  Or, one that pays at a higher premium is more important.  Or, only the wealthy warrant medical care at all.

It's not the same as a mechanic who can avoid working on a car.  The patron suffering from this non-service is largely mental.  And, service can be deferred without much detriment.  They lady with the melanoma doesn't have that luxury.  Melanomas with deferred treatment result in death for the afflicted.  Why?  Because the doctor doesn't get enough profit from making a referral?

Okay, I'll draw a distinction here.  I only really know about primary care physicians.  When they refuse Medicare they aren't making a value judgement about the patient.  They are saying 'if I don't get paid and in a timely fashion, I will go out of business and then no patients will get treated.'  I was not exaggerating earlier.  Medicare withholds payments, makes billing very difficult (and expensive if you use a billing service...driving up the cost of care which the doctor then carries not the Medicare patient), and pays very late when they pay.  Paying my wife for patients she had treated more than a year earlier is unconscionable.  You can be sure our creditors weren't waiting to get paid in the meantime.  In poor areas like New Mexico, a family practitioner likely nets the same as their auto mechanic.  So limiting the Medicare patients is a way of keeping a practice running, not just to pay the bills, but so that other patients can indeed be treated.  CNNMoney reports the median expected income (gross) for a family practice physician is $156,000.  It is much less in poor states like ours.  When you remove taxes and all the costs of running a practice, what remains doesn't even justify the $100,000 in student loans to be paid off. (Many owe more; my wife went to a cheaper state school.)  Oh, and did we mention the doctor is likely working an 80+ hour week?  Half of which is just fighting the bureaucracy.  And for all that there are still doctors, like my wife, who make house calls, handle hospice care, give patients their phone number (yes, her personal cell phone), and have neighbours knock on the door when they've already gone to bed.  Profit?  I would have liked to see it!  She didn't leave private practice (though neighbours still come to the door in the middle of the night) because of poor profits.  She left private practice because Medicare and other insurances created a situation where a hard-working kid in college couldn't get the help from her folks we think they deserved.  (We've got three kids who are college grads, and they didn't get half the help from us that they deserved.)  She left because going into the office on a Saturday night or Sunday to do billing (to keep costs down), and then get paid late still left us juggling bills and holding the bag.

Let's not forget that the first three years or so, a resident is practicing medicine, but working 100 hours a week and making less than $40,000/year.  During those years, I made more as a schoolteacher than my wife did as a physician.

I don't know what AMA is to blame for, but it isn't for what I've just described.  Oh, and my wife and many other physicians in the US don't belong to AMA.

I don't know which primary care practitioners you go to, but I see very little of "cold bureaucratic attitude toward patrons is beginning to impact what began as a life serving practice."  I see people wracking their brains, busting their butts, and taking to heart and grieving every patient who suffers.  And I see a lot of resentment that somehow the doctors are considered the bad guys when they ask little more than to keep their noses above water.  Our plumber and roofing guys have more disposable income than we do, despite the 'life serving practice' provided every single day without discrimination.

Ironically, my wife had started out in a different specialty.  Had she stayed there, we would have been financially secure, even a bit comfortable.  She got punished by the system for moving into primary care practice, and has people now accusing her and her colleagues of cold attitude and profit chasing to boot!  The reimbursement system is making good primary practice impossible, and even some of the more idealistic med students are afraid now to go into primary care.

The skewed values do not lie with the physicians.  The skewed values lie with a society that says medicine and patient care should be just another business, and impose that on the medical profession.  It is the same society that pays more for entertainment (sports, etc.) than education.  It is the same society where a paramedic makes little more than the Domino's guy.  As BobbyR pointed out, Medicare abuses the practitioners, and then leaves you thinking the docs are just cold hearted, money grubbing mercenaries.

« Last Edit: September 10, 2008, 09:35:40 PM by medic09 »
Mordechai

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masonryman

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Re: medical care
« Reply #106 on: September 11, 2008, 03:02:31 AM »
It's not just the medical field, it sounds the same as being a private contractor in any field... That pay request was not filled out properly, send us another and we'll look at it next month...


Offline Demon67

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Re: medical care
« Reply #107 on: September 11, 2008, 04:41:55 AM »
I know my doc #$%*es about Ontario health care, but he still seems to get paid regularly and he has built a new house ( by which I mean that he seems to have put down roots, not that he's getting rich ) so I don't suppose that he is going to move to the land of untrammeled enterprise tomorrow, so here at least the system works.
Bill the demon.

Offline medic09

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Re: medical care
« Reply #108 on: September 11, 2008, 06:26:17 AM »
Bill, I've lived and worked in Israel, Canada, and the US.  In many ways the level of care available in the US surpasses anything.  There is a reason that sick old oil sheiks come to the US for care.  OTOH, on a strictly personal level I think much care was more accessible in Israel and Canada.  I spent time at the cancer center at Hadassah Ein Karem, and though the place was pretty bare bones, you could see poor people getting the same advanced care as everyone.  When I did pastoral care visits at BC Cancer Center, it was pretty much the same thing.  Whatever national insurance provided, everyone got.  OTOH, the system is going broke in Israel and I hear Great Britain has also had it's woes.  I remember 20 years ago that MRI machines developed and made in Israel were to be found in many places in the US, but only one hospital in Jerusalem could afford it at the time.  In Canada a surgeon told me that he'd have to wait months to get a scan of my knee to confirm his diagnosis, so he might as well treat me without it.

I have no simple answers.  And I know that in my ER every night of the week we treat people who are homeless and nameless.  Whatever the doctor orders, they get. So they are getting care, at least as a stopgap measure.  Of course, many regular poor folks don't make it to the ER and fall between the cracks without care.  Meanwhile, the ERs in the US get overwhelmed as people use them for the primary care (at taxpayers' expense) that they cannot get outside. (That is not, BTW, the primary cause of ER overcrowding across the country; but ask any of us on any given night and we'll tell you we cannot keep up with the numbers of people who come in with primary care problems.)

As I say, in nationalized systems that I've seen first hand there was the comfort for the workers of knowing they would get paid on time whatever their rate is.  For the patients, it was knowing that despite the limitations on elective care, they would receive emergency and critical care just for carrying that little plastic card.

Meanwhile, we all have to pitch in and find ways for those in need at any level to get pointed to the right places to receive the right care.  There are a lot of opportunities missed in the US right now.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: medical care
« Reply #109 on: September 11, 2008, 12:48:28 PM »
The AMA has less than 50% membership among licensed physicians. However, the physicians do not have a Lobby so the AMA by default has more clout. One instance in which the AMA did some serious damage was during the Truman administration. Harry Truman was VP and rose to President when Roosevelt passed away. Harry was a plain talking man and plain thinking man. He knew there was a shortage of physicians, he wanted to fund a Medical School attached to every large University. The AMA squeezed $50.00 form each member to lobby against it.
While the US may have pockets of medical excellence, it is not evenly distributed. One recent study showed the poorest Englishman was healthier than the richest Americans. It may be the Guiness  ;D   
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Offline DonD

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Re: medical care
« Reply #110 on: September 11, 2008, 03:13:38 PM »
I guess I like the idea of having all my medical care taken care of, no matter how serious.  The only thing that scares me is what kind of reach into my personal life the government would then feel entitled to.  I hate everything about smoking, but I support people having the freedom to smoke.  Currently, it is unconstitutional to outlaw smoking anywhere except for "public" taxpayer-funded areas, since you can choose to not go into a bar, but you have to go to the DMV (if you have a car).  Think how much easier it would be to outlaw smoking if healthcare was taxpayer funded.

But would it stop with smoking?  What about other "dangerous" activities that could potentially cost the taxpayers more for medical care like skydiving, eating at McDonalds, watching too much tv while avoiding exercise, even riding motorcycles?  I haven't seen other countries with socialized healthcare outlaw these activities, but I also know how lawmakers operate in the U.S.

What about genetic testing on the unborn to determine potential diseases?  Could it lead to mandatory termination of those pregnancies if the disease would require a lifetime of expensive treatment? (not a pro-life zealot btw)

That is my only argument against socialized healthcare.  It would be the foot-in-the-door for an unprecedented expansion of government oversight of our personal lives.

Offline BobbyR

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Re: medical care
« Reply #111 on: September 11, 2008, 05:53:32 PM »
I guess I like the idea of having all my medical care taken care of, no matter how serious.  The only thing that scares me is what kind of reach into my personal life the government would then feel entitled to.  I hate everything about smoking, but I support people having the freedom to smoke.  Currently, it is unconstitutional to outlaw smoking anywhere except for "public" taxpayer-funded areas, since you can choose to not go into a bar, but you have to go to the DMV (if you have a car).  Think how much easier it would be to outlaw smoking if healthcare was taxpayer funded.

But would it stop with smoking?  What about other "dangerous" activities that could potentially cost the taxpayers more for medical care like skydiving, eating at McDonalds, watching too much tv while avoiding exercise, even riding motorcycles?  I haven't seen other countries with socialized healthcare outlaw these activities, but I also know how lawmakers operate in the U.S.

What about genetic testing on the unborn to determine potential diseases?  Could it lead to mandatory termination of those pregnancies if the disease would require a lifetime of expensive treatment? (not a pro-life zealot btw)

That is my only argument against socialized healthcare.  It would be the foot-in-the-door for an unprecedented expansion of government oversight of our personal lives.

That is always a risk and the cure is to pressure the politicians not to allow that to happen. Politicians want to get elected more that they want to regulate your activities. The partial smoking bans in the Atlantic City Casinos is lowering  their business now. When it kicks in next month, it will really hurt them. There should be smoke free Bars and smoker friendly Bars, the patrons make their choices. The basic idea behind freedom is having a choice.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline Demon67

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Re: medical care
« Reply #112 on: September 12, 2008, 05:34:49 AM »
Guys I am the last one to claim that our health care system is perfect, and I guess to a certain extent I tossed this thread out to tickle you into pushing for universal health care in the states, to see if you could come up with a better system than what we have so that we could take the better bits and graft them into ours, I know that people say well it doesn't work like that in all the cities, my point was if I can expect decent care in the great beyond of my country every one should expect it city, rural or what ever. (great beyond outside of Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, etc) For you guys that are not Canadian the reason it was started here was a Baptist minister named Tommy Douglas had bunches of farmers that he knew loose their farms because of medical bills and he didn't think that was right and actually did something about it instead of mouthing platitudes ( he became a member of Parliament and when he retired received a standing ovation from all members and speeches from all party leaders not just because of long service, but because service to the people) and I'm not religious but even I can see the value of the man.
Bill the demon

Offline BobbyR

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Re: medical care
« Reply #113 on: September 12, 2008, 06:28:57 AM »
Guys I am the last one to claim that our health care system is perfect, and I guess to a certain extent I tossed this thread out to tickle you into pushing for universal health care in the states, to see if you could come up with a better system than what we have so that we could take the better bits and graft them into ours, I know that people say well it doesn't work like that in all the cities, my point was if I can expect decent care in the great beyond of my country every one should expect it city, rural or what ever. (great beyond outside of Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, etc) For you guys that are not Canadian the reason it was started here was a Baptist minister named Tommy Douglas had bunches of farmers that he knew loose their farms because of medical bills and he didn't think that was right and actually did something about it instead of mouthing platitudes ( he became a member of Parliament and when he retired received a standing ovation from all members and speeches from all party leaders not just because of long service, but because service to the people) and I'm not religious but even I can see the value of the man.
Bill the demon
I wish we had a Tommy Douglas here. Sadly we do not
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: medical care
« Reply #114 on: September 12, 2008, 08:12:09 AM »
We don't have too many farmers here losing their land because of medical bills, either.  Canadian healthcare simply doesn't apply in the United States.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: medical care
« Reply #115 on: September 12, 2008, 08:55:18 AM »
We don't have too many farmers here losing their land because of medical bills, either.  Canadian healthcare simply doesn't apply in the United States.
Gee Ed, are you also an expert on farming and the challenges of the farming community.
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: medical care
« Reply #116 on: September 12, 2008, 10:39:25 AM »
What?  You don't think the farm tax subsidies that we pay for are enough incentive for non-farmer taxpayers to figure out what's really going on?

We don't have too many farmers here losing their land because of medical bills, either.  Canadian healthcare simply doesn't apply in the United States.
Gee Ed, are you also an expert on farming and the challenges of the farming community.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: medical care
« Reply #117 on: September 12, 2008, 12:35:26 PM »
What?  You don't think the farm tax subsidies that we pay for are enough incentive for non-farmer taxpayers to figure out what's really going on?

We don't have too many farmers here losing their land because of medical bills, either.  Canadian healthcare simply doesn't apply in the United States.
Gee Ed, are you also an expert on farming and the challenges of the farming community.
Ask JayB what subsidies he gets as a small Farmer, the answer is probably 0. It is the Corporate farmers that get the money. A bit of insight from the heartland:

http://westernfarmpress.com/news/inflation-brandon-0904/

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Offline tortelvis

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Re: medical care
« Reply #118 on: September 12, 2008, 02:45:06 PM »
I'm with demon on this one, I think my government should be able to force me to pay for someone else's medical care even though the Constitution doesn't grant them that power. While we are at it, lets shred the Constitution and all become serfs to the state because freedom is bad and socialism is the best!  Sorry, I believe in freedom and individual rights granted by God regardless of what infantile names you may wish to call me.

AJ, no name calling from me, but you need to experience both types of healthcare to have any credibilty. I spent 25 years in the UK and have 1st hand experience of their system. Given the choice I'll take theirs every time. It isn't free, it just isn't designed to make the medical industry rich(er). I had NHS contributions taken out of my pay every week for 25 years. Prescriptions have a set price of about $20 last time I used it. I had a very bad accident in '98 and had 5  consultant surgeons working on me, then spent 2 and 1/2 years in physiotherapy. I didn't have to pay a cent; I had already been paying for 18 years. I will say that if you don't think that GWB has eroded the freedoms that our forefathers fought for, you are very sadly mistaken, IMHO.

Offline 74cb750

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Re: medical care
« Reply #119 on: September 14, 2008, 12:37:56 AM »
what was wrong w the plan hillary clinton proposed a few years back?

my brother in montréal, canada felt he was paying way too much in taxes and the delays in care were difficult to deal wtih (ten years ago). since retirement he doesn't complain about the costs as much. :o
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: medical care
« Reply #120 on: September 14, 2008, 01:50:36 PM »
Total horse#$%*.  I personally know several homeowners who "farm" on their properties in order to just barely sell enough produce to avoid real estate taxes, which are subsidized by the fed for farmers.

What?  You don't think the farm tax subsidies that we pay for are enough incentive for non-farmer taxpayers to figure out what's really going on?

We don't have too many farmers here losing their land because of medical bills, either.  Canadian healthcare simply doesn't apply in the United States.
Gee Ed, are you also an expert on farming and the challenges of the farming community.
Ask JayB what subsidies he gets as a small Farmer, the answer is probably 0. It is the Corporate farmers that get the money. A bit of insight from the heartland:

http://westernfarmpress.com/news/inflation-brandon-0904/


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Offline BobbyR

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Re: medical care
« Reply #121 on: September 14, 2008, 02:44:08 PM »
Total horse#$%*.  I personally know several homeowners who "farm" on their properties in order to just barely sell enough produce to avoid real estate taxes, which are subsidized by the fed for farmers.

What?  You don't think the farm tax subsidies that we pay for are enough incentive for non-farmer taxpayers to figure out what's really going on?

We don't have too many farmers here losing their land because of medical bills, either.  Canadian healthcare simply doesn't apply in the United States.
Gee Ed, are you also an expert on farming and the challenges of the farming community.
Ask JayB what subsidies he gets as a small Farmer, the answer is probably 0. It is the Corporate farmers that get the money. A bit of insight from the heartland:

http://westernfarmpress.com/news/inflation-brandon-0904/


Yes you can call yourself a Farm if you have enough acreage and meet a few other criteria. You get property taxed at a Farm rate mostly under open space programs. it varies from town to town and it is hardly a subsidy. BTW do you know Dick?  I thought not.
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: medical care
« Reply #122 on: September 14, 2008, 05:00:49 PM »
Not a subsidy?  Yeah, right.  What do you call it then?  Here are some more NJ suburban "farmers" who do real well on farm subsidies, may of whom have never seen the land they get subsidies from the government not to farm:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1346263/posts

Total horse#$%*.  I personally know several homeowners who "farm" on their properties in order to just barely sell enough produce to avoid real estate taxes, which are subsidized by the fed for farmers.

What?  You don't think the farm tax subsidies that we pay for are enough incentive for non-farmer taxpayers to figure out what's really going on?

We don't have too many farmers here losing their land because of medical bills, either.  Canadian healthcare simply doesn't apply in the United States.
Gee Ed, are you also an expert on farming and the challenges of the farming community.
Ask JayB what subsidies he gets as a small Farmer, the answer is probably 0. It is the Corporate farmers that get the money. A bit of insight from the heartland:

http://westernfarmpress.com/news/inflation-brandon-0904/


Yes you can call yourself a Farm if you have enough acreage and meet a few other criteria. You get property taxed at a Farm rate mostly under open space programs. it varies from town to town and it is hardly a subsidy. BTW do you know Dick?  I thought not.
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Offline Demon67

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Re: medical care
« Reply #123 on: September 14, 2008, 05:07:36 PM »
You know its one thing to have all your farm production gathered together in a few corporate farms but what happens when they have a problem, whose your local supplier? If they have all gotten out of farming what do you do Ed, personally ?
Bill the demon.

Offline BobbyR

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Re: medical care
« Reply #124 on: September 14, 2008, 05:22:29 PM »
You know its one thing to have all your farm production gathered together in a few corporate farms but what happens when they have a problem, whose your local supplier? If they have all gotten out of farming what do you do Ed, personally ?
Bill the demon.
I no longer take Ed seriously. He is putting us all on. Let's see at one point not long ago he lived in NY and had his own business. Now he is somewhere in NJ working for someone else with great benefits. A gas tanker burned and destroyed a bridge near his home, that would put him somewhere near the Yonkers Bronx border. Then he has a community Hospital in Teaneck NJ, which is across the Hudson River from upper Manhattan and very densely populated. Ed is probably a deep cover CIA agent posing as a Motorcyclist. Or, he is in witness protection. He gets around more than Santa.
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