Author Topic: Oil Pumps  (Read 3160 times)

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Offline Pinhead

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Oil Pumps
« on: August 30, 2008, 01:14:55 pm »
I found an article on GoFastNews.com that describes how to modify a SBC oil pump to put out more pressure with less drag. I would describe it as "porting" the pump much like you would port cylinder heads.

Here's the link: http://www.gofastnews.com/board/technical-articles/433-sb-chevy-zero-cost-oil-pump-power-mods.html

And a picture, as an example of what would be done to the SBC pump.



Would anyone possibly post some pics of the inside of our pumps? I would like to see if it would be possible to extend the idea to our bikes.
Doug

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Offline Sporkfly

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Re: Oil Pumps
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2008, 01:26:43 pm »
Well since I'm having oil pressure problems (see my thread, give me some ideas) I might have my pump off again. In that case I might be able to get some pictures up.
1977 CB550K
1979 GL1000 - Current project, winter '09-'10
1979 CX500
1976 Suzuki GT500 Titan

Offline derkafer

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Re: Oil Pumps
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2008, 12:49:37 am »
Hmm... *grabs popcorn* Seems interesting!

troppo

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Re: Oil Pumps
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2008, 12:52:29 am »
That does look like a great technique.
I wonder what some of our guru`s will say to it

Offline Hush

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Re: Oil Pumps
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2008, 02:30:16 am »
Hmm easy idea, smart if it works, is there enough meat in Honda oil pumps to perform this sacrilege?
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline Sporkfly

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Re: Oil Pumps
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2008, 08:55:40 am »
Well, there's plenty of meat. I just don't know where you'd start (This is off of a '77 550k)



1977 CB550K
1979 GL1000 - Current project, winter '09-'10
1979 CX500
1976 Suzuki GT500 Titan

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Oil Pumps
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2008, 09:00:36 am »
I've gathered 5 CB750 pumps to try stuff like this with them, this winter. This pump is a 2-section, where the primary pulls oil from the tank and feeds the main journal. The second section scavenges the crankcase, then splits the output between the transmission shafts and the oil tank return.

My goal is to make a high-flow CB750 pump with a bit more pressure in commuter traffic. It's a selfish goal, for my bike, but the results will probably end up here at SOHC4 and in my upcoming 750 book...  ;)

The largest issue in these particular pumps: seals and O-rings, as Honda has never supplied the seals as a replacement part. The O-rings were changed (sizes) many times by Honda over the years (many K0 bikes had no locating dowels, some (2) actually got to Spring Honda in 1970 without O-rings, making a mess of a blue-green and a red 750K0  :o ). The version found in the late K2 engines seemed to be where they finally settled on an O-ring size (with dowels) that made them hapy, and didn't leak.

The next issue: dirt enters the scavenge side and chews up the rotor-cover interface, losing tranny-scavenge pressure and flow. Third issue: similar wear on the main feed side.

The inlet/outlet tract on the 750 pumps isn't amenable to the technique shown above, but I wonder about the 500/550 pumps? Certainly the 500, in particular, could benefit.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Sporkfly

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Re: Oil Pumps
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2008, 09:17:51 am »
Maybe I'm just dense, but I wouldn't know where to start with the 550 pump. I think I'd want to get a couple spares before I mess with it.
1977 CB550K
1979 GL1000 - Current project, winter '09-'10
1979 CX500
1976 Suzuki GT500 Titan

Offline Soos

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Re: Oil Pumps
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2008, 09:23:50 am »
Interesting....

I don't see why it wouldn't help.

Seeing this gave me the thought i might want to do this to the next cb650 motor i'm working on now(many many mods on that one to go still, haven't even finished boring the upper motor case for the larger sleeves yet).

I just took apart a spare oil pump from a motor i had die on me...
I'm not too sure how much of a boost the 650 would get though.
It uses a gear with in a gear type pump... can't remember the correct term for that type of pump gear setup... trichoidal comes to mind offhand for some reason....


l8r
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"Brix will be shat by your neighbors." - schwebel
(61mm)652cc 1979 cb650

Offline Soos

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Re: Oil Pumps
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2008, 09:25:12 am »
sorry no pics, still haven't hooked the camera dock up to the new 'puter.

l8r
-=≡ Soos ≡=-
Just think to yourself what would Alowishus Devander Abercrombie do?
"Brix will be shat by your neighbors." - schwebel
(61mm)652cc 1979 cb650

Offline Pinhead

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Re: Oil Pumps
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2008, 06:22:45 pm »
Interesting....

I don't see why it wouldn't help.

Seeing this gave me the thought i might want to do this to the next cb650 motor i'm working on now(many many mods on that one to go still, haven't even finished boring the upper motor case for the larger sleeves yet).

I just took apart a spare oil pump from a motor i had die on me...
I'm not too sure how much of a boost the 650 would get though.
It uses a gear with in a gear type pump... can't remember the correct term for that type of pump gear setup... trichoidal comes to mind offhand for some reason....


l8r

Is it the same type of pump as the SBC shown above? Click on the link to the article and it'll take you to more pictures; two gears mesh together, and the oil squeezes out between the gears.
Doug

Click --> Cheap Regulator/Rectifier for any of Honda's 3-phase charging systems (all SOHC4's).

GM HEI Ignition Conversion

Quote from: TwoTired
By the way, I'm going for the tinfoil pants...so they can't read my private thoughts.
:D

Offline scunny

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Re: Oil Pumps
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2008, 06:56:28 pm »
the 650 oil pump is trichoidal
past-cb100,ts250,cb500,cb500,gs1000,gs650g.phillips traveller
present-CB 650 retro
            VTR1000F3
           XL250S riverbed rocket
           TS250[sold]
           TS185[sold]
           XL125S[sold]
           MT50 (white)
           MT50 (red)[sold]
           KN250/XS400 project
           XR/XL250 bitsa under construction
           SL100[sold]
           XL250R
           pedal(pub bike) leaks oil
my gallery http://gallery.sohc4.net/members/personal/scunny

Offline mystic_1

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Re: Oil Pumps
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2008, 07:16:32 pm »
750 oil pumps are also trichoidal, with two sets of rotors, one for supply and one for scavenging.

Thats a great diagram btw scunny, where'd you get it?

mystic_1
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Oil Pumps
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2008, 07:21:45 pm »
Scunny:
That's a lot like the 750 primary side. Hmmm...does anyone have part numbers for the 650 pump innards?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline scunny

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Re: Oil Pumps
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2008, 07:25:35 pm »
it's not the 650 pump but virtually identicle
http://www.motorera.com/dictionary/pics/o/oilpump-rotor.jpg
I've had a look at a few parts fiches and non show the 650 pump in an exploded diagram
past-cb100,ts250,cb500,cb500,gs1000,gs650g.phillips traveller
present-CB 650 retro
            VTR1000F3
           XL250S riverbed rocket
           TS250[sold]
           TS185[sold]
           XL125S[sold]
           MT50 (white)
           MT50 (red)[sold]
           KN250/XS400 project
           XR/XL250 bitsa under construction
           SL100[sold]
           XL250R
           pedal(pub bike) leaks oil
my gallery http://gallery.sohc4.net/members/personal/scunny

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Oil Pumps
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2008, 07:59:37 pm »
it's not the 650 pump but virtually identicle
http://www.motorera.com/dictionary/pics/o/oilpump-rotor.jpg
I've had a look at a few parts fiches and non show the 650 pump in an exploded diagram

Rats...the 750 is in the same boat.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Soos

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Re: Oil Pumps
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2008, 10:17:28 pm »
Yep thats almost identical to the innards of the 650's pump there.

I could see a few rough casting edges being rounded for better flow, but i'm not sure what(if any) the increase would be if any really.

Can't hurt to at least clean up the casting marks on the passages though.
Air in a carb may have problems with a mirror finish, but with oil flow i'm betting it definately wouldn't hurt.

l8r
-=≡ Soos ≡=-
Just think to yourself what would Alowishus Devander Abercrombie do?
"Brix will be shat by your neighbors." - schwebel
(61mm)652cc 1979 cb650

Offline Hush

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Re: Oil Pumps
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2008, 12:44:28 am »
Ah the 650 guys find a common thread.
I don't have enough spares so I'll just watch but if it works I wanna know. ;D
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline Pinhead

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Re: Oil Pumps
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2008, 11:03:34 am »
Has anyone done any experimenting on this?
Doug

Click --> Cheap Regulator/Rectifier for any of Honda's 3-phase charging systems (all SOHC4's).

GM HEI Ignition Conversion

Quote from: TwoTired
By the way, I'm going for the tinfoil pants...so they can't read my private thoughts.
:D

Offline Sporkfly

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Re: Oil Pumps
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2008, 11:08:27 am »
Has anyone done any experimenting on this?
+1
1977 CB550K
1979 GL1000 - Current project, winter '09-'10
1979 CX500
1976 Suzuki GT500 Titan