Topic: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China

[lrutt]

We, people of the United States of America, need to put a stop to this.

The Vice Grip locking pliers were invented by a blacksmith in Dewitt Nebraska in 1915. They have been manufactured in that small town since then. In 2002 the company was bought out by some big corp and now they are moving production to China. That’s 300 jobs moving to friggin China. American jobs used to produce tools invented here in America. Now Dewitt Nebraska is a pretty small town. This will devastate that small town. This is not a matter of unions ruining production like they did in the Auto industry. Even if keeping production over here means an extra dollar in the cost, would that not be worth it. I don’t know about you but I’ve used other brands of locking pliers and they didn’t work worth a damn. Can you imagine what Vice Grips will be like coming from China? So let’s put our foot down and tell them enough is enough. I’d like to see everyone post this notice to all the bulletin boards you possibly can. I’d also like to see everyone click the link below and let the folks at Vice Grip know that we won’t stand for this and they should keep production here in the US, Dewitt Nebraska to be exact, where it belongs.

Here is a link to the story if you want to read more. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26531610/
   
This is our heritage, this was good old USA know-how inventing a simple device to do a simple job and we don’t have enough respect for that to keep it here in the US. I’ve had enough of these corporations just blindly sending our jobs overseas. We need to put a stop to this here and now. Please help.

http://www.irwin.com/irwin/consumer/jhtml/contactUs.jhtml

BTW, I’m not associated with Vice Grips or the company in any way. I’m just sick and tired of seeing our jobs go overseas.

[DRam]

Already sent them an email saying I had bought my last Vice Grip plier.  They'll ignore it, though.

[rhos1355]

Don't get angry but my advice is "Wake up and smell the coffee". We westerners have grown fat and lazy, we charge huge amounts of money to our employers (and I don't mean just salaries; pensions, insurance, maternity leave, health and safety etc etc), and want to work ever reduced hours per week. Did you know that in the EU it is ILLEGAL to work more than 48 hours per week? Even if you want to? We want holidays, we want rights, we want our backsides wiped. No wonder the jobs are going to China; they'll do the same for a bowl of rice  or a smack on the head. Who cares that the quality is not up to standard? They just replace quality with quantity. It's cheaper and therefore equals bigger profits.

[Raul CB750K1]

I see an open can of worms coming. This will end up like the "medical care" thread.


My point of view? No matter who invented what. If you can't do something better or cheaper than somebody else, you are out. Survival of the fittest. Why did the company owners sell the company in first place? Once somebody has bought the company, they don't have to have any sentimental attachments to it. They have the rights to produce a good-selling product, and they have a factory and employees in USA. If they can set the same factory at a cheaper country, what kind of additional value does the caucasian workers give the final product? It doesn't take a genius to assemble a vise-grip, and regardless of general consensus, good products can come out of chinese hands as long as the quality control is strict enough.

[DRam]

Don't get angry but my advice is "Wake up and smell the coffee". We westerners have grown fat and lazy, we charge huge amounts of money to our employers (and I don't mean just salaries; pensions, insurance, maternity leave, health and safety etc etc), and want to work ever reduced hours per week. Did you know that in the EU it is ILLEGAL to work more than 48 hours per week? Even if you want to? We want holidays, we want rights, we want our backsides wiped. No wonder the jobs are going to China; they'll do the same for a bowl of rice  or a smack on the head. Who cares that the quality is not up to standard? They just replace quality with quantity. It's cheaper and therefore equals bigger profits.

Wake up, smell the coffe and do what?  Ignore the fact that another 300 people don't have jobs?  Or try to find a way around the problem?  Here's a suggestion:  talk to the employees.  Explain the economic facts of life - our product is losing money because it's too expensive and we have to move to China to make a profit.  Right now we could make a profit on this product if everyone were to  take an   X% cut in pay.  And we mean everyone.  Labor, management, the CEO, everyone.  And then let the employees vote on it.  Their jobs are then up to them.

Of course the article about Vice Grip moving didn't say they were losing money, only that they needed to remain competative.  Which indicates to me there was a profit, it just wasn't big enough.

 

[dustyc]

Which indicates to me there was a profit, it just wasn't big enough.

That's what I figure too.  Probably not enough to let the executives keep 4 or 5 houses, building their investment portfolios and pay stock holders a good return on their investments. 

Raul, the Vice Grip brand has had a reputation for great quality, and now it will most likely suffer.  I've had other cheap locking pliers, but they have all ended up in the trash after they've bent or the teeth on the jaws have worn off, while I still have Vice Grip brand pliers that were my Grandfathers.  I've replaced the junk ones with Vice Grip brand and now have a set that will most likely last me my lifetime, so my only worry would be if I lost any that I'd have to buy junk. 

On the plus side, this could open the market for someone that cares to make quality.  I think it would be great if someone in that little community reopened the factory without the bloated executive salaries and increased all the workers' pay and offered a quality product.  They could probably offer it for less than the Chinese version without the executive bloat sucking away company money.

[eldar]

Well the fact is that the good ol' US of A HAS gotten fat and lazy. THAT is a result of a capitalist based society. Everyone wants to make their buck. Remember when almost ANY product you could get in the US would last your lifetime? I don't. Why? Cause too many were interested in making money instead of a good long lasting product. Why make a good product when you can put out junk that breaks in a few years and people have to buy more. Don't even blame it on walmart. It was happening before they came along. Target is just as guilty. WE are all just as guilty. We want to save money, as much as we can and there fore we buy the low cost junk.

It used to be that the low cost stuff was not junk. It was the tools we remember our great grandfathers using. The tools that still do as good as anything today. Americans have gotten lazy and compliant and we have gotten ourselves into this mess.

What I find really funny here is that many of you are old enough to remember fighting against japanese cars being imported. What happened? They brought the production here.

I bet there are a lot of you that hate dealing with foreign speaking customer service, say, at your bank. But I bet you still bank there cause you have for years. Well that does not help now does it. Maybe you can send the message that we do not foreign support by finding a bank that has everything all in the US.

Did you know that radio flyer, yes the company that makes the red wagons you all remember as a kid, they moved to china a few years ago. They will not move back because people still buy the wagon yet.

Our govt wants us right where we are. We are so divided on EVERYTHING that we will never be able to mount any kind of mass protest for ANYTHING. All because too many people are in for instant gratification.

Every single one of us is guilty of this and it will not change until we all have to tighten our belts and go with out all the luxuries.  Any of you see Wall-e? Yeah we in the US are heading that way and it is no political parties fault solely. It is ours for allowing it to happen.

A good way to start to fix this to get out and vote and make our voices heard. Get your friends out, even if they do not agree with you. Encourage everyone you know to vote, even at the local level. Every politician starts local practically.

Will i be popular for this post? Porbably not but that will be because people know deep down, I am right.

[chrislib]

Already sent them an email saying I had bought my last Vice Grip plier.  They'll ignore it, though.

+1!

[Aaron J Williams]

It's funny how nobody has mentioned that America's corporate income tax rate is twice as high as any other industrialized nation on the planet. It's also quite a knee slapper that we are fat and lazy because of capitalism. Fat lazy people don't want to make a buck, they want the government to take a buck from someone else and give it to them. Maybe we are fat and lazy because the government has for the last 50 years taught us that everything we could ever want was a "right" to be paid for by other taxpayers. The saddest part is that the only solution I'm hearing is for everyone EXCEPT the government to do with less and be forced to run their businesses however the government dictates.

[stay youth]

You are correct about America's corporate taxes being so high, but you fail to mention that due to tax breaks, subsidies and loopholes they pay much less. Accounting for this reduces Americas income tax rate closer to 15%. And due to loopholes corporations move a false headquarters offshore. The new offshore headquarters charges the corporations massive amounts of money for goods not delivered. In a sense US corporations can legally state they have lost money and pay no taxes. So the corporations do actually make the money and don't pay taxes.

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN1249465620080812?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews

We need a comprehensive tax reform that reduces corporate income taxes and abolishes corporate welfare. So next time you hear someone complain about illegal immigration remind them that they are bringing cheap labor allowing us to compete in a global market, while large corporations are perverting our country by not paying there fair share.


If you think that American manufacturing will stay here and compete in the global market you are fooling yourself. Everyone agrees its a shame when jobs go over seas. The greatest failure of the past 30 years has been our lack of properly training our citizens to compete in the global market. The lack of funding for education is going to be the death of this country. Unfortunately its the most educated people with the newest ideas that propel a economy. If our country is losing our edge in this area our economy will suffer as we can all see. Our country is still super great but our government needs to step up and realize that the economy of the past is dead. India was once considered the hub for overseas job displacement, and now even that country is beginning to feel the burn of the global economy. India is beginning to have its jobs shipped to overseas. As long as there is someone with equal education and desire to do a job for less, they will get that job. Simple path of least resistance.

Sorry for the rant.

Ride Motos!

[stay youth]

Here is a nice tool
http://www.leatherman.com/multi-tools/full-size-tools/crunch.aspx

I believe still made in the USA!

[eldar]

he saddest part is that the only solution I'm hearing is for everyone EXCEPT the government to do with less and be forced to run their businesses however the government dictates.

This because if AMERICANS get out and vote, the govt will get revamped by OUR votes and then do as WE want, NOT what they want.

The govt IS controlled by the people IF we make the effort. I guess maybe you do not make the effort?

[UnCrash]

My company is in the process of insourcing production instead of outsourcing...

[edbikerii]

Right on, AJW!!!

See also my posts about taxes on the "other" election-oriented thread http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=38974.msg414542#msg414542

It's funny how nobody has mentioned that America's corporate income tax rate is twice as high as any other industrialized nation on the planet. It's also quite a knee slapper that we are fat and lazy because of capitalism. Fat lazy people don't want to make a buck, they want the government to take a buck from someone else and give it to them. Maybe we are fat and lazy because the government has for the last 50 years taught us that everything we could ever want was a "right" to be paid for by other taxpayers. The saddest part is that the only solution I'm hearing is for everyone EXCEPT the government to do with less and be forced to run their businesses however the government dictates.

[edbikerii]

Yes, "stay youth", there are some abuses by large corporations.  However, small & medium businesses are the real backbone of our employment base in America.  Rarely are small or medium businesses sophisticated enough to create shell corporations, exploit loopholes, etc.  Small & medium businesses that show losses are actually losing money.

"Corporate Welfare" is a catchy phrase made up to try and detract from the truth about employment and business.  Fact is, helping out small and large businesses with tax cuts helps to stimulate the economy and keeps more Americans employed and well paid.  Businesses are made up of working people, most of whom are just trying to squeak by like everybody else.

You are correct about America's corporate taxes being so high, but you fail to mention that due to tax breaks, subsidies and loopholes they pay much less. Accounting for this reduces Americas income tax rate closer to 15%. And due to loopholes corporations move a false headquarters offshore. The new offshore headquarters charges the corporations massive amounts of money for goods not delivered. In a sense US corporations can legally state they have lost money and pay no taxes. So the corporations do actually make the money and don't pay taxes.

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN1249465620080812?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews

We need a comprehensive tax reform that reduces corporate income taxes and abolishes corporate welfare. So next time you hear someone complain about illegal immigration remind them that they are bringing cheap labor allowing us to compete in a global market, while large corporations are perverting our country by not paying there fair share.


If you think that American manufacturing will stay here and compete in the global market you are fooling yourself. Everyone agrees its a shame when jobs go over seas. The greatest failure of the past 30 years has been our lack of properly training our citizens to compete in the global market. The lack of funding for education is going to be the death of this country. Unfortunately its the most educated people with the newest ideas that propel a economy. If our country is losing our edge in this area our economy will suffer as we can all see. Our country is still super great but our government needs to step up and realize that the economy of the past is dead. India was once considered the hub for overseas job displacement, and now even that country is beginning to feel the burn of the global economy. India is beginning to have its jobs shipped to overseas. As long as there is someone with equal education and desire to do a job for less, they will get that job. Simple path of least resistance.

Sorry for the rant.

Ride Motos!

[BobbyR]

Yes, "stay youth", there are some abuses by large corporations.  However, small & medium businesses are the real backbone of our employment base in America.  Rarely are small or medium businesses sophisticated enough to create shell corporations, exploit loopholes, etc.  Small & medium businesses that show losses are actually losing money.

"Corporate Welfare" is a catchy phrase made up to try and detract from the truth about employment and business.  Fact is, helping out small and large businesses with tax cuts helps to stimulate the economy and keeps more Americans employed and well paid.  Businesses are made up of working people, most of whom are just trying to squeak by like everybody else.

You are correct about America's corporate taxes being so high, but you fail to mention that due to tax breaks, subsidies and loopholes they pay much less. Accounting for this reduces Americas income tax rate closer to 15%. And due to loopholes corporations move a false headquarters offshore. The new offshore headquarters charges the corporations massive amounts of money for goods not delivered. In a sense US corporations can legally state they have lost money and pay no taxes. So the corporations do actually make the money and don't pay taxes.

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN1249465620080812?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews

We need a comprehensive tax reform that reduces corporate income taxes and abolishes corporate welfare. So next time you hear someone complain about illegal immigration remind them that they are bringing cheap labor allowing us to compete in a global market, while large corporations are perverting our country by not paying there fair share.


If you think that American manufacturing will stay here and compete in the global market you are fooling yourself. Everyone agrees its a shame when jobs go over seas. The greatest failure of the past 30 years has been our lack of properly training our citizens to compete in the global market. The lack of funding for education is going to be the death of this country. Unfortunately its the most educated people with the newest ideas that propel a economy. If our country is losing our edge in this area our economy will suffer as we can all see. Our country is still super great but our government needs to step up and realize that the economy of the past is dead. India was once considered the hub for overseas job displacement, and now even that country is beginning to feel the burn of the global economy. India is beginning to have its jobs shipped to overseas. As long as there is someone with equal education and desire to do a job for less, they will get that job. Simple path of least resistance.

Sorry for the rant.

Ride Motos!

Ed, I will agree with you with this proviso. They get tax breaks for creating jobs in the US and make infastructure investments. You want to offshore jobs, you pay additional taxes. In effect, you are rewarded for creating jobs. The Government get's additional revenue from those workers income taxes. Sound protectionist, you f##kin A right it is.

[dustyc]

Bobby for President. 

[Shenanigans]

My grandfather once told me "Sorry for the way we left the country for you".  

I think a huge part of it is the people that would rather not spend the time making changes and/or having to sacrifice "their" things to get sh!t taken care of. The effort to take care of these things has to come from someone and no one seems to want to do it.

[edbikerii]

OK, fair enough.  My big concern with protectionism is that companies whose sales are protected artificially don't need to improve their products to make sales, so they always lose out in the long run through lack of innovation.  It takes a long time to catch up once that edge is lost, if they ever can.  Just look at the damage done to our auto and motorcycle industries after the protections of the seventies and eightys.

I think something else will improve things:  Chinese and Indian employees are getting a taste of money.  They are already more expensive than they were a few short years ago.  Soon enough, they'll be producing goods of the same quality as the US, if not better, and they will demand salaries on par with American salaries.  That will sure change the whole balance of "cheap labor manufacturing" economics.

Ed, I will agree with you with this proviso. They get tax breaks for creating jobs in the US and make infastructure investments. You want to offshore jobs, you pay additional taxes. In effect, you are rewarded for creating jobs. The Government get's additional revenue from those workers income taxes. Sound protectionist, you f##kin A right it is.

[Aaron J Williams]

The govt IS controlled by the people IF we make the effort. I guess maybe you do not make the effort?

I voted for the first time in 1984 at 18 years of age and every 2 years thereafter. I have also been an election judge and a convention delegate alternate. I have studied the Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, The Federalist Papers, and the history of the founding of America as quoted by those who founded it. I keep up with current political events and news daily as well as offer my opinions on forums and local discussions. I get e-mail updates on all current legislation and regularly write to my representatives Herb Kohl, Russ Feingold, and David Obey, all liberal Democrats who I disagree with most of the time. The only way I could put forth more effort would be to run for office myself.

I completely agree that if we took our collective heads out of our rear ends we could turn this country around. Unfortunately, we are too busy playing rich vs poor, black vs white, man vs woman, gay vs straight, liberal vs conservative, etc.. which is exactly how the political elite want it. As long as we allow them to divide us into groups which fight against each other they will stay in power.
 

The lack of funding for education is going to be the death of this country.

Sorry, studies show that there is no correlation between more education spending and higher education quality. It is the lack of quality in our education that has been our undoing, and it has been lack of competition that has ruined the quality. An un-educated vote is far worse than no vote at all and most Americans have little or no civics or economics education and no desire to learn.

The Founders never wanted an income tax and spoke specifically against the idea. The Constitution had to be amended to allow it! They wanted the government to raise revenue by import tariffs. There was a time when our national treasury was gladly filled by foreigners paying for the opportunity to do business on American soil. Our bloated government and twisted tax code are driving jobs overseas no matter what the See BS Nightly News tells you. You want the jobs to stay here? Get educated, get involved, and quit electing people who believe in a "living Constitution". We need to take some initiative and quit expecting the government to take care of us. Rugged individualism, tenacity, innovation and free markets made this country the greatest power on Earth. Big government enslaved and ruined it.

[74cb750]

interesing, wish i could tpye like a normal person, them i'd reply 
peace,
michel

[gregimotis]

We could show 'em all and go buy American bikes.... oh wait.

[stay youth]

Aaron,

You make a good point, one which I failed to think of. The reason I say education funding will be our undoing is from experiencing it first hand. I'm a college student and recently had to get a student loan as my work hours have been reduced. Classes have been drastically cut and class size have been greatly increased. This is a direct result of reduced funding from our legislature (California) Again I'm not saying your point is wrong merely attempting to play the devils advocate.

Either if its lack of funding or poor quality America is losing

PS If you happen to remember where you saw the statistics I would greatly appreciate it. Again I'm not trying to be snarky juts trying to get my information from as many sources as possible

Thanks!

[Aaron J Williams]

I know I read the report here but I can't remember the name of it. It is there somewhere, as is every statistic you would ever want to know about education.
http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/Subindx.asp
Here is a good source of information and opinion on the current state of education and possible ways to fix it.
http://www.reformk12.com/
Here's an intro page to get you started.
http://www.reformk12.com/archives/000026.nclk
You might also want to read The Conspiracy of Ignorance, I found it quite informative.
http://www.amazon.com/Conspiracy-Ignorance-Failure-American-Schools/dp/0060932600/ref=si3_rdr_bb_product

[donny]

(They) aren't doing anything to us.
We are doing this to ourselves.
 
Women buying stuff (cheep) from China don't care. Men buying tools (cheep) made in China, don't care.

Then they whine when a family member is laid off, and want someone (Gov.) to do something.