Author Topic: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China  (Read 4585 times)

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Offline lrutt

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Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« on: September 05, 2008, 07:21:55 AM »
We, people of the United States of America, need to put a stop to this.

The Vice Grip locking pliers were invented by a blacksmith in Dewitt Nebraska in 1915. They have been manufactured in that small town since then. In 2002 the company was bought out by some big corp and now they are moving production to China. That’s 300 jobs moving to friggin China. American jobs used to produce tools invented here in America. Now Dewitt Nebraska is a pretty small town. This will devastate that small town. This is not a matter of unions ruining production like they did in the Auto industry. Even if keeping production over here means an extra dollar in the cost, would that not be worth it. I don’t know about you but I’ve used other brands of locking pliers and they didn’t work worth a damn. Can you imagine what Vice Grips will be like coming from China? So let’s put our foot down and tell them enough is enough. I’d like to see everyone post this notice to all the bulletin boards you possibly can. I’d also like to see everyone click the link below and let the folks at Vice Grip know that we won’t stand for this and they should keep production here in the US, Dewitt Nebraska to be exact, where it belongs.

Here is a link to the story if you want to read more. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26531610/
   
This is our heritage, this was good old USA know-how inventing a simple device to do a simple job and we don’t have enough respect for that to keep it here in the US. I’ve had enough of these corporations just blindly sending our jobs overseas. We need to put a stop to this here and now. Please help.

http://www.irwin.com/irwin/consumer/jhtml/contactUs.jhtml

BTW, I’m not associated with Vice Grips or the company in any way. I’m just sick and tired of seeing our jobs go overseas.
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Offline DRam

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2008, 07:43:07 AM »
Already sent them an email saying I had bought my last Vice Grip plier.  They'll ignore it, though.

rhos1355

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2008, 08:18:30 AM »
Don't get angry but my advice is "Wake up and smell the coffee". We westerners have grown fat and lazy, we charge huge amounts of money to our employers (and I don't mean just salaries; pensions, insurance, maternity leave, health and safety etc etc), and want to work ever reduced hours per week. Did you know that in the EU it is ILLEGAL to work more than 48 hours per week? Even if you want to? We want holidays, we want rights, we want our backsides wiped. No wonder the jobs are going to China; they'll do the same for a bowl of rice  or a smack on the head. Who cares that the quality is not up to standard? They just replace quality with quantity. It's cheaper and therefore equals bigger profits.

Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2008, 12:14:09 PM »
I see an open can of worms coming. This will end up like the "medical care" thread.


My point of view? No matter who invented what. If you can't do something better or cheaper than somebody else, you are out. Survival of the fittest. Why did the company owners sell the company in first place? Once somebody has bought the company, they don't have to have any sentimental attachments to it. They have the rights to produce a good-selling product, and they have a factory and employees in USA. If they can set the same factory at a cheaper country, what kind of additional value does the caucasian workers give the final product? It doesn't take a genius to assemble a vise-grip, and regardless of general consensus, good products can come out of chinese hands as long as the quality control is strict enough.

Offline DRam

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2008, 12:33:43 PM »
Don't get angry but my advice is "Wake up and smell the coffee". We westerners have grown fat and lazy, we charge huge amounts of money to our employers (and I don't mean just salaries; pensions, insurance, maternity leave, health and safety etc etc), and want to work ever reduced hours per week. Did you know that in the EU it is ILLEGAL to work more than 48 hours per week? Even if you want to? We want holidays, we want rights, we want our backsides wiped. No wonder the jobs are going to China; they'll do the same for a bowl of rice  or a smack on the head. Who cares that the quality is not up to standard? They just replace quality with quantity. It's cheaper and therefore equals bigger profits.

Wake up, smell the coffe and do what?  Ignore the fact that another 300 people don't have jobs?  Or try to find a way around the problem?  Here's a suggestion:  talk to the employees.  Explain the economic facts of life - our product is losing money because it's too expensive and we have to move to China to make a profit.  Right now we could make a profit on this product if everyone were to  take an   X% cut in pay.  And we mean everyone.  Labor, management, the CEO, everyone.  And then let the employees vote on it.  Their jobs are then up to them.

Of course the article about Vice Grip moving didn't say they were losing money, only that they needed to remain competative.  Which indicates to me there was a profit, it just wasn't big enough.

 

Offline dustyc

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2008, 01:14:33 PM »
Which indicates to me there was a profit, it just wasn't big enough.

That's what I figure too.  Probably not enough to let the executives keep 4 or 5 houses, building their investment portfolios and pay stock holders a good return on their investments. 

Raul, the Vice Grip brand has had a reputation for great quality, and now it will most likely suffer.  I've had other cheap locking pliers, but they have all ended up in the trash after they've bent or the teeth on the jaws have worn off, while I still have Vice Grip brand pliers that were my Grandfathers.  I've replaced the junk ones with Vice Grip brand and now have a set that will most likely last me my lifetime, so my only worry would be if I lost any that I'd have to buy junk. 

On the plus side, this could open the market for someone that cares to make quality.  I think it would be great if someone in that little community reopened the factory without the bloated executive salaries and increased all the workers' pay and offered a quality product.  They could probably offer it for less than the Chinese version without the executive bloat sucking away company money.
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eldar

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2008, 01:55:18 PM »
Well the fact is that the good ol' US of A HAS gotten fat and lazy. THAT is a result of a capitalist based society. Everyone wants to make their buck. Remember when almost ANY product you could get in the US would last your lifetime? I don't. Why? Cause too many were interested in making money instead of a good long lasting product. Why make a good product when you can put out junk that breaks in a few years and people have to buy more. Don't even blame it on walmart. It was happening before they came along. Target is just as guilty. WE are all just as guilty. We want to save money, as much as we can and there fore we buy the low cost junk.

It used to be that the low cost stuff was not junk. It was the tools we remember our great grandfathers using. The tools that still do as good as anything today. Americans have gotten lazy and compliant and we have gotten ourselves into this mess.

What I find really funny here is that many of you are old enough to remember fighting against japanese cars being imported. What happened? They brought the production here.

I bet there are a lot of you that hate dealing with foreign speaking customer service, say, at your bank. But I bet you still bank there cause you have for years. Well that does not help now does it. Maybe you can send the message that we do not foreign support by finding a bank that has everything all in the US.

Did you know that radio flyer, yes the company that makes the red wagons you all remember as a kid, they moved to china a few years ago. They will not move back because people still buy the wagon yet.

Our govt wants us right where we are. We are so divided on EVERYTHING that we will never be able to mount any kind of mass protest for ANYTHING. All because too many people are in for instant gratification.

Every single one of us is guilty of this and it will not change until we all have to tighten our belts and go with out all the luxuries.  Any of you see Wall-e? Yeah we in the US are heading that way and it is no political parties fault solely. It is ours for allowing it to happen.

A good way to start to fix this to get out and vote and make our voices heard. Get your friends out, even if they do not agree with you. Encourage everyone you know to vote, even at the local level. Every politician starts local practically.

Will i be popular for this post? Porbably not but that will be because people know deep down, I am right.

Offline chrislib

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2008, 03:46:29 PM »
Already sent them an email saying I had bought my last Vice Grip plier.  They'll ignore it, though.
+1!
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Offline Aaron J Williams

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2008, 04:28:51 PM »
It's funny how nobody has mentioned that America's corporate income tax rate is twice as high as any other industrialized nation on the planet. It's also quite a knee slapper that we are fat and lazy because of capitalism. Fat lazy people don't want to make a buck, they want the government to take a buck from someone else and give it to them. Maybe we are fat and lazy because the government has for the last 50 years taught us that everything we could ever want was a "right" to be paid for by other taxpayers. The saddest part is that the only solution I'm hearing is for everyone EXCEPT the government to do with less and be forced to run their businesses however the government dictates.
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Offline stay youth

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2008, 05:13:23 PM »
You are correct about America's corporate taxes being so high, but you fail to mention that due to tax breaks, subsidies and loopholes they pay much less. Accounting for this reduces Americas income tax rate closer to 15%. And due to loopholes corporations move a false headquarters offshore. The new offshore headquarters charges the corporations massive amounts of money for goods not delivered. In a sense US corporations can legally state they have lost money and pay no taxes. So the corporations do actually make the money and don't pay taxes.

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN1249465620080812?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews

We need a comprehensive tax reform that reduces corporate income taxes and abolishes corporate welfare. So next time you hear someone complain about illegal immigration remind them that they are bringing cheap labor allowing us to compete in a global market, while large corporations are perverting our country by not paying there fair share.


If you think that American manufacturing will stay here and compete in the global market you are fooling yourself. Everyone agrees its a shame when jobs go over seas. The greatest failure of the past 30 years has been our lack of properly training our citizens to compete in the global market. The lack of funding for education is going to be the death of this country. Unfortunately its the most educated people with the newest ideas that propel a economy. If our country is losing our edge in this area our economy will suffer as we can all see. Our country is still super great but our government needs to step up and realize that the economy of the past is dead. India was once considered the hub for overseas job displacement, and now even that country is beginning to feel the burn of the global economy. India is beginning to have its jobs shipped to overseas. As long as there is someone with equal education and desire to do a job for less, they will get that job. Simple path of least resistance.

Sorry for the rant.

Ride Motos!
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 05:23:33 PM by stay youth »
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Offline stay youth

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2008, 05:37:28 PM »
Here is a nice tool
http://www.leatherman.com/multi-tools/full-size-tools/crunch.aspx

I believe still made in the USA!
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eldar

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2008, 07:01:10 PM »
Quote
he saddest part is that the only solution I'm hearing is for everyone EXCEPT the government to do with less and be forced to run their businesses however the government dictates.

This because if AMERICANS get out and vote, the govt will get revamped by OUR votes and then do as WE want, NOT what they want.

The govt IS controlled by the people IF we make the effort. I guess maybe you do not make the effort?

Offline UnCrash

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2008, 07:29:19 PM »
My company is in the process of insourcing production instead of outsourcing...
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2008, 07:33:09 PM »
Right on, AJW!!!

See also my posts about taxes on the "other" election-oriented thread http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=38974.msg414542#msg414542

It's funny how nobody has mentioned that America's corporate income tax rate is twice as high as any other industrialized nation on the planet. It's also quite a knee slapper that we are fat and lazy because of capitalism. Fat lazy people don't want to make a buck, they want the government to take a buck from someone else and give it to them. Maybe we are fat and lazy because the government has for the last 50 years taught us that everything we could ever want was a "right" to be paid for by other taxpayers. The saddest part is that the only solution I'm hearing is for everyone EXCEPT the government to do with less and be forced to run their businesses however the government dictates.
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2008, 07:43:34 PM »
Yes, "stay youth", there are some abuses by large corporations.  However, small & medium businesses are the real backbone of our employment base in America.  Rarely are small or medium businesses sophisticated enough to create shell corporations, exploit loopholes, etc.  Small & medium businesses that show losses are actually losing money.

"Corporate Welfare" is a catchy phrase made up to try and detract from the truth about employment and business.  Fact is, helping out small and large businesses with tax cuts helps to stimulate the economy and keeps more Americans employed and well paid.  Businesses are made up of working people, most of whom are just trying to squeak by like everybody else.

You are correct about America's corporate taxes being so high, but you fail to mention that due to tax breaks, subsidies and loopholes they pay much less. Accounting for this reduces Americas income tax rate closer to 15%. And due to loopholes corporations move a false headquarters offshore. The new offshore headquarters charges the corporations massive amounts of money for goods not delivered. In a sense US corporations can legally state they have lost money and pay no taxes. So the corporations do actually make the money and don't pay taxes.

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN1249465620080812?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews

We need a comprehensive tax reform that reduces corporate income taxes and abolishes corporate welfare. So next time you hear someone complain about illegal immigration remind them that they are bringing cheap labor allowing us to compete in a global market, while large corporations are perverting our country by not paying there fair share.


If you think that American manufacturing will stay here and compete in the global market you are fooling yourself. Everyone agrees its a shame when jobs go over seas. The greatest failure of the past 30 years has been our lack of properly training our citizens to compete in the global market. The lack of funding for education is going to be the death of this country. Unfortunately its the most educated people with the newest ideas that propel a economy. If our country is losing our edge in this area our economy will suffer as we can all see. Our country is still super great but our government needs to step up and realize that the economy of the past is dead. India was once considered the hub for overseas job displacement, and now even that country is beginning to feel the burn of the global economy. India is beginning to have its jobs shipped to overseas. As long as there is someone with equal education and desire to do a job for less, they will get that job. Simple path of least resistance.

Sorry for the rant.

Ride Motos!
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2008, 08:17:03 PM »
Yes, "stay youth", there are some abuses by large corporations.  However, small & medium businesses are the real backbone of our employment base in America.  Rarely are small or medium businesses sophisticated enough to create shell corporations, exploit loopholes, etc.  Small & medium businesses that show losses are actually losing money.

"Corporate Welfare" is a catchy phrase made up to try and detract from the truth about employment and business.  Fact is, helping out small and large businesses with tax cuts helps to stimulate the economy and keeps more Americans employed and well paid.  Businesses are made up of working people, most of whom are just trying to squeak by like everybody else.

You are correct about America's corporate taxes being so high, but you fail to mention that due to tax breaks, subsidies and loopholes they pay much less. Accounting for this reduces Americas income tax rate closer to 15%. And due to loopholes corporations move a false headquarters offshore. The new offshore headquarters charges the corporations massive amounts of money for goods not delivered. In a sense US corporations can legally state they have lost money and pay no taxes. So the corporations do actually make the money and don't pay taxes.

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN1249465620080812?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews

We need a comprehensive tax reform that reduces corporate income taxes and abolishes corporate welfare. So next time you hear someone complain about illegal immigration remind them that they are bringing cheap labor allowing us to compete in a global market, while large corporations are perverting our country by not paying there fair share.


If you think that American manufacturing will stay here and compete in the global market you are fooling yourself. Everyone agrees its a shame when jobs go over seas. The greatest failure of the past 30 years has been our lack of properly training our citizens to compete in the global market. The lack of funding for education is going to be the death of this country. Unfortunately its the most educated people with the newest ideas that propel a economy. If our country is losing our edge in this area our economy will suffer as we can all see. Our country is still super great but our government needs to step up and realize that the economy of the past is dead. India was once considered the hub for overseas job displacement, and now even that country is beginning to feel the burn of the global economy. India is beginning to have its jobs shipped to overseas. As long as there is someone with equal education and desire to do a job for less, they will get that job. Simple path of least resistance.

Sorry for the rant.

Ride Motos!
Ed, I will agree with you with this proviso. They get tax breaks for creating jobs in the US and make infastructure investments. You want to offshore jobs, you pay additional taxes. In effect, you are rewarded for creating jobs. The Government get's additional revenue from those workers income taxes. Sound protectionist, you f##kin A right it is.
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Offline dustyc

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2008, 08:22:44 PM »
Bobby for President. 
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Offline Shenanigans

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2008, 08:23:45 PM »
My grandfather once told me "Sorry for the way we left the country for you".  :D

I think a huge part of it is the people that would rather not spend the time making changes and/or having to sacrifice "their" things to get sh!t taken care of. The effort to take care of these things has to come from someone and no one seems to want to do it.
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2008, 10:06:10 PM »
OK, fair enough.  My big concern with protectionism is that companies whose sales are protected artificially don't need to improve their products to make sales, so they always lose out in the long run through lack of innovation.  It takes a long time to catch up once that edge is lost, if they ever can.  Just look at the damage done to our auto and motorcycle industries after the protections of the seventies and eightys.

I think something else will improve things:  Chinese and Indian employees are getting a taste of money.  They are already more expensive than they were a few short years ago.  Soon enough, they'll be producing goods of the same quality as the US, if not better, and they will demand salaries on par with American salaries.  That will sure change the whole balance of "cheap labor manufacturing" economics.

Ed, I will agree with you with this proviso. They get tax breaks for creating jobs in the US and make infastructure investments. You want to offshore jobs, you pay additional taxes. In effect, you are rewarded for creating jobs. The Government get's additional revenue from those workers income taxes. Sound protectionist, you f##kin A right it is.

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Offline Aaron J Williams

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2008, 10:52:21 PM »
Quote
The govt IS controlled by the people IF we make the effort. I guess maybe you do not make the effort?
I voted for the first time in 1984 at 18 years of age and every 2 years thereafter. I have also been an election judge and a convention delegate alternate. I have studied the Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, The Federalist Papers, and the history of the founding of America as quoted by those who founded it. I keep up with current political events and news daily as well as offer my opinions on forums and local discussions. I get e-mail updates on all current legislation and regularly write to my representatives Herb Kohl, Russ Feingold, and David Obey, all liberal Democrats who I disagree with most of the time. The only way I could put forth more effort would be to run for office myself.

I completely agree that if we took our collective heads out of our rear ends we could turn this country around. Unfortunately, we are too busy playing rich vs poor, black vs white, man vs woman, gay vs straight, liberal vs conservative, etc.. which is exactly how the political elite want it. As long as we allow them to divide us into groups which fight against each other they will stay in power.
 
Quote from: stay youth
The lack of funding for education is going to be the death of this country.
Sorry, studies show that there is no correlation between more education spending and higher education quality. It is the lack of quality in our education that has been our undoing, and it has been lack of competition that has ruined the quality. An un-educated vote is far worse than no vote at all and most Americans have little or no civics or economics education and no desire to learn.

The Founders never wanted an income tax and spoke specifically against the idea. The Constitution had to be amended to allow it! They wanted the government to raise revenue by import tariffs. There was a time when our national treasury was gladly filled by foreigners paying for the opportunity to do business on American soil. Our bloated government and twisted tax code are driving jobs overseas no matter what the See BS Nightly News tells you. You want the jobs to stay here? Get educated, get involved, and quit electing people who believe in a "living Constitution". We need to take some initiative and quit expecting the government to take care of us. Rugged individualism, tenacity, innovation and free markets made this country the greatest power on Earth. Big government enslaved and ruined it.

There are old bikers and there are bold bikers but there are very few old, bold bikers.

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Offline 74cb750

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2008, 02:16:26 AM »
interesing, wish i could tpye like a normal person, them i'd reply  ???
peace,
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Offline gregimotis

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2008, 09:49:54 AM »
We could show 'em all and go buy American bikes.... oh wait.
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Offline stay youth

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2008, 10:35:07 AM »
Aaron,

You make a good point, one which I failed to think of. The reason I say education funding will be our undoing is from experiencing it first hand. I'm a college student and recently had to get a student loan as my work hours have been reduced. Classes have been drastically cut and class size have been greatly increased. This is a direct result of reduced funding from our legislature (California) Again I'm not saying your point is wrong merely attempting to play the devils advocate.

Either if its lack of funding or poor quality America is losing

PS If you happen to remember where you saw the statistics I would greatly appreciate it. Again I'm not trying to be snarky juts trying to get my information from as many sources as possible

Thanks!
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Offline Aaron J Williams

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2008, 12:39:34 PM »
I know I read the report here but I can't remember the name of it. It is there somewhere, as is every statistic you would ever want to know about education.
http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/Subindx.asp
Here is a good source of information and opinion on the current state of education and possible ways to fix it.
http://www.reformk12.com/
Here's an intro page to get you started.
http://www.reformk12.com/archives/000026.nclk
You might also want to read The Conspiracy of Ignorance, I found it quite informative.
http://www.amazon.com/Conspiracy-Ignorance-Failure-American-Schools/dp/0060932600/ref=si3_rdr_bb_product
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 08:35:26 AM by Aaron J Williams »
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Offline donny

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2008, 07:57:51 AM »
(They) aren't doing anything to us.
We are doing this to ourselves.
 
Women buying stuff (cheep) from China don't care. Men buying tools (cheep) made in China, don't care.

Then they whine when a family member is laid off, and want someone (Gov.) to do something.
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Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2008, 01:20:34 PM »
(They) aren't doing anything to us.
We are doing this to ourselves.
 
Women buying stuff (cheep) from China don't care. Men buying tools (cheep) made in China, don't care.

Then they whine when a family member is laid off, and want someone (Gov.) to do something.


Well, they do care. They care for their economy. By buying cheap you get an instant reward -money saved- in place of a future, uncertain common good -jobs kept-. It is a logical decision.

It is a logical decision to move the factories to cheaper countries. Don't forget that Vise-grips, even if it was an american company in origin, is now a worldwide company. They sell everywhere. If it is incorporated, its owners can be anywhere, not only in America. They may very well have a bigger sale figure outside US than in their home country. So if their target is the world outside US, what kind of added value give their tools the fact that the people who assemble them are living in the US?


I don't think protectionism is good. It only helps to keep unprofitable industries up. It is much better a "conversion" policy, convert uncompetitive industries into competitive ones, and help people to recycle and learn a new trade.


I think it was Stalin who said "one single death is a tragedy, one million death, an statistic". If an industry is not competitive, the common interest say it must be shut down and converted into a competitive one. To make an omelette, you have to break some eggs. This thinking doesn't help the man who goes to the employment office, but history has shown that trying to keep an uncompetitive industry only prolongs the agony. Ask the motor industry in Spain or the steel industry in Sheffield. And to those who put the blame in incompetent managers, not even when the workers has formed a cooperative, has the company survived in most of the cases. With big demand, even with incompetent manager does a company do well. When the demand plummets, it really takes a genius as a manager to save the company, and even then, it is always painful -layoffs-.



Offline BobbyR

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2008, 05:23:55 PM »
Unfortunately you are correct Raul. There is a need for manufacturing jobs here in the US. Not everyone has the ability to become a Lawyer, Doctor, Engineer, Programmer or other professional. I am not sure how you do it, but we need to find places this population can earn a living above the minimum wage. If we don't you create a growing permanent underclass, and you get real problems then.
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But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline DammitDan

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2008, 01:07:22 AM »
And to those who put the blame in incompetent managers, not even when the workers has formed a cooperative, has the company survived in most of the cases.

Anyone ever heard of a little motorcycle company called Triumph?

Something like this happened to them, too...  ;)
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rhos1355

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2008, 01:36:06 AM »
Unfortunately you are correct Raul. There is a need for manufacturing jobs here in the US. Not everyone has the ability to become a Lawyer, Doctor, Engineer, Programmer or other professional. I am not sure how you do it, but we need to find places this population can earn a living above the minimum wage. If we don't you create a growing permanent underclass, and you get real problems then.

Unfortunately, Bobby, the media and the instant gratification brigade expound on the all-encompassing virtue of going to college or university. The mantra amongst parents now is: You gotta go to college, You gotta go to college. They seem to think that a college education is the gateway to success for their kids even when, sometimes, these kids just aren't suitable for higher learning. What is happening here is that kids sign up for  these "Mickey Mouse" degree courses with hardly any prospect of secure employment at the end.
This is to the detriment to a lot of manual but skillful occupations. We still need electricians, plumbers, builders, mechanics, workshop engineers, cabinet makers, carpenters.

Offline Buber

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2008, 02:31:39 AM »
We westerners have grown fat and lazy, we charge huge amounts of money to our employers (and I don't mean just salaries; pensions, insurance, maternity leave, health and safety etc etc), and want to work ever reduced hours per week. Did you know that in the EU it is ILLEGAL to work more than 48 hours per week? Even if you want to? We want holidays, we want rights, we want our backsides wiped. No wonder the jobs are going to China; they'll do the same for a bowl of rice  or a smack on the head. Who cares that the quality is not up to standard? They just replace quality with quantity. It's cheaper and therefore equals bigger profits.
Well the fact is that the good ol' US of A HAS gotten fat and lazy. THAT is a result of a capitalist based society.
It's also quite a knee slapper that we are fat and lazy because of capitalism. Fat lazy people don't want to make a buck, they want the government to take a buck from someone else and give it to them. Maybe we are fat and lazy because the government has for the last 50 years taught us that everything we could ever want was a "right" to be paid for by other taxpayers. The saddest part is that the only solution I'm hearing is for everyone EXCEPT the government to do with less and be forced to run their businesses however the government dictates.
You know, this is kinda funny. You mean, the recipe is to become "mean and lean, and non-capitalist"? Well, lots of people of North Korea and Cuba are lean and hard-working, but I doubt You would like to employ such system of governing. And sorry, but thinking along the way of "we must protect our industry, jobs, whatever, because they are ours" even if they are not economical leads to socialism and then communism. And those ideas are compromised - and it's not my fancy, it's a historical fact. And, after all, it was good, 'ole US of A that practically invented and introduced the globalization. Well, there you go, those are the consequences.
My opinion is that you are wrong by saying "let's do something so THEY (i.e. government) keep our factories ours". The only thing THEY can do is to subsidize it, which is simply stealing from other taxpayers to promote the ones who cannot supply a competitive product. This is a pure bred communism, not capitalism.
BUT, as somebody rightly said, you can ask employees, would they agree to work for less (money, privileges, etc) to keep their work. Some maybe would say yes, but others would simply move to find another job. And (by a big shortcut) this is how US of A got populated. By influx of people looking for better salary for their work.
So, it will come a time when poeple in China will get enough money to move the production to... my bet goes to Africa (because by that time Indonesia, Malaysia, and other indo-asiatic countries will be rich). We'll see....
BTW. now is too late to protest. We all are buying Chinese production. There was a movie about California, that people had woken up, and all Mexicans were gone. California collapsed in that movie. Of course it was a comedy, but interesting take nevertheless.

And I have rally fresh experiences. In 90's Poland was a cheap country to locate production. Barely 15yrs later it isn't.  But I can tell you that this is simply stimulating, and good for society - methinks...

Good luck in keeping your jobs in USA! On 1.Sept my employer just opened new plant in China.. it's a fact...  ;D
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Offline Demon67

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2008, 04:52:16 AM »
Right on Buber! You would have a better handle on the aftermath of communism and state control than most of the north americans.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2008, 04:54:18 PM »
We westerners have grown fat and lazy, we charge huge amounts of money to our employers (and I don't mean just salaries; pensions, insurance, maternity leave, health and safety etc etc), and want to work ever reduced hours per week. Did you know that in the EU it is ILLEGAL to work more than 48 hours per week? Even if you want to? We want holidays, we want rights, we want our backsides wiped. No wonder the jobs are going to China; they'll do the same for a bowl of rice  or a smack on the head. Who cares that the quality is not up to standard? They just replace quality with quantity. It's cheaper and therefore equals bigger profits.
Well the fact is that the good ol' US of A HAS gotten fat and lazy. THAT is a result of a capitalist based society.
It's also quite a knee slapper that we are fat and lazy because of capitalism. Fat lazy people don't want to make a buck, they want the government to take a buck from someone else and give it to them. Maybe we are fat and lazy because the government has for the last 50 years taught us that everything we could ever want was a "right" to be paid for by other taxpayers. The saddest part is that the only solution I'm hearing is for everyone EXCEPT the government to do with less and be forced to run their businesses however the government dictates.
You know, this is kinda funny. You mean, the recipe is to become "mean and lean, and non-capitalist"? Well, lots of people of North Korea and Cuba are lean and hard-working, but I doubt You would like to employ such system of governing. And sorry, but thinking along the way of "we must protect our industry, jobs, whatever, because they are ours" even if they are not economical leads to socialism and then communism. And those ideas are compromised - and it's not my fancy, it's a historical fact. And, after all, it was good, 'ole US of A that practically invented and introduced the globalization. Well, there you go, those are the consequences.
My opinion is that you are wrong by saying "let's do something so THEY (i.e. government) keep our factories ours". The only thing THEY can do is to subsidize it, which is simply stealing from other taxpayers to promote the ones who cannot supply a competitive product. This is a pure bred communism, not capitalism.
BUT, as somebody rightly said, you can ask employees, would they agree to work for less (money, privileges, etc) to keep their work. Some maybe would say yes, but others would simply move to find another job. And (by a big shortcut) this is how US of A got populated. By influx of people looking for better salary for their work.
So, it will come a time when poeple in China will get enough money to move the production to... my bet goes to Africa (because by that time Indonesia, Malaysia, and other indo-asiatic countries will be rich). We'll see....
BTW. now is too late to protest. We all are buying Chinese production. There was a movie about California, that people had woken up, and all Mexicans were gone. California collapsed in that movie. Of course it was a comedy, but interesting take nevertheless.

And I have rally fresh experiences. In 90's Poland was a cheap country to locate production. Barely 15yrs later it isn't.  But I can tell you that this is simply stimulating, and good for society - methinks...

Good luck in keeping your jobs in USA! On 1.Sept my employer just opened new plant in China.. it's a fact...  ;D
I think you misunderstood what I said. The US taxes Corporations and allows them certain deductions, some of which are questionable. I proposed adjusting the tax codes to make it attractive to invest in the US and less attractive to off shore jobs.
The US has subsidized Farmers in the US for decades to support our Agriculture and at this time we could be self sufficient since we have multiple climates and productive Farms.
The US never had a National Airline, they chose instead to regulate the Airlines which assured each one a profit and had strict rules about being on time and customer service. Now, it is a mess and service sucks.
We had strict lending guidelines for Banks to avoid the Mortgage mess we have today.
The old timers knew that some Government regulation was necessary to aviod chaos in certain sectors of the economy. They wanted free enterprise, but realized pure Capitalism was not workable.
In Poland you had collectivism and the truth be told totalitarianism. I know this as my Wife's parents are from Poland and relatives continue to come over. Things are far better their than they were under the Russians. Hang on the Russians want to rebuild their Empire. Poland was always their strongest producer of food and manufacturing.    
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline Buber

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2008, 11:14:26 PM »
Yes, you are right, I mean total free-for-all produces problems a'la Argentina. BUT we will not run away from the factories being moved to China, we like it or not, because at the end, the consumer wants cheaper goods.

And don't worry about Poland. I'm hearing that we are your best friend in Europe and you will come in a flash to save us from any aggressors - at least this is what our politicians say when they want to promote your Rocket Shield base to be build in Poland  ;D ;D

After all, after Poland being the longest European support for you in Iraq (not counting UK) now the Czechs can visit USA without visas, but we need to apply for them still.  :D  :D  I know, this is called irony...

Anyway, this is off topic and i don't mean that. China is here to stay, even if we (at least I don't) don't like some of it's methods. I would say that in all discussions we must remember about HUGE cultural differences between people of Asia and so-called Western Civilization. I was lucky to be in Cambodia once for 6 months, then I worked a lot with Indonesians, Philippinos, etc, Ad those differences are truly big, and the do influence how the things go.

Anyway my opinion is that you won't save those jobs. You simply need to diversify. Like pretty much everybody nowadays.
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Offline DammitDan

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2008, 12:18:03 AM »
The US never had a National Airline, they chose instead to regulate the Airlines which assured each one a profit and had strict rules about being on time and customer service. Now, it is a mess and service sucks.
We had strict lending guidelines for Banks to avoid the Mortgage mess we have today.
The old timers knew that some Government regulation was necessary to aviod chaos in certain sectors of the economy. They wanted free enterprise, but realized pure Capitalism was not workable.

Can we remember who lifted the majority of these regulations?  I'll give you a hint:  They controlled Congress for the last 12 years and the White House for the last 8 years.

What happened when the federal regulations were lifted on Banks?  The banks went absolutely insane, offering loans to people who didn't have a pot to piss in.

What happened when the credit agencies had their regulations softened?  People started to get offers for a $50000 line of credit at 22-24% interest.  Hell, I was in college, made less than $8,000 a year, and I had a credit card offer every day begging me to take on a $5,000 line of credit.  Ridiculous.

Government regulation isn't always a bad thing, just as Free Markets aren't always a good thing.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2008, 12:21:55 AM by DammitDan »
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Offline DonD

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2008, 10:52:27 AM »
Fairtax

http://www.fairtax.org

Brings back our manufacturing jobs to the USA, it would even entice other countries to set up shop here.

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2008, 11:48:09 AM »
Anything that will simplify the U.S. tax code would get my support. Back in the mid-sixties, had to take a tax course as part of my degree program. At that time, the entire US tax code (as published by Prentice Hall) was almost 1800 pages, tissue paper thin, and very fine tiny print. I can only imagine what it is like today. :o
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2008, 05:30:36 PM »
Yes, you are right, I mean total free-for-all produces problems a'la Argentina. BUT we will not run away from the factories being moved to China, we like it or not, because at the end, the consumer wants cheaper goods.

And don't worry about Poland. I'm hearing that we are your best friend in Europe and you will come in a flash to save us from any aggressors - at least this is what our politicians say when they want to promote your Rocket Shield base to be build in Poland  ;D ;D

After all, after Poland being the longest European support for you in Iraq (not counting UK) now the Czechs can visit USA without visas, but we need to apply for them still.  :D  :D  I know, this is called irony...

Anyway, this is off topic and i don't mean that. China is here to stay, even if we (at least I don't) don't like some of it's methods. I would say that in all discussions we must remember about HUGE cultural differences between people of Asia and so-called Western Civilization. I was lucky to be in Cambodia once for 6 months, then I worked a lot with Indonesians, Philippinos, etc, Ad those differences are truly big, and the do influence how the things go.

Anyway my opinion is that you won't save those jobs. You simply need to diversify. Like pretty much everybody nowadays.
Yes you are correct. Poland is a friend of the US and Poles and others in the US donated money at every Mass to funnel into the movement. There are a lot of Polish Americans and they are very proud of their heritage.
Back on point. China is still a "Communist" Country. They support their companies directly and they offer inducements for foreign investments. The US can also support investment here via our tax code, I would not want to see direct Govt investment in business, but making it easier to create jobs is in our best interests.
People need jobs plain and simple.

PS. I made some "unofficial" flights to Cambodia in the 1970's, I was lucky to get out alive. I am sure it is more friendly now.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2008, 06:37:17 AM »
tissue paper thin,


Is that relevant? If you have to read 1800 pages, a higher paper weight make the book more bulky, but still, you have to read one page after another.....



(smart ass mode off)
 ;D