Author Topic: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China  (Read 4594 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Raul CB750K1

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,881
Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2008, 01:20:34 PM »
(They) aren't doing anything to us.
We are doing this to ourselves.
 
Women buying stuff (cheep) from China don't care. Men buying tools (cheep) made in China, don't care.

Then they whine when a family member is laid off, and want someone (Gov.) to do something.


Well, they do care. They care for their economy. By buying cheap you get an instant reward -money saved- in place of a future, uncertain common good -jobs kept-. It is a logical decision.

It is a logical decision to move the factories to cheaper countries. Don't forget that Vise-grips, even if it was an american company in origin, is now a worldwide company. They sell everywhere. If it is incorporated, its owners can be anywhere, not only in America. They may very well have a bigger sale figure outside US than in their home country. So if their target is the world outside US, what kind of added value give their tools the fact that the people who assemble them are living in the US?


I don't think protectionism is good. It only helps to keep unprofitable industries up. It is much better a "conversion" policy, convert uncompetitive industries into competitive ones, and help people to recycle and learn a new trade.


I think it was Stalin who said "one single death is a tragedy, one million death, an statistic". If an industry is not competitive, the common interest say it must be shut down and converted into a competitive one. To make an omelette, you have to break some eggs. This thinking doesn't help the man who goes to the employment office, but history has shown that trying to keep an uncompetitive industry only prolongs the agony. Ask the motor industry in Spain or the steel industry in Sheffield. And to those who put the blame in incompetent managers, not even when the workers has formed a cooperative, has the company survived in most of the cases. With big demand, even with incompetent manager does a company do well. When the demand plummets, it really takes a genius as a manager to save the company, and even then, it is always painful -layoffs-.



Offline BobbyR

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,365
  • Proud Owner of the Babe Thread & Dirty Old Man
Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2008, 05:23:55 PM »
Unfortunately you are correct Raul. There is a need for manufacturing jobs here in the US. Not everyone has the ability to become a Lawyer, Doctor, Engineer, Programmer or other professional. I am not sure how you do it, but we need to find places this population can earn a living above the minimum wage. If we don't you create a growing permanent underclass, and you get real problems then.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline DammitDan

  • Prodigal Son
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,470
  • It lives!
Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2008, 01:07:22 AM »
And to those who put the blame in incompetent managers, not even when the workers has formed a cooperative, has the company survived in most of the cases.

Anyone ever heard of a little motorcycle company called Triumph?

Something like this happened to them, too...  ;)
CB750K4

rhos1355

  • Guest
Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2008, 01:36:06 AM »
Unfortunately you are correct Raul. There is a need for manufacturing jobs here in the US. Not everyone has the ability to become a Lawyer, Doctor, Engineer, Programmer or other professional. I am not sure how you do it, but we need to find places this population can earn a living above the minimum wage. If we don't you create a growing permanent underclass, and you get real problems then.

Unfortunately, Bobby, the media and the instant gratification brigade expound on the all-encompassing virtue of going to college or university. The mantra amongst parents now is: You gotta go to college, You gotta go to college. They seem to think that a college education is the gateway to success for their kids even when, sometimes, these kids just aren't suitable for higher learning. What is happening here is that kids sign up for  these "Mickey Mouse" degree courses with hardly any prospect of secure employment at the end.
This is to the detriment to a lot of manual but skillful occupations. We still need electricians, plumbers, builders, mechanics, workshop engineers, cabinet makers, carpenters.

Offline Buber

  • A bit of spanner spinner, but definitely not a
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 397
  • #820 on old mailing list.... :)
    • Mountain Chalets in Polands
Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2008, 02:31:39 AM »
We westerners have grown fat and lazy, we charge huge amounts of money to our employers (and I don't mean just salaries; pensions, insurance, maternity leave, health and safety etc etc), and want to work ever reduced hours per week. Did you know that in the EU it is ILLEGAL to work more than 48 hours per week? Even if you want to? We want holidays, we want rights, we want our backsides wiped. No wonder the jobs are going to China; they'll do the same for a bowl of rice  or a smack on the head. Who cares that the quality is not up to standard? They just replace quality with quantity. It's cheaper and therefore equals bigger profits.
Well the fact is that the good ol' US of A HAS gotten fat and lazy. THAT is a result of a capitalist based society.
It's also quite a knee slapper that we are fat and lazy because of capitalism. Fat lazy people don't want to make a buck, they want the government to take a buck from someone else and give it to them. Maybe we are fat and lazy because the government has for the last 50 years taught us that everything we could ever want was a "right" to be paid for by other taxpayers. The saddest part is that the only solution I'm hearing is for everyone EXCEPT the government to do with less and be forced to run their businesses however the government dictates.
You know, this is kinda funny. You mean, the recipe is to become "mean and lean, and non-capitalist"? Well, lots of people of North Korea and Cuba are lean and hard-working, but I doubt You would like to employ such system of governing. And sorry, but thinking along the way of "we must protect our industry, jobs, whatever, because they are ours" even if they are not economical leads to socialism and then communism. And those ideas are compromised - and it's not my fancy, it's a historical fact. And, after all, it was good, 'ole US of A that practically invented and introduced the globalization. Well, there you go, those are the consequences.
My opinion is that you are wrong by saying "let's do something so THEY (i.e. government) keep our factories ours". The only thing THEY can do is to subsidize it, which is simply stealing from other taxpayers to promote the ones who cannot supply a competitive product. This is a pure bred communism, not capitalism.
BUT, as somebody rightly said, you can ask employees, would they agree to work for less (money, privileges, etc) to keep their work. Some maybe would say yes, but others would simply move to find another job. And (by a big shortcut) this is how US of A got populated. By influx of people looking for better salary for their work.
So, it will come a time when poeple in China will get enough money to move the production to... my bet goes to Africa (because by that time Indonesia, Malaysia, and other indo-asiatic countries will be rich). We'll see....
BTW. now is too late to protest. We all are buying Chinese production. There was a movie about California, that people had woken up, and all Mexicans were gone. California collapsed in that movie. Of course it was a comedy, but interesting take nevertheless.

And I have rally fresh experiences. In 90's Poland was a cheap country to locate production. Barely 15yrs later it isn't.  But I can tell you that this is simply stimulating, and good for society - methinks...

Good luck in keeping your jobs in USA! On 1.Sept my employer just opened new plant in China.. it's a fact...  ;D
Welcome to my mountains!
Mountain Chalets

Offline Demon67

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 393
Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2008, 04:52:16 AM »
Right on Buber! You would have a better handle on the aftermath of communism and state control than most of the north americans.
Bill the demon

Offline BobbyR

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,365
  • Proud Owner of the Babe Thread & Dirty Old Man
Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2008, 04:54:18 PM »
We westerners have grown fat and lazy, we charge huge amounts of money to our employers (and I don't mean just salaries; pensions, insurance, maternity leave, health and safety etc etc), and want to work ever reduced hours per week. Did you know that in the EU it is ILLEGAL to work more than 48 hours per week? Even if you want to? We want holidays, we want rights, we want our backsides wiped. No wonder the jobs are going to China; they'll do the same for a bowl of rice  or a smack on the head. Who cares that the quality is not up to standard? They just replace quality with quantity. It's cheaper and therefore equals bigger profits.
Well the fact is that the good ol' US of A HAS gotten fat and lazy. THAT is a result of a capitalist based society.
It's also quite a knee slapper that we are fat and lazy because of capitalism. Fat lazy people don't want to make a buck, they want the government to take a buck from someone else and give it to them. Maybe we are fat and lazy because the government has for the last 50 years taught us that everything we could ever want was a "right" to be paid for by other taxpayers. The saddest part is that the only solution I'm hearing is for everyone EXCEPT the government to do with less and be forced to run their businesses however the government dictates.
You know, this is kinda funny. You mean, the recipe is to become "mean and lean, and non-capitalist"? Well, lots of people of North Korea and Cuba are lean and hard-working, but I doubt You would like to employ such system of governing. And sorry, but thinking along the way of "we must protect our industry, jobs, whatever, because they are ours" even if they are not economical leads to socialism and then communism. And those ideas are compromised - and it's not my fancy, it's a historical fact. And, after all, it was good, 'ole US of A that practically invented and introduced the globalization. Well, there you go, those are the consequences.
My opinion is that you are wrong by saying "let's do something so THEY (i.e. government) keep our factories ours". The only thing THEY can do is to subsidize it, which is simply stealing from other taxpayers to promote the ones who cannot supply a competitive product. This is a pure bred communism, not capitalism.
BUT, as somebody rightly said, you can ask employees, would they agree to work for less (money, privileges, etc) to keep their work. Some maybe would say yes, but others would simply move to find another job. And (by a big shortcut) this is how US of A got populated. By influx of people looking for better salary for their work.
So, it will come a time when poeple in China will get enough money to move the production to... my bet goes to Africa (because by that time Indonesia, Malaysia, and other indo-asiatic countries will be rich). We'll see....
BTW. now is too late to protest. We all are buying Chinese production. There was a movie about California, that people had woken up, and all Mexicans were gone. California collapsed in that movie. Of course it was a comedy, but interesting take nevertheless.

And I have rally fresh experiences. In 90's Poland was a cheap country to locate production. Barely 15yrs later it isn't.  But I can tell you that this is simply stimulating, and good for society - methinks...

Good luck in keeping your jobs in USA! On 1.Sept my employer just opened new plant in China.. it's a fact...  ;D
I think you misunderstood what I said. The US taxes Corporations and allows them certain deductions, some of which are questionable. I proposed adjusting the tax codes to make it attractive to invest in the US and less attractive to off shore jobs.
The US has subsidized Farmers in the US for decades to support our Agriculture and at this time we could be self sufficient since we have multiple climates and productive Farms.
The US never had a National Airline, they chose instead to regulate the Airlines which assured each one a profit and had strict rules about being on time and customer service. Now, it is a mess and service sucks.
We had strict lending guidelines for Banks to avoid the Mortgage mess we have today.
The old timers knew that some Government regulation was necessary to aviod chaos in certain sectors of the economy. They wanted free enterprise, but realized pure Capitalism was not workable.
In Poland you had collectivism and the truth be told totalitarianism. I know this as my Wife's parents are from Poland and relatives continue to come over. Things are far better their than they were under the Russians. Hang on the Russians want to rebuild their Empire. Poland was always their strongest producer of food and manufacturing.    
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline Buber

  • A bit of spanner spinner, but definitely not a
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 397
  • #820 on old mailing list.... :)
    • Mountain Chalets in Polands
Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2008, 11:14:26 PM »
Yes, you are right, I mean total free-for-all produces problems a'la Argentina. BUT we will not run away from the factories being moved to China, we like it or not, because at the end, the consumer wants cheaper goods.

And don't worry about Poland. I'm hearing that we are your best friend in Europe and you will come in a flash to save us from any aggressors - at least this is what our politicians say when they want to promote your Rocket Shield base to be build in Poland  ;D ;D

After all, after Poland being the longest European support for you in Iraq (not counting UK) now the Czechs can visit USA without visas, but we need to apply for them still.  :D  :D  I know, this is called irony...

Anyway, this is off topic and i don't mean that. China is here to stay, even if we (at least I don't) don't like some of it's methods. I would say that in all discussions we must remember about HUGE cultural differences between people of Asia and so-called Western Civilization. I was lucky to be in Cambodia once for 6 months, then I worked a lot with Indonesians, Philippinos, etc, Ad those differences are truly big, and the do influence how the things go.

Anyway my opinion is that you won't save those jobs. You simply need to diversify. Like pretty much everybody nowadays.
Welcome to my mountains!
Mountain Chalets

Offline DammitDan

  • Prodigal Son
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,470
  • It lives!
Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2008, 12:18:03 AM »
The US never had a National Airline, they chose instead to regulate the Airlines which assured each one a profit and had strict rules about being on time and customer service. Now, it is a mess and service sucks.
We had strict lending guidelines for Banks to avoid the Mortgage mess we have today.
The old timers knew that some Government regulation was necessary to aviod chaos in certain sectors of the economy. They wanted free enterprise, but realized pure Capitalism was not workable.

Can we remember who lifted the majority of these regulations?  I'll give you a hint:  They controlled Congress for the last 12 years and the White House for the last 8 years.

What happened when the federal regulations were lifted on Banks?  The banks went absolutely insane, offering loans to people who didn't have a pot to piss in.

What happened when the credit agencies had their regulations softened?  People started to get offers for a $50000 line of credit at 22-24% interest.  Hell, I was in college, made less than $8,000 a year, and I had a credit card offer every day begging me to take on a $5,000 line of credit.  Ridiculous.

Government regulation isn't always a bad thing, just as Free Markets aren't always a good thing.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2008, 12:21:55 AM by DammitDan »
CB750K4

Offline DonD

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2008, 10:52:27 AM »
Fairtax

http://www.fairtax.org

Brings back our manufacturing jobs to the USA, it would even entice other countries to set up shop here.

Offline Bob Wessner

  • "Carbs Suck!"
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,079
Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2008, 11:48:09 AM »
Anything that will simplify the U.S. tax code would get my support. Back in the mid-sixties, had to take a tax course as part of my degree program. At that time, the entire US tax code (as published by Prentice Hall) was almost 1800 pages, tissue paper thin, and very fine tiny print. I can only imagine what it is like today. :o
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline BobbyR

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,365
  • Proud Owner of the Babe Thread & Dirty Old Man
Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2008, 05:30:36 PM »
Yes, you are right, I mean total free-for-all produces problems a'la Argentina. BUT we will not run away from the factories being moved to China, we like it or not, because at the end, the consumer wants cheaper goods.

And don't worry about Poland. I'm hearing that we are your best friend in Europe and you will come in a flash to save us from any aggressors - at least this is what our politicians say when they want to promote your Rocket Shield base to be build in Poland  ;D ;D

After all, after Poland being the longest European support for you in Iraq (not counting UK) now the Czechs can visit USA without visas, but we need to apply for them still.  :D  :D  I know, this is called irony...

Anyway, this is off topic and i don't mean that. China is here to stay, even if we (at least I don't) don't like some of it's methods. I would say that in all discussions we must remember about HUGE cultural differences between people of Asia and so-called Western Civilization. I was lucky to be in Cambodia once for 6 months, then I worked a lot with Indonesians, Philippinos, etc, Ad those differences are truly big, and the do influence how the things go.

Anyway my opinion is that you won't save those jobs. You simply need to diversify. Like pretty much everybody nowadays.
Yes you are correct. Poland is a friend of the US and Poles and others in the US donated money at every Mass to funnel into the movement. There are a lot of Polish Americans and they are very proud of their heritage.
Back on point. China is still a "Communist" Country. They support their companies directly and they offer inducements for foreign investments. The US can also support investment here via our tax code, I would not want to see direct Govt investment in business, but making it easier to create jobs is in our best interests.
People need jobs plain and simple.

PS. I made some "unofficial" flights to Cambodia in the 1970's, I was lucky to get out alive. I am sure it is more friendly now.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline Raul CB750K1

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,881
Re: Enough is enough, no more jobs to China
« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2008, 06:37:17 AM »
tissue paper thin,


Is that relevant? If you have to read 1800 pages, a higher paper weight make the book more bulky, but still, you have to read one page after another.....



(smart ass mode off)
 ;D