Author Topic: K0 Carbs  (Read 4490 times)

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Offline Bob Wessner

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K0 Carbs
« on: September 13, 2005, 04:50:08 AM »
Hope this isn't too long a post, but thought it might be of some value to other K0 owners. As part of my "resurrection" project, the carbs needed work, to say the least. Other than needing a good cleaning though, they and the brass floats, hinge pins and posts were in excellent condition. I cleaned them twice (second time with Yamaha, great stuff) and thinking, since I'm in there, might as well install a rebuild kit, Keyster (good place to remember the old saying "if ain't broke, don't fix it"). When it came time to try and get it running, found a couple of issues. One had to do with the Keyster kits. Discovered the high speed needles had a different, more slender profile toward the tip (used a suggestion from SOHC/4 member to use a drill gauge to determine this). This resulted in a richer mixture at the lower throttle openings. The other kit issue I discovered was the little button in the float valve backed by the internal spring was much stiffer on the Keyster float valve than the the original Honda valve. The difference was easily detected by hand. Anyway, I ended up reinserting the Honda float valves and high speed needles. These changes helped.

The second issue was the float height. I set them at 26mm, per the manuals, and measured them I don't know how many  times, using a sliding "T" ruler I had picked up at the hardware store. I later picked up a gauge offered by an SOHC/4 member which verified you can accurately set the float height with the sliding "T" ruler, but the gauge has the advantage of letting you see the measurement for both sides of the float simultaneously in case they are twisted. I recall some discussion on an earlier thread as to whether or not the 26mm height actually applied to the K0. I guess I still don't know for sure but I can say on my particular bike it doesn't seem to. I don't know if the 26mm is one of those "starting points" and individual results may vary. After all, the floats are brass with soldered joints. Maybe the amount of solder varies, affecting the weight and thus the displacement when submerged in fuel, who knows. At 26mm I was constantly dealing with some intermittent fuel drips from the overflows, and occasional fuel soaked plugs and running rich. I wasn't sure if it was due to bad float valves (recall I used the originals) or sticking/binding floats. I had them apart several times to recheck and investigate, but everything was fine.

Finally, I decided to change the float height. I frankly took a stab at 28mm or so and the problem disappeared. The carbs were sync'd before this last change, and even though I had to pull the carb tops and slides and remove the carbs to readjust the floats this last time, they still seem to be in pretty god balance, though I will verify. The bike is now running reliably and great.

A minor plug here for the Carbtune. Though the most expensive of the three most commonly used balancing tools, and I'm sure an experienced tuner could do the job with any of them, if not by ear, for a greenhorn such as myself, the Carbtune was just the ticket. No cumbersome mercury sticks (which I'm sure I would break, klutz that I am) and no flutter associated with the vacuum gauges. Nifty tool and very compact.
Anyway, hope this helps anyone else with a K0. And if you already knew this, how come you never told me?  >:(  ;D
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline dusterdude

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Re: K0 Carbs
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2005, 05:22:39 AM »
we just like to watch you sweat bob.glad you got it straight.now ride on brother.
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

jaannaktin

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Re: K0 Carbs
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2005, 07:01:58 AM »
 8)

Bob:

You are too cool for words. I'm glad you have the time and energy to burn bridges before I ever get to them!

Keep on keeping on.

 :D

Jaan

Offline techy5025

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Re: K0 Carbs
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2005, 01:40:22 PM »
Bob.

Thanks for the writeup, :)  The floats in my K0 had holes in them and not being a
"microwelder" I decided to replace the entire carb assembly with a K2 assembly.  I
now realize that I could have just swapped floats, but I am much happier with the
ease of adjustment on the K2's anyway. My number one carb still has an overflow
issue that based on your experience may be a float height adjustment.

I have no idea of the history of the internals of the K2's.....they adjusted OK and the
bike runs OK, but your mention of differences in the needles makes me wonder if
they are correct.  I know the ones in the K0 carbs are original as I have owned the
bike since it was 4 months old.

So if the Keyster kits are not correct...which ones are?  I can't imagine Honda still
sells kits.

I'm now in the process of "improving" the front brakes, but I may revisit the carbs
after that is done.  Reading all the posts on brake issues, I'm not sure that I will
ever be happy with the brakes, but at least I hope to improve them to the point
that the bike doesn't speed up when I clamp down on them. ;D

Jim
........
1969 750 K0 (Reborn)
1969 Sandcast 750 K0 (Reborn)
2003 CBR600F4I
........

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: K0 Carbs
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2005, 01:50:27 PM »
Jim,

One thing I left out of the write up that might come in handy if you think you have a float (fuel) height issue. It was suggested by others here and worked great. Find some clear tubing about the size of the float bowl drain screw hole and sort of screw it in. I used some that was slightly smaller and used some Teflon plumbing tape to seal the end a bit better. I did it on all four carbs at once to get an initial feel for the fuel levels. I even posted them here for opinions and most felt the levels were a bit high to start wth and that was when it was set to 26mm.
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline techy5025

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Re: K0 Carbs
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2005, 02:06:34 PM »
Bob,

Great idea!  I wonder if the threaded hole for the float drain is the same
as the hole for the vacuum test port.  If so, I could use the special adapters
for vacuum senseling that already have a hole in the center to connect the
clear tubing.................hmmmm....


Jim
........
1969 750 K0 (Reborn)
1969 Sandcast 750 K0 (Reborn)
2003 CBR600F4I
........

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: K0 Carbs
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2005, 02:50:35 PM »
Jim,

Let us know if that works. The parts list does not give dimensions for either of them.
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline techy5025

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Re: K0 Carbs
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2005, 03:18:32 PM »
Bob,

Well, it was a good idea....but as the sayings goes...no cigar. :o

The drain thread is about 50 percent bigger than the vacuum
fitting....bummer.  It would be great to have a metric adapter
to use in the drain hole as I see this being used often.

Maybe I'll have a buddy with a lathe make me one.  Probably a
six pack would do it.  ;D

Jim
........
1969 750 K0 (Reborn)
1969 Sandcast 750 K0 (Reborn)
2003 CBR600F4I
........

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: K0 Carbs
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2005, 04:11:27 PM »
Quote
Maybe I'll have a buddy with a lathe make me one.  Probably a six pack would do it.

If he would make two sets, I'll spring for a case of his favorite.  ;D
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

jsaab2748

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Re: K0 Carbs
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2005, 05:35:42 PM »
Guys, if you can get them, use 4 spare float bowl drain screws and drill them to accept a small piece of tubing, brass, steel,etc. and JB weld around the tubes into the holes. Then just attach your favorite clear plastic hose. Just threw that out there case no one has seen it....

Offline pwright

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Re: K0 Carbs
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2005, 06:27:00 PM »
Lot of good advice here,

I used the drain screw trick, but as I only had one screw I had to fill the bowls, then drain and change the screw, and repeat for all four carbs. However, this was probably the most helpful tool in diagnosing carb problems. It revealed one float way to high, while two others had cracked standpipes that I couldn't even really see. However, knowing the actual fuel height from this makeshift tool told me that the height was right on, but they were still leaking.

On another note, I did test the bowls for leaks before re-assembly.... and didn't get any noticeable leakage through the standpipes. This was with testing them full of water, completely separate from the carbs When connected to the tank, however, the two leaky ones were dripping gas constantly! My theory: The added pressure head of 3 gallons of gas a foot above them, as well as (and I couldn't find information on this) possible different viscosity between gas and water, were enough to force the gas into the standpipes through the hairline cracks. Just a heads up for future carb rebuilders that might save some time.

Oh yeah, and finally, I did see a crack on one of the standpipes after looking closely... it was merely a hairline crack right at the base of the tube, facing the near side of the bowl. Essentially it was unnoticeable without careful inspection. JB welded up the two standpipes and not a drop in 500 miles of riding....

-Pat-


Offline Jonesy

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Re: K0 Carbs
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2005, 07:48:01 PM »
So if the Keyster kits are not correct...which ones are? I can't imagine Honda still
sells kits.

I can't find any number for a "rebuild kit" per se. Let's see what it takes to rebuild CB750 K series carbs with genuine Honda/KeiHin parts:

Jets-
Needle Jet Set (Needle Jet, Jet Needle (KeiHin #27201) and E-clip): 16012-300-014 $16.28
Main Jet (KeiHin #120) 99114-246-1200 or (KeiHin #110) 99114-246-1100 (KeiHin #105) 99114-246-1050 $3.48
Slow Jet (KeiHin #40) 99124-076-0400 $4.98
Needle Jet Holder 16139-300-004 $9.76

Float Bowl Items-
Float (if required) 16122-300-004 $6.51 (Discontinued)
Needle Valve Set (KeiHin #2.0) 16125-235-004 $3.45 (Discontinued)
Needle Valve Sealing Washer 16188-259-004 $0.18 (Discontinued)

Gaskets-
Vacuum Port Sealing Washer 16170-300-004 $0.76
Bowl Gasket 16129-300-004 $2.32 (Discontinued)
Carburetor Top Gasket 16110-300-004 $0.95 (Discontinued)
Bowl Drain O-ring 16175-001-004 $2.82

Misc-
Air Metering Screw 16137-300-004 $1.12 (Discontinued)
Air Screw Spring 16181-202-004 $1.63

So, let's see.. assuming you could buy all these parts (these are Service Honda Prices, just for an idea) you'd be looking at spending $54.24, or a whopping $216.96 to do all 4 carbies.

From my experience, the Keyster gasket sets and springs work OK, but avoid the needles and other items.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2005, 08:07:45 PM by jonesdp »
"Every time I start thinking the world is all bad, then I start seeing people out there having a good time on motorcycles; it makes me take another look." -Steve McQueen

scottgarland

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Re: K0 Carbs
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2005, 09:01:19 PM »
Just went thuough  the ko rebuild myself. Had to get a couple of needles as mine were corrodid. A kind member told me k2 needles would work and they did. Used murcury sticks to balance carbs. Got two different methods from two differnt books. Test drove and bike ran great for about half an hour. Then it acted like it was starving for fuel, and died at a stoplight. I think possible gas tank cap not venting. After inspection of fuel level I was able to ride home with  no symptoms until almost at my street, about a half hour trip. Anyone else experanced this?

Offline dusterdude

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Re: K0 Carbs
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2005, 07:37:50 AM »
scott,best way to diagnose the gas cap is leave it loose and ride it for a while and see what happens.pat,i had the same issue with my standpipes they would not leak off the bike but they damn sure do on the bike.
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

scottgarland

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Re: K0 Carbs
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2005, 08:13:54 PM »
Thanks I'll give It a go. I ride to work so at least I am headed twords tools.

Kurt

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Re: K0 Carbs
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2005, 05:21:56 AM »
When I read the initial post it was mentioned "constanty dealing with a intermittent drip from th e overflow tubes". That struck a cord with me because I have a similar issue. Here is some details. My bike is a 73 500/4 K1. If I park the bike the overflows drip. One carb in particular will drip, stop, then actually pee fule a couple seconds, stop, drip, and again. Almost like clock work. If I get on the bike and stand it up straight, fuel whizzes out all 4 overflows for a couple seconds and stops. The bike seems to run fine though it has never idled. I cleaned the carbs but did not rebuild them yet (winter project). Are the floats not set correctly? I have no clue where they should be set nor do I really know how to go about doing it. That bit about removing slides to adjust was foreign to me. If I look at the floats they look ok but I have no idea where the adjustment should be. 26mm refers to what in the posts above?

I apologize for my carb ignorance but have really never had to mess with them. I have adjusted floats before but have been accused of being a "bend it until it looks right" kinda guy. I learned that technique from fixing the toilet upstairs.  :)

I can honestly say that I now am an expert in getting the carb bank off and dealing with that air box/boot business. I'd love to meet the guy that engineered that thing. One more inch of space would not have been too much to ask I don't think. :-)

Thanks for any help!

Kurt "the clueless carb guy"

Offline Jonesy

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Re: K0 Carbs
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2005, 05:33:09 AM »
I can honestly say that I now am an expert in getting the carb bank off and dealing with that air box/boot business. I'd love to meet the guy that engineered that thing. One more inch of space would not have been too much to ask I don't think. :-)

I used to work in a Honda shop and a few of the mechanics would grouse about everything being so tightly packaged. One used to explain it with the logic that it was so small because the Japanese (being smaller people) had the "little tiny hands to get in there"....
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: K0 Carbs
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2005, 06:40:36 AM »
Quote
I have no idea where the adjustment should be. 26mm refers to what in the posts above

Kurt,

Can't claim to be familiar with the 500, but generally, each model has a "float height" spec in the manual, but don't know what it would be for your bike, doubt it is 26mm though. The measurement is taken holding the carb(s) at a slight angle so that the float tab is just barely touching the float valve spring tip. The measurement is from the farthest float edge (would be the bottom edge of the float as mounted on the bike) to the edge of the carb body where the float bowl seats. I used a small sliding t-ruler I found at the hardware store that measures in both inches and mm's.

I hear you about becoming adept at removing and reinstalling carbs.  ;)
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: K0 Carbs
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2005, 07:29:38 AM »
Quote
One used to explain it with the logic that it was so small because the Japanese (being smaller people) had the "little tiny hands to get in there"....

I've frequently thought that myself, usually while uttering some expletive.   >:( ;D
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

kaysystems

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Re: K0 Carbs
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2005, 02:38:08 PM »
Bob.

Did you replace the needle jets as well as the needles? My jets are worn. They are a press fit as I'm sure you know. I was surprised at how much the hole had worn in 35000 miles, making the bike run rich most of the time.
The jets are not in the Keyster K0 kit, but are in the K2 kit which is identical except for the extra jet and the top gasket being a different shape. CMS in the Netherlands sell jet & needle kits by Keester.

I was lucky...I found 4 K0 Honda needle & jet kits at Western Hill Honda. I'm sure the K2 Honda kit is the same, as the parts catalogue shows the same part numbers. Several of the on-line dealers list the kit.....

K0 Needle Jet kit  16012-300-004
K1 Needle Jet kit  16012-300-014

David
 :)

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: K0 Carbs
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2005, 02:41:31 PM »
I used the main jets from the Keyster kits, but used the original needles as the Keyster needles I had were noticeably more slender toward the tip leading to a rich condition at lower throttle.
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kaysystems

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Re: K0 Carbs
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2005, 02:46:19 PM »
I used the main jets from the Keyster kits, but used the original needles as the Keyster needles I had were noticeably more slender toward the tip leading to a rich condition at lower throttle.
I once measured the Honda & Keyster needles & figured out that the Keyster ones were letting between 5 and 8 percent more fuel in (based on the area of the jets/needles)

Guess what I'm doing over this winter.....glad you mentioned the Yamaha cleaner. Hope I can get it here in Canada.

David