Topic: Checking in from Germany. Euro SOHC Questions...

[GroovieGhoulie]

Hey all!

Still deployed to the Sandbox, but on R&R right now and visiting my brother in Germany.  He's stationed here and he just got back from Afghanistan.  We're having a blast, and I'm getting to decompress some.

Things are well, but I gotta hit up the brain trust here with a few Euro SOHC questions.  My brother's gone bike crazy here and is wanting something to ride.

1. Are SOHC Prices normally so out of control here in Europe?  I know the market's gone crazy for these bikes in general, but the prices for even mediocre examples are completely insane over here.  Like high-mileage, imperfect 750s and 550s for 2,000-3,000 Euro.  Get the F*** outta here!!

2. Are mileages normally so high?  On eBay and Classifieds, finding examples with anything less than 30,000 KMs is nearly impossible and 50-70,000+ are the most common.

3. He found this ad on the internet and we're gonna go check it out on Friday.  This is a typical example of what is out there.  Needs work, not perfect, high miles, but still REALLY expensive.  That's like twice what that bike should cost in the States. 

http://home.mobile.de/home/showDetails.html?id=71098831&__lp=2&scopeId=AV&sortOption.sortBy=makeModelDescriptionSortField&sortOption.sortOrder=ASCENDING&makeModelVariant1.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant2.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant3.searchInFreetext=false&siteId=GERMANY&damageUnrepaired=ALSO_DAMAGE_UNREPAIRED&customerIdsAsString=460879&lang=de&pageNumber=1&partnerHead=true&showZip=false&showModels=false&hideVehicleType=false

Click on "Bilder" and look at pics.  Even if you don't speak German, the pictures tell a thousand words.

Now, it's a Euro-only 500K3, which, if I recall correctly is the 550 bottom end with 500 jugs and heads.  Not a bad deal.  However, it looks like a Frankenbike.  I thought the Euro 500s had the later-style tank and sidecovers, but this one has the early-style tank and seat and stuff, yet the later gauges and warning light panel.  The front forks are the later Ceriani-style with the single-brace fender, while I thought the K front ends were gaitor-ed up to this point.  Also, note the front "Disney" GL1000 winkers, but the rear "beehive" earlier winkers.  Was the front end replaced?  Also note the dodgy wiring at the steering head, the incorrect inner valve caps, the fixed stator cover, the non-factory-design brake lines and other red flags.

This bike straight-up gives me the heebie-jeebies, but I think he's got a case of "gotta-have-it-itis" an he might get it, despite my advice, since he wants a bike to "Cafe" and he's not worried about originality at all.  Checking it out and tire-kicking is fine, but I don't want him to commit, ya know?

So, Euro-Brain Trust:  Educate me as much as possible on the Euro-spec 500K3 and on the prices and such for Euro SOHCs in general.  Where's the best place to look for good deals?  I just want to make sure he gets a good bike at a good price.

Thanks all.

[troppo]

Over here in aus 50 - 70 thousand on the clock is reasonable to low mileage for these bikes,

[Buber]

Here ya go.
http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/search.html?isSearchRequest=true&sortOption.sortBy=price.consumerGrossEuro&sortOption.sortOrder=ASCENDING&lang=de&scopeId=MB&_features=on&negativeFeatures=EXPORT&category=&makeModelVariant1.makeId=11000&makeModelVariant1.modelDescription=cb750&makeModelVariant2.makeId=&makeModelVariant2.modelDescription=&makeModelVariant3.makeId=&makeModelVariant3.modelDescription=&minFirstRegistrationDate=&maxFirstRegistrationDate=1980-12-31&minMileage=&maxMileage=&minPowerAsArray=&minPowerAsArray=KW&maxPowerAsArray=&maxPowerAsArray=KW&cubicCapacities=&minPrice=&maxPrice=&fuel=&transmission=&damageUnrepaired=NO_DAMAGE_UNREPAIRED&ambitCountry=&zipcode=&adLimitation=&daysAfterCreation=&drivingMode=
As you will see there's quite a few 750's to be had. 500 and 550 were simply not that popular. Now, if it is to be instantly ridden you must pay real money, that is over 1700-2000 euro. Otherwise 1000 euro gets you a bike with some minor tinkering.
Mileage - well, what do you expect? People use their bikes. Good news - in Germany very ofetn it's the Autobahn miles, and that is the best miles you can put on a bike, so no worries, just try to listen how engine goes (BTW, did you already tried German - no-speed-limit driving?  )

I bought mine CB650 for 450 euros, and apart of tyres, oil etc, and fixing the starter clutch, it is perfect.
Unless you want to save some, then DOHC ones can be had even cheaper...

Aha! You may want to try as well the http://www.motoscout24.de/Public/Home.aspx

Good luck!
(There you go typical American tourist - visiting family in military bases all around the world....  )

[HondaMan]

A 500 in that condition here would cost around $2k to $2500, too. The 750s I'm rebuilding go for considerably more than that. Consider what a newer bike costs ($10,000 for something comparable), and it's not hard to see why. Also, in Europe, there are special fees on bikes over 500cc, so the 500cc ceiling brings premium prices.

Heck, those beautiful pipes alone are worth over $1000!

[GroovieGhoulie]

Thanks for the quick responses, this is GREAT.

As far as mileage expectations, well, less than 10K miles or 16K kms is where I think "starting point".  I know miles aren't a big deal IF maintenance has been properly done, but higher mileage machines generally are gonna have shorter times before overhauls or maintenance than low-mile examples.  Then there's the internal stuff like primary chains that usually aren't done unless it's a high-mile machine and that can be a big deal.  I admit to being a stickler for low-mileage, all else being equal, but I'm not scared of higher-mileage machines, as long as the maintenance is fully documented and done.

Example:  We found a 78,000 km (about 50,000-something miles I think) '76 750F1 over here that needs some cosmetic love for 3000 Euro, which is about $5,000US.  I found my identical 750F1 in perfect cosmetic shape with 568 miles on it for $5600 in late 2006 and with a couple hundred bucks in rebuilding the sticking brakes and a tune-up, for less than $6000 US, I had basically a perfect-condition BRAND-NEW bike.  Now, I can't see paying nearly the same money for an example with 50,000+ miles and some cosmetic pookies.  For $5 grand, I expect near perfection, but I suppose that the market has grown faster in the last two years than I thought.  Our family's stable of Hondas were bought for what I consider fair prices (WAY lower than what they go for over here) and they all (for the most part) have low or low-ish mileage. 

The price of "Perfection" over here is insane.  Imagine "Sandcast Prices" for garden-variety K1s and K2s.  Perfect-condition, low-mile K1s for sale here that would fetch $5-6 grand in the US ($8K TOPS) are carrying 10K Euro asking prices.  That's $16,000+!!!!  For a "regular" K1!!!!  Not even a K0 or Sandcast.  I don't even wanna know the price on those.

Though, compounding that problem is that prices we would pay in dollars, that's the price in Euros, which makes it more expensive since I think of the value of things in "dollars", not "euros".  I'm constantly converting in my head every price I see, just to see how much I'm REALLY paying.  I need to quit that.

As far as that 500, the pipes and bodywork DO look good, but I think that would be a $1500-2000 machine in the states, as it sits, ESPECIALLY with the mileage. Whereas here, it's 2000 Euro, or just over $3000US, which is about a grand too high, (to me).  Especially for a machine that will be Cafe'd and modified, why not get a "tinkerer" anyway.

Hope some of this scattershot posting makes sense.  My brain is all over the map lately and I apologize.

[bryanj]

Thats NOT a K3 its a 500K2, only you yanks had 550 from 74, here in europe we kept the 500K2 until 77 and then got the 550K3 and F.

As to prices its not Europe thats expensive its the USA that is cheap.

What you would pay $50 in boxes for would cost £100 ($200) in the UK just for the parts, I was giving £150 for complete, non runners (but not locked up) 3 years ago

[turboguzzi]

Well, being based in milano i can testify that it's not only old sohc's that are expensive, new bikes cost here about the same amount in euros rather than dollars, so they automaticaly cost a good 25-30% higher. why would a ducati cost in italy 25% more than after being shipped to the US is beyond me.... but it's true.

Sohc prices are high in italy too, though 500's (not 550's) are very common here, I think 750's were way to expensive here when new, so very few of them around. It's neither a big secret that 70's japanese bikes are imported to europe from the US as they are indeed way cheaper in dollars, there are quite a few UK operations doing just that.

Milleages can be high here as many use bikes as actual daily transportation.

I know it's hard to accept, but I guess that if you don't want to go through the hassle of importing one, you'll have to accept the market prices.

One tip though, prices in holland and belgium seem to be lower than anywhere else in europe.

TG

[Buber]

The price of "Perfection" over here is insane. .....

No, just wake up to the reality. You ARE pampered with prices of bikes, parts, fuel, etc. You do, you just don't know about it... 

As to prices its not Europe thats expensive its the USA that is cheap.

+1 on that, Buddy....

[GroovieGhoulie]

Alright, here is a perspective you DO NOT have. While I feel for you guys (and gals) on the continent as it were, America WAS the bigger market. All things being equal, our market is more saturated, and our bikes are less likely to be daily riders. So are we SPOILED per se? No, and I take slight offense to that accusation.

We just happen to have a "better" market in that we have more bikes and so more options to be picky. If you have a mediocre bike, you have to price it accordingly (read: low), or you just can't sell it. The prices are what the markets will bear. I am not raising my nose at, nor being indignant or offended by the Euro market, just a little "shocked". Remember one important fact: my pay check is in Dollars, and the checks I write are in Euros.

All I can say is that I now fully realize why guys buy the bikes in the US and import 'em. Even after all is said & done they still save a SH*TLOAD of cash.

[Buber]

Oh boy, I believe Raoul is right saying that on this forum you can't even joke about US of A....
Chill out man, I'm not jealous, I just envy you. On the same note, you may (maybe) appreciate more us, Europeans, that we are striving to carry on with a hobby that's much more expensive for us than it is for you.

It is not that you "have" better market, or "happen to have" best market. There' simply a lot of you, so there is a big market and that's it. Very soon China will be cheapest - what I'm saying, China IS cheapest, only not for this type of bikes. 

So, take it easy, and simply enjoy the perks you got for free with your place of birth, and once upon a time think about it, that not everybody has them. And then APPRECIATE and cherish what you have, because others don't have it - and mostly it wasn't their fault.

Chill out, man.... 

[GroovieGhoulie]

yeah, no man I am NOT hammering you or getting upset  Its kinda hard to covey subtlety in text (sorry).

ALOT of people will take potshots at us for having the cheap bikes, and I put "better" in quotation marks to covey the way the manufacturers view the US market (as THE biggest) so they support it very heavily.

please understand I have noting but respect for guys who love these old machines enough to invest some SERIOUS cash. Its just like getting thrown into a pool of ice water (shocking) when ya see the market for the first time. so yeah, sorry to put ya on blast.

 

[rhos1355]

Buber, I think that maybe you're over reacting to Groovie's reply. It didn't seem that uptight to me.
But getting back to the USA vs Europe price discussion, I personally feel that a lot of old timer markets on this side on the Atlantic "Jack up" the price range 'cos the seller thinks it's a rich man's hobby in europe so the rich man should pay higher prices. I holiday quite often in the central part of Italy, I speak Italian but with a British accent and whenever I enquire as to the price of a classic bike or other property, you can literally see the euro signs flashing in the seller's eyes. Having said that, the area I frequent in Italy is very popular biking country (Valentino Rossi lives about an hour away) But I've hardly ever seen a classic bike being ridden, it's all modern flashy sports bikes. So where is the market for classics there if no-one seems to be riding them?

[troppo]

Well not wanting to continue any bad spirit, but i also envy the yanks...
Here in aus its damned expensive to get any parts for these old girls, half the time its cheaper to buy from a U.S supplier (including the postage) than to buy over here, and our supply of ebay parts is a lot slimmer too.
I go green when i hear of some of the craigslist and ebay bargains you guys tell us about.
All the same, this forum is the biggest bargain i have found since i bout the old girls, learned more and got better prices from here than anywhere else i can think of....

[Buber]

yeah, no man I am NOT hammering you or getting upset  Its kinda hard to covey subtlety in text (sorry).
....
 

Right-o bro, and sorry if it came the other way. We simply should meet! I could show you some really nice places... I don't want to spam, but.. As it happens, I organized already 2nd meet of "Old Japs" -I wanted of course only Honda SOHC's, but that would be wishing for too much.
Anyway - if you want to bother - here's a peek:
http://picasaweb.google.pl/Peterek69/SpotkanieStarejJaponiiWrzesie2008#
The one in red T-shirt lacking hair it's me... 
And that was in the spring..
http://picasaweb.google.pl/Peterek69/SpotkanieStarejJaponiiCzerwiec2008#

.... Having said that, the area I frequent in Italy is very popular biking country (Valentino Rossi lives about an hour away) .....

Didn't he lives in Britain?  That would be even closer, no?

And here's one you should visit in Italy:
http://www.honda4fun.com/h4fest/h4fest_6/h4fest3_wp_it.html?cat=5

One day I WILL go there... Matter of explaining to my wife the necessity of such expense (about 1200kms one way, and fuel about 7$ a gallon  )

[Raul CB750K1]

Groovie, I was wondering about your whereabouts. Glad everything is fine with you.


My 2 cents: You can't buy a SOHC in Spain for less than 3 grand (euros), and that's without the paperwork. That is, somebody travels around Europe buying bikes, and then sells here at a profit, and leave the paperwork for you. And that' is a big PITA.

I bought mine in 2003 for.... 1215 euro. Cheap? Now I think it was, but I couldn't sleep that day thinking that I was paying serious money for a bike with no title and not running. I believed the seller, but how was I to know how the engine was?

Going through the registration was a big big PITA. Now the bike is road worthy, scarce as hens' teeth, and I know I could list it for 6.000 euro and nobody will call me crazy. Sure thing, it would take months, if not years, to sell. There are not much people with 6.000 euro of disposable income to spend on a 40 year old bike. Even worst, the people who have that money is not good at things mechanical -in general-, so they don't enjoy tinkering. They enjoy being seen.

I saw the other day a K2 listed at 10.000 euro. I think it's crazy. But 5.000-8.000 euro for a CB750 in Spain is not crazy. They were never officially imported here, so they are indeed scarce. I agree with Buber: the USA market was so big and the CB750 sold so well that the prices are set when compared with better examples. If you have a bucket of rust you cant ask 1 grand for it when running bikes are selling for 1.5K.


I could have never put my CB750 on the road without Internet, and this forum for that matter. I found a lot of information here, advice, links, tips, and also I used internet to learn from others who had gone through the red tape of importing a vehicle into Spain. I benefitted during some time of eBay, but now, when the dollar is weak, USPS raised their prices and I can't buy from US anymore. I have to buy in euros, in the Honda dealer or cmsnl.com.

Germany seems to be the country with more following of the SOHC hondas. The average german, to my eye, seems to have an engineer inside so there is a mechanic in every rider and the german bikes are usually in top condition. Hondas were sold in France and Italy too, but those owners -probably because of lack of language learning in their schooldays- seem to have trouble with english and they have their own forums in their mother tongue, so it seems like if they are a closed group.


Riding an old bike has become, also in Spain, fashionable, so everybody with an old bike is asking for fortunes. That's where the downside of Internet becomes apparent. Before, somebody with a jewel in the barn would pay to have it taken. Now, an old man ask his grandson to get rid of the old machine. The young lad, with no bike culture, inserts the name on the badge in Google and finds a lot of gossip around the bike, so he discovers the bike can be valuable. Do a little more search, finds out the bike is valuable, and another chance to get a bargain from somebody who wanted to scrap a bike is gone.

[andy750]

Alright, here is a perspective you DO NOT have. While I feel for you guys (and gals) on the continent as it were, America WAS the bigger market. All things being equal, our market is more saturated, and our bikes are less likely to be daily riders. So are we SPOILED per se? No, and I take slight offense to that accusation.

We just happen to have a "better" market in that we have more bikes and so more options to be picky.

I think you have been spoiled by cheap bike prices and thats fine, nothing to get upset over  and you are now LEARNING that not every place is like America 

However, a few misconceptions.... the US does not per se have   "more" choices of bikes. There are plenty of Japanese bikes and European bikes that never make it to the US Market. The sportsbike marker is growing in the US but nowhere near as big as in Europe. As such there are more choices of sportsbikes in Europe (supply and demand economics). Bikes have higher miles in Europe as we ride them more (no brainer there) and so finding a low mileage example is going to cost more since its more rare (another no brainer). As Hondaman said above, the same CB500 that you showed in the link will go for high $$s here in the States (for the same reasons Raul mentioned - fashion, getting rare though still plenty more than in Europe due to the simple fact that more were sold thereby increasing the chances of finding a low mileage example  - if thats not spoiled for choice I dont know what is  ).

Rhos - since when was motorcycling ever a rich mans hobby?? We arent talking yachting here  . A bike is the first thing you buy when you have NO money and cant afford a car. Thats why you ride it everywhere and in every kind of weather. Do you think the cafe racers in the 50`s and 60`s were rich kids?

End of the day Ghoulie if you want a "rare" classic bike in Europe you are going to have to pay for it...just the same as here in the States 

No offense,
cheers
Andy
 

[dave400]

Not many things in Europe are as cheap as things are in the US, my European bike has more North American parts fitted than I can count, just because it was cheaper and easier to source good usable parts on that side of the pond ( US  ebay ) and some via the people on this forum which was a great help!
Welcome to the real world of SOHC prices in Europe GG and good luck with your search for a cheap classic.

Buber if you ever decide to visit the Honda 4 fest let me know, I plan on a visit one day  I hope!

Cheers

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Buy it, ride it, and sell it when it's time to come home. That way you get your euros back and you probably don't lose a euro dime.

[Raul CB750K1]

Buy it, ride it, and sell it when it's time to come home. That way you get your euros back and you probably don't lose a euro dime.

Well, that may not be as easy as it seems. He may not be able to register the bike if he doesn't have citizenship, or at least, a permanent address or local registration. Even if he can, he may not be able to insure it. Over here, regulations are quite strict when it comes to operating a motor vehicle. His driving licence may very well not be valid in many of the UE countries -as mine wasnt in Tennessee-.

Now, bring your vehicle with you and then you suddenly becomes a tourist operating your own vehicle, registered in your country and with an international insurance coverage. Then you are allowed to drive it, but for a certain period of time.


Other thing is if you just buy your bike and ride like you stole it -or you stole it for that matter-. When police stops you, show your american passport and play the uninformed. If you are lucky and policemen doesn't speak english, an the bike has not been reported stolen, you may very well die of old age and still operate your vehicle with no paper whatsoever....

[GroovieGhoulie]

Thanks for all the information, really.  I'm not knocking Europe or anything, and in fact, Andy, you are totally correct:  I am INSANELY envious of the bike selection in Europe.  You guys get WAY cooler bikes than we do in the US.  In the US it seems everything is either a Harley/Harley-clone or a plastic-clad Race Replica.  Period.  There are no good "standard" bikes and for us fans of smaller bikes, we're sh*t outta luck.  On that, y'all got us beat, no question.

And please, I am not trying to come off as the Ugly American, thinking we're better than everyone.  The opposite in fact.  I certainly can criticize America when we come up short, so I was so not trying to convey that image.  The location of your birth is random and we have no say in the matter, so I'm not one of those "rah, rah I'm better because I'm an American".  That's BS.  I do think that we have it better in America in some ways, but that Europe and the Far East also have a leg up on us in some ways.  I take a balanced, nuanced view of the world.  

I guess it was sticker shock, and to be honest, I've seen prices on US bikes going up as well.  The market is just trending upwards, and I partially blame gas prices making people pull old bikes out of the barn, which is nice, (I'd rather see 'em ridden than wasting away) but it's driving prices up.  My "goal" of sorts was to own one each of the SOHC Fours because I couldn't decide on which one I wanted.  Right now, the only one I lack is the 350F and I'm resigning myself to the fact that I'll probably never own one.  Aside from price, I'm straight up out of garage space!!

I didn't wanna start a SOHC War, and I'm glad everyone kept their head about them.  Were I gonna be here longer, I would definitely try and meet some of you guys, but in about a week I'm heading back to the Box, which is a bummer.

Well we're gonna go tire-kicking tomorrow, we'll see how it goes!

[andy750]

Hey Ghoulie, cool post and Im glad we can discuss such things without going AWOL. I also agree with what you just wrote  Anyway not sure where you are in Germany but  if near Munich then get in touch with Axl the Satanic Mechanic (and forum member - sohc4). He knows all about SOHCs (and more) and is a member of German SOHC club - if anyone can help you find a bike in Germany he can!! And hes a great guy! Highly recommend meeting him if you could.

Anyway let us know how it goes and keep enjoying that German beer (for the rest of us  ).

And best of luck going back to the Box. I wish you well!
cheers
Andy

[Operator]

After having spent the last two years living in Germany, I can tell you that a bike for 2000 Euros in Germany can be found for about 1600 Euros on the Dutch side (holland) Not sure of the reason (possibly the annual inspection quality) but I lived right on the border and hunted for about a year for another "oldtimer" to add to the collection. 90% of the time they were cheaper on the Dutch side. As for the price difference compared to N. America, one thing is for sure, on the most part, they treat their vehicles like part of the family, my neighbour's DAILY ride was a  30's  BMW and it looked like it was maybe 5 years old. Also the fact is that in Germany, EVERY vehicle undergoes a very strict inspection, not just a visual inspection, but also a detailed mechanical one. I have been many places and have never seen used vehicle quality like I did in Germany. Anyway good luck tommorrow and remeber, the Germans will barter, especially if it is a shop but you gotta be aggressive or you'll pay what is on the tag.

Hope this helps

Operator

[rhos1355]

Rhos - since when was motorcycling ever a rich mans hobby?? We arent talking yachting here  . A bike is the first thing you buy when you have NO money and cant afford a car. Thats why you ride it everywhere and in every kind of weather. Do you think the cafe racers in the 50`s and 60`s were rich kids?

I beg to differ, mate. Take a look at the following price list of the stuff I bought 8 years ago when I first started biking.

Gloves £25
All weather Jacket £98
Leather Trousers £140
Boots 110
Crash Helmet £150
Bike (TRansalp-6 years old) £2600
Insurance £345
Road Tax £60
MOT (yearly inspection) £29
4000 mile service £180+

Need I go on? I won't bother but suffice to say that on the K2 I'm in the process of restoring I have so far bought about £600 worth of bits and bobs from Dave Silver (cheapest honda parts supplier I know). All the stuff I bought you could fit into a beer crate! I haven't even started ordering the parts for the engine.

Powder coating Frame £170
Vapour blasting head, barrels and casings £180
Polishing Valve cover engine side covers £100
Chroming rear wheel sprocket £40
Recondition Cylinder Head and valves £80
2 new tyres £I really don't wanna know

I reckon the whole resto is gonna cost me in the region of £2000. Call that cheap?
The average age of bikers in the UK is around 42-45. Why? Usually 'cos they've paid off their mortgage, insurance is affordable, kids have mostly left home or have gone to live with their step-dad. Nah mate, biking is NOT for the feint hearted.

[andy750]

Rhos,

I wasnt talking about custom point-by-point restoration which of course is skys-the-limit 

I was thinking more along the lines of someone who is wanting independent transport has two choices - car or motorcycle. Which is cheaper? For me living in Glasgow, Scotland it was much cheaper to buy a second hand motorcycle (MZ 125 for £500) to go back and forth from my house to Glasgow (10 miles each way). I already had a leather jacket, helmet (less than £100), gloves £30, insurance for a year (less than £200), MOT/TAX (£x - both cheaper than for a car and maintenance costs usually cheaper as well...and better mpg than a car). As a student this was the most affordable route and...free parking anywhere! Try doing this in a car! And...in the summer the bike gets you a job as a motorcycle courier so actually pays for itself. Ever see a rich courier? No they are all blackened from riding in the dirt and grime all day and are no richer for their troubles (not by much anyway).

Who needs to be rich to afford all that?? Cheap !

Now if you want to spend lots of money making your bike look pretty and nice so that it shines nicely in the sun...go ahead...for that you usually do need to be a rich man  . And as for the growing number of born-again-bikers age range 42 -45 -then you are absolutely right! they go out and buy the best money can buy  - shiny harleys, super fast sports bikes...and what happens? They crash! Look at the stats - the rise in biker crashes in the UK exactly parallels the rise in the number of bikes on the road over the same time period...and who has the highest rate of fatalities? You got it - the born-again-biker  Rich men and their toys  ...you are very right - its not for the faint-hearted 

Thats the great thing about motorcycles (and my original point) - its NOT a rich mans sport! You can pick up a cheap bike and be on the road and have lots of enjoyment out of it for very little cash. In Glasgow I formed a bike club for people like myself - we had no money (enough for gas and beer), cheap bikes and cheap gear. Good times ever week on our nightly rides and weekends were spent riding around the Highlands! We were all students i.e. no money. 

cheers
Andy

[feliz]

It's the free market system and I don't always understand it, why can you buy lumber from Canada cheaper nearly everywhere else in the world than you can buy it here?

It's not only Europe that gets screwed, I live right on the US border and most cars and bikes are approx 30% cheaper a few kilos away in the US. Americans also pay lower taxes than nearly everywhere else on earth and they nearly give gas away there.

I've bought three 750s in the last couple years and in every case I figure I paid double what I would have south of the border. We have the last laugh though, we get more snow than they do.....oh wait, that means a shorter riding season!!