Author Topic: Resistors.. necessary?  (Read 6065 times)

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Offline Cvillechopper

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Resistors.. necessary?
« on: September 13, 2005, 07:14:55 PM »
I just realized that I don't have resistor caps and am using D8EAs which I don't think are resistor plugs.  The draw backs I know of would possibly be higher temp combustion, i.e. overheating, lean burn, destroyed plugs, etc.  Anyone else running non-resistors and if so, any issues stemming from that?
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El Taco

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2005, 08:09:11 PM »
I really don't know, but I think I shall find out. Soon.

Offline Killer Canary

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2005, 08:19:03 PM »
Couple of days ago I removed the resistors and replaced them with solid copper, still with resistor plugs. Haven't noticed much difference either way.
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Offline oldbiker

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2005, 09:43:31 PM »
One of the main reasons for the fitting of resistor caps or leads was to cut down on radio interference caused by the ignition sparking. (Remember that the first radio transmission was done by connecting a spark gap between ground and an aerial wire) There should be little or no difference in the way the motor runs.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2005, 10:12:41 PM »
The resistors increase the duration of the spark as well as slowing the rise time of the spark. The former helps the mixture burn more completely, the later reduces interference in electronic equipment designed to receive energy radiated into the atmosphere.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2005, 01:51:57 AM »
Strictly speaking, a resistor presents opposition to the flow of electric current. It doesn't alter the waveform, and the resistance is independent from frequency, so the resistor shouldn't increase the duration of the spark or slow the rise time. On the contrary, it should decrease the duration of the spark

When the coil primary is energized the core is magnetized. As the breaker points open, the fall of magnetic flow creates an inducted voltage peak in the coil secondary winding. That high voltage peak is high enough to ionize the air between the spark plug gap, so the spark is created.

The air then behaves as a resistor itself. The current flows through the resistor cap, and part of the voltage is dropped there, so the actual voltage between the plug electrodes is lower. The resistor decreases the energy of the spark, that's out of doubt.

Otherwise, what would be the point of fitting low resistance coils? The lower the resistance of the circuit, the higher the voltage in the electrodes. The point is that, for a given mixture pressure, a given amount of energy in form of spark is necessary to ignite the mixture. Everything above it doesn't make sense (you can ignite a bucket of gasoline with a spark or with a lighter, the result will be the same. Will the bucket burn hotter or higher if you ignite it with the lighter?) That's the reason why it's hard to tell the difference between using resistor caps or not. Actually some plugs have the resistors built-in. But it is easy to tell. Get a handheld radio and tune any AM station (yes, AM, do you remember that?). Start your bike and get the radio near the plug wires. The interference is negligible in TV or FM. The reason for that is, as oldbiker said, that AM transmision rely on the same principle.


Raul

Offline SteveD CB500F

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2005, 03:52:52 AM »
Raul. True but surely only in a perfectly resistive circuit.  Your plug leads, caps and the plugs themselves will offer some capacitative impedence and the R/C circuit will act as a low pass filter --->> slowing the rise time and filtering high frequency (radio) harmonics.
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Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2005, 04:49:37 AM »
That's true. But the capacitive or inductive behaviour doesn't change wether you use resistors or not. I was talking about how using resistors or not using them should change the waveform. The rest of the circuit should be the same.

Raul

Online dusterdude

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2005, 06:03:47 AM »
fellas,i dont think we can really do james justice here until bob wessner chimes in on this....oh thats right this isnt a carb question.sorry ;D
mark
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2005, 06:10:23 AM »
I know less about electrical theory than I do carburetion..what's t-h-a-t tell ya?  ;D
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Online dusterdude

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2005, 06:16:03 AM »
gee,im not sure i should comment on that one.
mark
1972 k1 750
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1998 cbr600 f3

Offline SteveD CB500F

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2005, 06:27:19 AM »
If Bob's got inductive carbs - we've found his problem!
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Offline jotor

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2005, 06:28:33 AM »
One of the main reasons for the fitting of resistor caps or leads was to cut down on radio interference caused by the ignition sparking.

My dad was a ham radio operator AND we had a neighbor who's car put out a whole bunch of RFI when it ran.  Everytime he started it up we would get angry calls from people trying to listen to Fibber McGee and Molly.

 ::)
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2005, 06:44:15 AM »
Quote
If Bob's got inductive carbs - we've found his problem!

What's an inductive carb  ???
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline SteveD CB500F

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2005, 06:45:38 AM »
QED  8)
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Offline jotor

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2005, 06:48:29 AM »
Quote
If Bob's got inductive carbs - we've found his problem!

What's an inductive carb  ???

Works in conjunction with the deductive exaust.


He, he, he.  I'm going to get back to work now.
I'd rather ride a Yamaha than eat worms.


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Offline Robert

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2005, 11:37:21 AM »
Strictly speaking, a resistor presents opposition to the flow of electric current. It doesn't alter the waveform, and the resistance is independent from frequency, so the resistor shouldn't increase the duration of the spark or slow the rise time. On the contrary, it should decrease the duration of the spark


How I see it:
Time.
A) Take a battery (containing a certain amount of energy) and connect a bulb with high wattage (= low resistance) to it.
B) Take a battery (containing a certain amount of energy) and connect a bulb with low wattage (= high resistance) to it.
What will take longer to eat the energy of the batterie?. What will burn longer? B!
Energy used: Same for A & B. Energy = Watt multiplied with time. One Wattsecond is a Joule.

Of course A will burn brighter, but not as long. Just as your spark.
Does the spark has to be very bright: No.
The spark only has to ignite the tiny amount of the air/gas mixture surrounding the electrodes of the spark plug. This tiny amount of then burning mixture will ignite the rest of the mixture. It is of some importance that the spark has to last a certain time to make sure that this tiny amount of mixture is indeed burning. Also the air/gas mixture coming thru the intake valve is in motion, the longer the spark lasts, the more tiny amounts of mixture are visiting the electrodes to get ignited.

Quote
When the coil primary is energized the core is magnetized. As the breaker points open, the fall of magnetic flow creates an inducted voltage peak in the coil secondary winding. That high voltage peak is high enough to ionize the air between the spark plug gap, so the spark is created. The air then behaves as a resistor itself. The current flows through the resistor cap, and part of the voltage is dropped there, so the actual voltage between the plug electrodes is lower. The resistor decreases the energy of the spark, that's out of doubt.

How I see it:
The spark process can be seen as a two stage process.
1.) No spark yet (air not ionized yet): spark plug acts as capacitor, resistance is switched in parallel (practically no influence on voltage applied to electrodes of the spark plug, and no influence on the energy (no current flowing yet)) .

2.) sparking: ionized air/gas mixture acts as a resistor for the time (1-2 milliseconds) of sparking (as you said). But next to no energy lost due to the use of a 5K (noise supressing) resistor.
As it is first a very low resistance compared with the 'air/gas mixture-resistance'
and second the 5K resistor acts only as limiter, limitting the max amount of current that can flow within a certain time.



Quote
Otherwise, what would be the point of fitting low resistance coils? The lower the resistance of the circuit, the higher the voltage in the electrodes.

The resistance of the primary coil determines indirectly the amount of energy the coil can store.
E=½ LI²,
where L: Inductance of the primary coil, I: Current (dependent on the resistance of the primary coil)

Strong factors that are influencing the voltage applied to the electrodes of the spark plug are:

- time it takes to disrupt primary current (self inductance -> more than 12 Volts in the primary circuit created, a ignition coil is not just a simple transformator, while also not completely different from it)
- windings primary coil : windings secondary coil
- richness of the mixture (lambda)
- gap size of the electrodes
- pressure in the cylinder
- material and size of the electrodes (iridium or platinum electrodes-> small electrodes can be used -> less voltage required for the spark)
- polarity of the center electrode of the spark plug (negative voltage at center electrode -> less voltage required for the spark at higher temperatures, interestingly with our sohc: one of two spark plugs connected to a coil has to have a positive voltage.


THIS is what I think to know.
Feel free to destroy correct.  :)


« Last Edit: September 14, 2005, 11:46:11 AM by Robert »

Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2005, 01:08:48 PM »
Robert, I guess we learned from the same book because I agree with what you say.

Raul

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2005, 05:20:34 PM »
Strictly speaking, a resistor presents opposition to the flow of electric current. It doesn't alter the waveform, and the resistance is independent from frequency,

Only in basic DC circuits where inductive and capacitive reactance can be ignored.   You ignore the fact that there is a transmission line from the coil to the spark plug and that the resistor is part of a transmission line system that includes the impedance of the wire, the coils output impedance, as well as all the capacitance of the various components of the system. 
There are modern systems that install a coil right on top of the spark plug to eliminate this transmission line, it’s radiation effects, and still maintain high voltage potential at the spark gap.  But, these systems operate on different principles of voltage delivery and conversion rather than energy storage in the coil that the Kettering system does.

so the resistor shouldn't increase the duration of the spark or slow the rise time. On the contrary, it should decrease the duration of the spark

  You should review your transmission line theory. A series resistor does indeed alter waveforms and impulse response characteristics.  It reduces the rise time to reduce reflections (depending on the transmission line length and spreads the energy out over a longer duration of time. 
The waveform does not end when the spark gap begins to jump.  The electrical short that occurs, causes some energy to reflect back on the transmission line towards it’s source at a rate determined by the rise time of the signal and the impedance of the transmission line and source impedance of the original signal generator.

When the coil primary is energized, the core is magnetized. As the breaker points open, the fall of magnetic flow creates an inducted voltage peak in the coil secondary winding. That high voltage peak is high enough to ionize the air between the spark plug gap, so the spark is created.

I can't tell if there is a translation problem or if  you really don't have a thorough understanding of how this works.  Is this what your were trying to say?
In the Kettering system, as the stock SOHC4 has, the voltage across the spark gap only rises to the point where the ionization of the gasses occur between the electrodes.  This provides an electrical path across the gap and bleeds the energy from the collapsing field of the coil (due to points opening) through the transmission path (wires).  The voltage rises no further than that necessary to ionize the gap, as the short rapidly depletes the remaining energy stored in the coil to prevent further voltage rise.

The air then behaves as a resistor itself. The current flows through the resistor cap, and part of the voltage is dropped there, so the actual voltage between the plug electrodes is lower. The resistor decreases the energy of the spark, that's out of doubt.

Yes, the resistor does dissipate some energy based on the amount of current flowing through it.  IR squared, if you remember basic theory.  Care to guess how much current flows through the resistor?  It is very small and the reason why the plug cap resistors are of such low wattage and generate so little heat, it is nearly insignificant.  If you are trying to say that the voltage presented to the resistor is higher than what appears at the spark gap, that is true.  However, that voltage loss is directly related to the current flowing through the resistors.  And, as it is very small, so is the voltage loss through the resistor.  Resistors lose NO voltage when current does not pass through them.  Little current, little loss.

Otherwise, what would be the point of fitting low resistance coils?

Indeed, in the Kettering system there is no point, if that is the sole change to the system.  While there is the theoretical increase in voltage capability, the firing voltage of the spark remains the same.  Only if you change the gap distance or chamber conditions relating to how the ionization occurs in the spark gap, do you change the voltage at which it fires and dumps energy out of the coil.  Things like spark gap distance, upping the combustion pressures, or contents of the gasses can effect the ionization point, and thus the voltage needed to bridge the electrode gap.

The lower the resistance of the circuit, the higher the voltage in the electrodes.

False.  The voltage at the spark plug electrodes is determined by the ionization point, in the Kettering system.  Other ignition systems that don't rely on the coil to store energy behave differently.

The point is that, for a given mixture pressure, a given amount of energy in form of spark is necessary to ignite the mixture. Everything above it doesn't make sense (you can ignite a bucket of gasoline with a spark or with a lighter, the result will be the same. Will the bucket burn hotter or higher if you ignite it with the lighter?) That's the reason why it's hard to tell the difference between using resistor caps or not. Actually some plugs have the resistors built-in. But it is easy to tell. Get a handheld radio and tune any AM station (yes, AM, do you remember that?). Start your bike and get the radio near the plug wires. The interference is negligible in TV or FM. The reason for that is, as oldbiker said, that AM transmision rely on the same principle.

Raul

None of your  summation "point" seems to have any relation to your erroneous resistor arguments.  But, shockingly, I actually agree with most of the sentiment.

However, there are other factors involved in delivery voltage potential to spark plugs.
1. New plugs will fire at a lower voltage potential presented to them than old plugs.   If your delivery capacity has an upper limit to what it can generate, old plugs will begin to misfire.  For example, if a new plug will fire at 5000 volts, and your coil can develop 10000 volts max, then the plug will fire fine when it only develops 5000 volts before draining the coil.  But, the same plug at high mileage may require 10,500 volts to bridge its gap.  The coil limitation (and any inserted resistances) will cause misfiring of the plug.
2.  The gap distance at the spark plug initiates the flame travel for combustion.  A larger spark gap initiates a larger area of  initial combustion, resulting in a more complete and efficient burn of the chambered mixture.   This may be compared to starting a forest fire at one point or at several points.  More forest is consumed faster with a multipoint burn initiation.  However, larger spark gaps need a higher voltage to initiate than smaller ones.  And high energy or higher voltage capability coils enable the use of larger spark gaps over a longer period of use, and thus, more efficient engines.

I stand by my original post intended as a "lay person" summation of series resistor application in the SOHC4 ignition system.  If readers would rather believe your simplistic and shallow viewpoints, that’s their perogative.  No skin off my nose.  I shall keep the resistors in my stock ignition system for the benefits they provide, and advise others to do the same.

Y’all have a nice day.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2005, 06:55:01 PM by TwoTired »
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2005, 12:28:05 AM »
I can't tell if there is a translation problem or if  you really don't have a thorough understanding of how this works.  Is this what your were trying to say?


Yes sir, it must be a translation problem. Whatever I said that you don't agree with, please assume it is because of my poor english skill or by the low level of the spanish Technical Training and University, along with my custom of cheating on exams.


You have a nice day too


Raul

Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2005, 12:32:56 AM »
Quote
If Bob's got inductive carbs - we've found his problem!

What's an inductive carb  ???

Works in conjunction with the deductive exaust.


He, he, he.  I'm going to get back to work now.





BTW, did you everybody know that I'm planning to fit inductive sidecovers? They create a magnetic field that ionizes the surrounding air. That way the air particles enters the carbs in formation, helping the mix with the sprayed gasoline. I also plan to fit a capacitive gas petcock, that by adding its megafarads to the gasoline increase the octane. Of course, the only resistive part will be the disc brake, it takes a lot of resistance to stop that monster... ;D


Raul

Offline SteveD CB500F

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2005, 01:42:03 AM »
Lloyd, Robert and Raul.

"Bloody 'ell" as we say in England.

This takes me back to when I was an electronic design engineer with Racal (now Thales). I used to design military VHF communications systems and all this transmission line stuff was our day job!  Never thought of applying it to SOHC ignition systems though.

I feel a "Physics of SOHC Ignition Systems FAQ" coming on.

So, to summarise (summarize):

5k resistance is good for supressing interference but you shouldn't use resistive plugs, caps and wires at the same time (?)
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Online dusterdude

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2005, 06:06:35 AM »
ok guys this is from a very layperson,my understanding thru the years at least with old cars,was to have the least resistance between the coil and the plugs,escpecially when running points.does that sound correct to ya`ll.
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2005, 06:50:40 AM »

This takes me back to when I was an electronic design engineer with Racal (now Thales).



I have also worked with Racal Instruments measuring equipment. Rhode & Schwarz, HP, etc. I started commissioning GSM basestations, and part of the tasks was the acceptance, that is, measuring output power, and of course accepting the radiating system: Antennae, feeder cables, lightning arrestors, VSWR etc. In order to connect the PCM lines to the basestations most of the links were microwave, so we have also to set up the parabole, waveguide, pressure generators... It's sad to discover that everything I knew from transmission lines was wrong...  ;D


During my time in Nortel I worked mainly with fiber optics multiplexers, so I needed to know a little about reflexion, refraction, wavelenght, but I used to pretend I was the most skilled and always let the others do the job while I was lobbying trying to get a promotion or jack up my salary.


And today, I discover in a forum that all my assumptions, beliefs, creeds and knowledge were wrong!!! How many wasted years!!!!   HAHAHAHAHAHAHA ;D


Raul
« Last Edit: September 15, 2005, 06:53:28 AM by Raul CB750K1 »

eldar

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2005, 09:20:09 AM »
Well Raul, you are correct on how a coil works. Charge builds up while current is applied. When current is removed the charge falls rapidly inducing voltage in the secondary windings. Depending on how the secondary is wound will determine if the voltage is higher and amps lower or if voltage is lower with amps higher. This is also how ac transformers work. thats all a coil is, a transformer.

Here is some basic laws.

E=IxR   e=volts  I=amps   R=resistantance

r = E/I

I = E/R

Regardless, if you decrease resistance, you increase amps delivered to plugs.   Voltage alone will not create a strong enough spark unless you have tremendous amounts. Voltage is just pressure.  Amos act the same way except amps are the amount of current.

Voltage is used to push the amps along and combining the 2 will produce the best spark. 

With these old bikes, I still think that running no resistor will deliver a better spark. Period. If you are using points.

Most of us do not use radios while riding and no other electronic devices. Thus interferance is not an issue.

BUT I do not think a person will notice much of a difference wether or not they use the resistors UNLESS they have way to test such as a dyno. If you choose not to use a resistor, then gap the plugs a bit more to make use of the slightly stronger spark. At this point though, a person would be better off getting the new iridium plugs.

I will however also experiment because I believe that the stronger spark will make tuning a bit easier and  iwill hopefully know this weekend.