Author Topic: my first fishtail brake skid on a 750 (Read 5713 times)

mustangcar · « **on:** September 17, 2008, 11:50:57 AM »

was

super scarey thought that was the end for my bike and me,fkn #$%* pulls out of a parking spot about five yards in front of me i was doing like 35,fought that tail spin,think its the 404 Dunlop back tire that saved my ass any harder of a compound tire i would of lost it,felt like i was trying to land a 747 boeing, iv done one emergency stop on my Rebel with no fishtailing guess the lighter the bike having less engine weight in front the less chance the rear tire will fishtail, gotta ride even more cautious,,can't remember if i hit both the front and rear brakes happened so fast

Triffecpa · « **Reply #1 on:** September 17, 2008, 01:01:13 PM »

You really need to forget about the rear brake for awhile and just concentrate on using the front one to its maximum. The rear brake (even if it's working properly and you have a sticky rear tire) will only provide a small portion of the stopping power of the front one.

Not trying to preach, just trying to pass along some important safety info.

And glad to hear that you weren't hurt.

Try some emergency stops in a vacant parking lot until you can lock up the front wheel and not scare yourself silly (assuming that your bike will lock the front tire). Then get a stickier front tire...

Seriously though, if you can actually lock the front tire, then you're getting the max out of the front brake and reducing your stopping distances as much as possible. Once the tire locks, you do need to learn to quickly back off on the brake pressure though, because you will hit the ground in a big hurry with the front tire not turning.

Tracy

CrisPDuk · « **Reply #2 on:** September 17, 2008, 01:30:29 PM »

Scary

I often use the technique of jamming the back brake on and sliding my H100 sideways to scare any inobservant car drivers that pull out in front of me

At that thing's speeds you can usually spot them soon enough to be entertaining

ut the idea of doing the same on my 550, whether purposely or accidentally, is something I'd rather not be doing I think $:-\$

KingCustomCycles.com · « **Reply #3 on:** September 17, 2008, 01:58:28 PM »

Uh Huh, grabbing a big handful of front brake may stop you quicker under ideal surface conditions but one piece of pea gravel or sand and your ass is down. You will not have time to look at the ground in an emergency situation. Lock the rear and grab some front after that, if you can, and conditions warrant it. Locking the front tire? When was the last time you tried that on a modern sport bike? You will go over the bars in a heartbeat. Is this even "technical?"

eldar · « **Reply #4 on:** September 17, 2008, 02:02:27 PM »

Both are wrong. You lay on both at the same time. Sorry but in the time it takes to do the back, then the front, you have cost way too much time. That is the way to stop the fastest AND maintain the best control. It is called practice and experience.

Odge · « **Reply #5 on:** September 17, 2008, 02:17:58 PM »

Be careful "grabbing a handful" of front brake. I did that once at a stop sign with my 550 and hit an oil slick. I hit the ground so fast there was no chance to do anything and ended up with a broken arm. $:-\$ Hitting the rear brake too hard is common and it is easy to break the rear loose. I've stacked doing that too.

Anyway, I agree that a that a measured application of both the front and rear will bring you to a stop the fastest.

Triffecpa · « **Reply #6 on:** September 17, 2008, 02:38:04 PM »

I don't disagree that you need to use both brakes at the same time in order to reduce your stopping distances. I mentioned that he "forget about the rear brake for awhile" in an attempt to get him more used to the front brake. In my experience, if the rider is used to using the rear brake on the street, then they will rely too heavily on that brake in an emergency situation. And "grabbing a handful of front brake" on one of our bikes is not likely to put you over the front or stand the bike on its nose. If you can do either of those, then you have some serious brakes on your old scoot.

Certainly there are isolated instances where relying on your front brake will put you on the ground, but in an emergency, when you don't have time to think but simply to react, I would hazard a guess that you are much more likely to hit the on-coming car if you are relying primarily on the rear brake to stop your bike. And motorcycles are not that easy to tuck the front wheel on. It takes much more than a piece of pea gravel or a little bit of sand. Granted, those will effect the stopping distance and occasionally you can lock of the front wheel, but if the wheel locks, then you back off the front brake. However, you don't learn that skill over night and it doesn't come magically when you need it most. As was mentioned, it's all about practice. And chose a controlled environment (ie that vacant parking lot) for your place to practice.

However, there are a lot of folks that will swear by the rear brake. All that I have to say is that we will have to "agree to disagree" on this one. In my case, I upgrade my front brakes, use HH race compound pads and forget about my rear brake completely. Yes, I've hit the ground a couple of times, but I've never plowed into the "I didn't see you so I turned left" car driver or the "I missed my turn so I had to hit the brakes" car driver either.

Those impacts will definitely hurt more than the occaasional front end tuck.

Tracy

WFO · « **Reply #7 on:** September 17, 2008, 03:06:17 PM »

Too much front brake and you go over the bars or crab out and it's instantly over ( your down ) too much rear brake and you experience what the first poster did ( but he was able to control it ) try grabbing all front brake on a dirt road and you will see what i mean. Use both and yes the front brake applied correctly can help slow you down alot faster but you have to be careful sometimes you have to react fast so grabbing alot of front brake could be a bad thing.

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #8 on:** September 17, 2008, 03:28:01 PM »

Nah rubbish - have you guys even braked hard with a front brake?! Ideal way to brake as per the advanced driving instructor route is apply front brake first then rear straight after - note NOT at the same time. Going over the bars braking on a modern sports bike is impossible IF you know how to brake properly. You always let off slightly before the C of G goes too far so there's no way you go over - have you guys not seen rolling stoppies?

Race experience will prove that if you're using the front brake to the best of its ability or even approaching the best, the back is useless. How many racers have you seen on TV braking with the back wheel waving in the air?

Locking the front on a modern bike, let alone an old Honda will not cause you grief even with a "pea of gravel or sand". It has to be VERY sandy or gravelly to upset things. I braked hard but controlled on the Cronk-y-voddy straight in the IOM from 140mph to avoid a dumb ass bloke doing a U-turn in the middle of such a fast section. When we stopped, my mate behind said "Nice darkie at cronk-y-voddy". I didn't know what he was talking about - I braked damn hard on the front, back wheel lifted but it was beautifully in control and felt safe as houses.

We went back 2 hours later and the darkie from the front was 96 feet long on the road (yes we measured it!) and I sold the bike 3 years later with the groove cut in the radiator belly fairing from the front wheel where the forks had flexed so much, the front wheel had contacted the fairing. Oh and no it wasn't a 28mm bendy fork leg it was a big USD Showa on an SP5 888 Ducati.

The power is in the front - use it all unless the surface is a dirt track, lots of loose gravel or very wet and you're not running wet tyres. In those situations yes by all means use a little back brake too...if you go over the bars, you need to learn more about braking - it's the same knife edge as tyre grip at high revs or accelerating out of corners....

Go and look at club racers - the smooth guys use only the front, the guys who go into corners and the bike is upset and the rear is chattering use the back when they shouldn't touch it. They may get away with it and may even win but they are at a higher risk of crashing than the front only brakers in dry conditions.

One daft old git that went on a race school with me had ABS linked brakes on his modern road Honda - Pan European I think? He ignored the instruction and insisted using both brakes was the way to go. When it came to the afternoon session and a free for all track ride he shot off first...into the second corner, used his back brake and front and crashed. The numpty spent the rest of the afternoon watching the rest of us and we didn't touch the back brake.

Triffecpa - you're not wrong, man!

WFO · « **Reply #9 on:** September 17, 2008, 03:34:12 PM »

Hes not riding a club racer and yes i agree club racer will surely brake differenty than a normal street bike but this isn't the case here.

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #10 on:** September 17, 2008, 03:39:24 PM »

Why not?! A bike is a bike is a bike - it's only how you use it that differs and that is down to skill and experience.

As an example - I'm an average club racer but I do happen to own a well above average 1000cc V-twin. It didn't help me to any better placings even though I could stop quicker due to the better brakes.

In contrast Simon Beck took a stock, new CBR600 with lights, horn and number plates out of the crate and raced it in the production TT and recorded a 114mph lap in the process. It was the same bike you or I could buy but he was an awesome talent.

The point is, it doesn't matter whether you're street riding on a 38 year old CB750 or racign a modern superbike, if you ignore surface conditions, front brake is the best, hardest and safest way to stop, period - if you know how. If you add in the loose surface and poor surface adhesion, yes you should add the back into the equation.

Triffecpa · « **Reply #11 on:** September 17, 2008, 03:58:36 PM »

The primary goal in braking a motorcycle is to avoid something. If you can stop more quickly, then your chances of avoiding whatever it is, are greatly increased.

Now, you can ride your bike on the street only, at a moderate pace and rely heavily (or even entirely) upon the rear brake and you might be just fine.

However, this original discussion came up because of someone braking hard to avoid an emergency situation.

In that particular instance, stopping shorter is always better. Unless of course you managed to get rear ended by the inattentive car driver behind you, but that's a story for another day.

Tracy

eldar · « **Reply #12 on:** September 17, 2008, 04:35:39 PM »

Actually moonpie, while it might be different over there, here they instruct to use BOTH at the same time. When panic stopping, I have always done so and it works very well. Plus, this is STREET not track racing. Two totally different worlds.

bggann · « **Reply #13 on:** September 17, 2008, 05:11:55 PM »

When I used to teach motorcycle safety in the early 80's, we (I) always taught use both brakes and that 99% of your stop power comes from the front. My bike of choice in those classes was my CB900F SuperSport - nice stopping bike - it was one of the first with dual piston calipers on the front - dual disks.

In our classes - we'd have everybody sit on the side of the track (on bleachers if we had them), and I'd demo 30-0 and 60-0 stops, rear only, front only, both. On the 'front' only demo - my goal was to have the front tire howling.

Never washed out. Never came remotely close to going over the front (me or the bike).

There was virtually no difference between front only, and front+rear. Rear only - just slide right on by... usually feathering to keep the rear behind me.

30-0 - often I could stop in between 1 and 2 bike lengths. Used to have a copy of a news blip from 9 news in Denver of me doing this... Long since gone unfortunately.

------------
These techniques saved my butt last week. Riding the 400 to work, came around the corner at the bottom of the corner - say 50-55mph and a deer (mule) pulled out in front of me. Left - oh - maybe 15-20 feet of rear skid (very light cause most of the weight on the front). Stopped. Deer and me staring at each other over the bars. Only concern - was some bozo in a truck gunna run over my butt.

-----------
Sorry - I'm with the "use the front brake" crowd. And use it at EVERY stop - because then you are used to it. If you do not train those reflexes, your dead.

Bob

sparty · « **Reply #14 on:** September 17, 2008, 05:47:30 PM »

Quote from: mustangcar on September 17, 2008, 11:50:57 AM

was super scarey thought that was the end for my bike and me,fkn #$%* pulls out of a parking spot about five yards in front of me i was doing like 35,fought that tail spin,think its the 404 Dunlop back tire that saved my ass any harder of a compound tire i would of lost it,felt like i was trying to land a 747 boeing, iv done one emergency stop on my Rebel with no fishtailing guess the lighter the bike having less engine weight in front the less chance the rear tire will fishtail, gotta ride even more cautious,,can't remember if i hit both the front and rear brakes happened so fast

Been there brother. Too many times in the past. The 750 rear brake will lock up quickly, those shoes grab pretty well, especially in a "panic" stop. I am sure you used both brakes, but the bike's weight bias will be heaviest on the front wheel at that speed as the front fork compresses under load. The rear will be much lighter allowing the wheel to lock much quicker. I have learned to slid my butt back quickly in these situations to get more weight over the rear wheel and prevent too much of a lock-up. I know that it happens in a blink, but I have had practice unfortunately.

Sparty

mustangcar · « **Reply #15 on:** September 17, 2008, 05:48:49 PM »

thanks guys for the advice,,my front brake is only single caliper ,i use both at the same time usually,maybe i did use both,iam beeping my horn alot more ,having a loud exhaust is helpful ,just too many people on their cell phones not paying attention,i found out a few months ago a friend i knew from highschool was killed by a drunk guy who pulled out from a side parking

Brian G · « **Reply #16 on:** September 17, 2008, 06:08:04 PM »

One more vote for the front brake.

I was 'burnishing' the front pads on my 'new' 550K4 this morning - trying to get rid of a persistent squeal - and could make the front tire chirp with no indication of any loss of control (granted it was in a straight line, but if someone pulls out in front of you in a parking lot, you're probably in a straight line as well...). I rarely use the rear brake on my CBX (not even on my 900 foot gravel driveway). One or two fingers on the front brake lever are far more sensitive than tromping on the pedal with your boot and exerts enough force to make the tire howl if I want, Even the stone-age twin leading shoe drum brake on the front of my R3 produces far more stopping power than its back brake.

70% of your total available braking force comes from the front brake. One really needs to be comfortable using it under all conditions. Maybe just a touch on an 'iffy' surface. OTOH, if locking up your rear wheel gets you sideways, your front brake will do you no good at all....

Regards,
Brian

jason teamshralp · « **Reply #17 on:** September 18, 2008, 01:43:02 AM »

heard a story of a guy who was riding some newer sport bike, came across a deer locked it up, and speared the dear. He cut the deer in half as he hit it. He didn't even dump the bike, there was a photo of the bike afterwards and it was disgusting.

eldar · « **Reply #18 on:** September 18, 2008, 06:24:33 AM »

Sometimes there is nothing you can do. If there is not enough room, it does not matter how good your brakes are.

DarkRider · « **Reply #19 on:** September 18, 2008, 06:51:24 AM »

Like others said...it all comes down to practice. One thing i was taught long ago when riding motocross was not to be heavy on the front but thats an entirely different world compared to street riding. In a situation like that on a dirt bike it would be much like having an ultra sticky slick front tire just grab and launch you over the bars. But a street bike reacts much differently in the same situation. Practice applying the front brake at different levels of application. Dont go just grabbing a large handful of front right off the bat...yes you may stop in a hurry but you could easily dump it just as fast...Work on feathering the rear brake while applying the front this will bring you to a controlled stop with out upsetting the bikes balance.

eldar · « **Reply #20 on:** September 18, 2008, 08:39:30 AM »

It all comes down to practice.

gsgleason · « **Reply #21 on:** September 18, 2008, 08:54:10 AM »

The static coefficient of friction is always greater than its dynamic counterpart, meaning it takes more force to initiate movement between two surfaces than it takes to maintain that movement.

Therefore, any tire skidding along the ground will absorb (not sure if that's the right word) less energy than maximum braking without locking up the wheel.

As soon as my new (to me) bike is complete, I'm going to take it to a parking lot and practice maximum braking like they had us do in the ABATE motorcycle safety class. This is by far the heaviest bike I've owned or ridden, so I want to get as familiar as I can with it.

KingCustomCycles.com · « **Reply #22 on:** September 18, 2008, 09:24:37 AM »

I did some test riding on my commuter bike this morning. It seems when I need to stop quick, I let off throttle as I am pulling front brake and pull in the clutch with my left hand. At the same time, I am applying rear brake. I seem to modulate both and feel for slips in the front or rear. I have been riding 35 years and I never stopped to analyse what I did. All of the above takes less than 1 second to get going. The bike is a 1981 CB750F Super Sport with dual discs in front and a disk rear. She is a stopper when you want to.

bggann · « **Reply #23 on:** September 18, 2008, 10:02:55 AM »

I actually - in the city - ride with 2 fingers on the front brake handle, managing throttle with my ring/little fingers.

Course - I'm always scared when riding in the city - dodging the c'ars....

Bob

scondon · « **Reply #24 on:** September 18, 2008, 10:08:30 AM »

I do the same, King. At city speeds "grabbing a fistful" of front brake tends to make the front dive a bit much and I slide forward and lose a bit of control over any maneuvering options. Using both front and rear I tend to be back on the seat more and my wrists drop down on the grips to brace against the bars. Don't know why this is, it's just how my riding habits have developed. During emergency braking I can turn a few feet either direction and miss the "close" calls before coming to a complete stop. Grabbing all I can on the front brakes has me going in a straight line and praying I stop in time.

Disclaimer:Dual '82 calipers/disks up front may cause my experience to be different than those with single disk up front.

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Author Topic: my first fishtail brake skid on a 750 (Read 5713 times)

KingCustomCycles.com

eldar

eldar

bggann

eldar

eldar

KingCustomCycles.com

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