Topic: 65 MPG Ford!

[winnipeg550guy]

 
 There's one catch though, we won't be seeing it here in North America. I wonder how much pressure the oil companies put on Ford to keep it out of the US/Canadian market.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_37/b4099060491065.htm?han=rss_topStories_ssi_5

[Aaron J Williams]

 I wonder how much pressure the oil companies put on Ford to keep it out of the US/Canadian market.

If I had to guess, I would say none.

There are business reasons why we can't sell it in the U.S. The main one: The Fiesta ECOnetic runs on diesel. Taxes aimed at commercial trucks mean diesel costs anywhere from 40 cents to $1 more per gallon than gasoline.

The GOVERNMENT has priced this car out of the market by punitively taxing the trucking industry. It never ceases to amaze me that so many people blame the "big oil" industry for high prices when the Federal Government makes more money by far on a gallon of fuel than the oil companies do.

[edbikerii]

That's cute.  I'd drive one.  Too bad it runs on diesel.  Americans seem to have a hard time figuring out how to start diesels when it is cold out.  I've never owned a diesel, but my friend has a few Chevy diesel pickups and I've seen that there is a learning curve involved.

I've driven his trucks (and big diesels), but I'm a little concerned about "what I don't know".  Perhaps Ford could introduce such a car and accompany it with a diesel marketing/education campaign to increase demand?

 There's one catch though, we won't be seeing it here in North America. I wonder how much pressure the oil companies put on Ford to keep it out of the US/Canadian market.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_37/b4099060491065.htm?han=rss_topStories_ssi_5

[edbikerii]

Yes, it is a very popular mantra, "big oil".  Easy target for politicians to blame for everything that wrong, regardless of the facts.

 I wonder how much pressure the oil companies put on Ford to keep it out of the US/Canadian market.

If I had to guess, I would say none.

There are business reasons why we can't sell it in the U.S. The main one: The Fiesta ECOnetic runs on diesel. Taxes aimed at commercial trucks mean diesel costs anywhere from 40 cents to $1 more per gallon than gasoline.

The GOVERNMENT has priced this car out of the market by punitively taxing the trucking industry. It never ceases to amaze me that so many people blame the "big oil" industry for high prices when the Federal Government makes more money by far on a gallon of fuel than the oil companies do.

[dustyc]

Their "business reasons for not selling it" argument doesn't make sense to me.

Let's say diesel costst $5/gal, so 65 miles will cost you $5.  If your car gets 30 mpg(optimistic) and gas is $4/gal, 65 miles would cost $8.67 and at 20mpg, 65 miles would cost $13. 

So what are the business reason they're talking about?

[Aaron J Williams]

So what are the business reason they're talking about?

First of all, the engines are built in Britain, so labor costs are high. Plus the pound remains stronger than the greenback. At prevailing exchange rates, the Fiesta ECOnetic would sell for about $25,700 in the U.S. By contrast, the Prius typically goes for about $24,000. A $1,300 tax deduction available to buyers of new diesel cars could bring the price of the Fiesta to around $24,400. But Ford doesn't believe it could charge enough to make money on an imported ECOnetic.

Ford plans to make a gas-powered version of the Fiesta in Mexico for the U.S. So why not manufacture diesel engines there, too? Building a plant would cost at least $350 million at a time when Ford has been burning through more than $1 billion a month in cash reserves. Besides, the automaker would have to produce at least 350,000 engines a year to make such a venture profitable. "We just don't think North and South America would buy that many diesel cars," says Fields.

Only 3% of cars in the U.S. use diesel. "Americans see hybrids as the darling," says Global Insight auto analyst Philip Gott, "and diesel as old-tech." Two of the biggest enemies of diesel cars catching on are the taxes on diesel that make it so much more expensive than gasoline, and the lack of enough refining capacity, which keeps it in short supply.

Let's say diesel costst $5/gal, so 65 miles will cost you $5.  If your car gets 30 mpg(optimistic) and gas is $4/gal, 65 miles would cost $8.67 and at 20mpg, 65 miles would cost $13.

Just because you are intelligent enough to come to that conclusion doesn't mean the general public are. Most likely they see the prices on the gas station sign and never think any further about diesel cars. Add to that the environmentals' screaming about soot and portraying diesels as smelly, inefficient Gaia destroyers and the lemmings fall in line. Bottom line is that Ford doesn't think it would be profitable and they are in business to make a profit. I hope they keep on making good business decisions because we certainly don't need to bail out any more businesses than we already have.

[Bob Wessner]

So far, no one has mentioned the Fed. crash test criteria. Would it pass? Do they need to revisit these tests? Would most of us be willing to accept lower grades on the tests to drive something more efficient?

My wife and I drove a couple of Saturns at one time. They had plastic panels on the vertical body sections. I thought it was a great idea. Saturn discontinued them claiming fit and finish problems (though I never noticed them). I suspect this sort of design change would have beneficial weight reductions, but again, probably would negate some of "crash safety" associated with steel panels.

[edbikerii]

Good point.  Are those crash standards significantly lower in Europe?  If so, do they have higher mortality rates in auto accidents (per mile driven, of course)?

So far, no one has mentioned the Fed. crash test criteria. Would it pass? Do they need to revisit these tests? Would most of us be willing to accept lower grades on the tests to drive something more efficient?

My wife and I drove a couple of Saturns at one time. They had plastic panels on the vertical body sections. I thought it was a great idea. Saturn discontinued them claiming fit and finish problems (though I never noticed them). I suspect this sort of design change would have beneficial weight reductions, but again, probably would negate some of "crash safety" associated with steel panels.

[Bob Wessner]

Good point.  Are those crash standards significantly lower in Europe?  If so, do they have higher mortality rates in auto accidents (per mile driven, of course)?

No clue on either point. I do suspect that the Fed. regulations are intended to try and protect the occupants of a Mini Cooper against a Lincoln Navigator. 

[alltherightpills]

Good point.  Are those crash standards significantly lower in Europe?  If so, do they have higher mortality rates in auto accidents (per mile driven, of course)?

Here is the website of the Euro crash testing organization:

http://www.euroncap.com/home.aspx

Seems about the same as our system.

Here is a vid from Fifth Gear where they crash a 15 year old Volvo station wagon into a new Renault with a 5 star rating from Euro NCAP at 40 mph:

[edbikerii]

Thanks for those technical details on modern turbos.  Sounds like you're pretty involved in diesel engineering.

May not meet EPA07 emission standards. All diesel engines now have a diesel particulate filter (DPF) that collects the soot and burns it off or "regenerates" itself by heating the soot to a very high temperature. The reminents of the soot (ash) is collected and contained in the DPF. Once full, the DPF is exchanged for a remanufactured (cleaned and restored) unit.

The exaust temps from a DPF are so high during regeneration that they will set fire to paper, wood, buildings, grass etc. There is (in most vehicles) a DPF inhibit swith to prevent the unit from regenerating at an inappropriate time, such as indoors.

Nox levels were cut back in 2003 (EPA03) with the introduction of Cooled EGR systems (CEGR). EGR valves with an EGR cooler to lower the temperature before reintroduction into the air intake stream.

The popular belief that diesels are dirty, smelly, loud machines that don't start in the cold is outdated. Glow plugs have been replaced with intake air heaters. Mechanical injection pumps have been replaced with electronicly controlled unit injectors that eliminate most of the starting and smoking issues. The "old school" diesel cars that most are scared of were almost all naturally asperated. I doubt you can find a non turbo diesel nowdays.

Turbo technology has also evolved. Turbo lag has been reduced with the introduction of variable geometry turbos. These turbos also help with starting by increasing backpressure to help hold the heat in the engine during cold start ups.

[martino1972]

i got a 1993 vw passat 1.9 turbo diesel,i turned the injection pump down abit,still lot's of power and 60 mpg..!!!!!!!
so,im not waiting for a ford....

[edbikerii]

Won't that lean it out and burn exhaust valves eventually?

i got a 1993 vw passat 1.9 turbo diesel,i turned the injection pump down abit,still lot's of power and 60 mpg..!!!!!!!
so,im not waiting for a ford....

[martino1972]

cant go too lean,but a diesel can handle lean better then a gas engine......

[tramp]

right now you can't find a small diesel car in the u.s.
everyone is buying them off the shelves
then ford wonders why thier going broke

[BobbyR]

You guys have to read down a bit:

TOO PRICEY TO IMPORT
First of all, the engines are built in Britain, so labor costs are high. Plus the pound remains stronger than the greenback. At prevailing exchange rates, the Fiesta ECOnetic would sell for about $25,700 in the U.S. By contrast, the Prius typically goes for about $24,000. A $1,300 tax deduction available to buyers of new diesel cars could bring the price of the Fiesta to around $24,400. But Ford doesn't believe it could charge enough to make money on an imported ECOnetic.

It is the Brits fault with their free healthcare and the like.

[DammitDan]

I think it's more our fault with our weak economy and irresponsible financial sector.

[ColinMc]

I have an old Mercedes 300D i'm converting to use veggie oil

[edbikerii]

Honda Fit MSRP is $14,550.  Sure it only gets 28mpg city/35mpg highway, but the extra $10,000 will buy a lot of gas.  I think the Ford is better looking, though.

Why the heck do they manufacture that engine in Britain?  Are they nuts?  They could never compete here with a price tag like that.