Topic: my first fishtail brake skid on a 750

[lordmoonpie]

Actually moonpie, while it might be different over there, here they instruct to use BOTH at the same time. When panic stopping, I have always done so and it works very well. Plus, this is STREET not track racing. Two totally different worlds.

Errr, yes - the example I gave of the Cronk-y-voddy straight was an open road not a race, kerbs, cambers, dirt and other stuff. Probably narrower than your average back road in the US of A. the physics of it clearly points to a predominance of front over back. Both together is conservatism. Front is the  most powerful, period.

The problem is, track racing is confused as a different skill, it's not, it's a greater refinement and that's all. If you want to ride the road with less skill and less refinement then hey that's cool - it's your hide after all.

Dive from the front is all part of the physics - that's why we ride motorcycles and not pushbikes with rigid suspension where the back brake is king. if you brake hard on the front on a motorbike and you lose control because of body position, you don't know how to brake hard, simple. You should use everything God gave you from the balls of your feet to your knees to grip the tank and so on...

When I was learning, a guy in the classroom said "I can buy a helmet for 30 pounds or a helmet for 300 pounds - which should I buy?" The instructor said "Son, if you've got a £30 head, buy a £30 helmet" and so it goes with most of the rest of riding. If you're £30 of braking skill then good luck to you - I'm learning more about riding every day  20 years on and I already KNOW that braking is best with  front only. Why would you not use the experiences of a god given talent like Rossi (or Hayden for your side of the pond) to better inform your riding!? Those guys have the rear waving in the air - it's irrrelevamt in tru hard braking situations.

What have you got to lose other than your enjoyment, your health, your life?!

Your call - I know what works....hey - going out on a limb, what does Keith Code say??

[speedy gonzalais]

how you brake depends on the road surface and conditions it takes a while to learn different ways of braking but ur get there in the end, i find on dry tarmac the front brake is the best and wet tarmac a bit of both on gravel type surface rear brakes best on ice go very slow and try not to brake at all an so on

[speedy gonzalais]

how you brake depends on the road surface and conditions it takes a while to learn different ways of braking but ur get there in the end, i find on dry tarmac the front brake is the best and wet tarmac a bit of both on gravel type surface rear brakes best on ice go very slow and try not to brake at all an so on

Its a skill in other words

[eldar]

Pie, you talk about racers. We are not racers. You are WRONG. You WILL stop faster with BOTH brakes than just one. It is a FACT. You cannot even begin to compare a road racer with an average motorcycle. Suspension is tuned for a certain track, tire compounds are carefully matched and numerous other things are tuned for a certain track. None of use tune a bike for a certain part of the road. We use an all around setup to cover a variety of conditions. So there is NO WAY you can compare a racer to a regular biker. Even if they ride on the same road as we do, when they race, the surface is carefully groomed, on that you can bet.

You will never stop better with just the front brake as you would with both, on a street surface.

[cafe750]

 So far, I've seen a subject that's far more volatile than an oil thread. 

 Whatever I'm riding,in an emergency stop, I've got full pressure on the front brake, gripping the tank with my knees, looking for an escape route, and downshifting so that I can "squirt" the bike into said escape route. I've also got light pressure on the rear brake, to "settle" the bike and I've got two fingers covering the  clutch lever, so if I have to pull it in, I can. Practice has made that whole conglomeration of procedures an instinctive act, in an emergency.

Noone has mentioned our bikes lack of brakes in the rain, (in stock configuration) and periodically dragging the front brake to help get some heat into the rotor, so that it's useful for stopping...

When I'm playing in the canyons, only the front brake gets used 99% of the time, and I've got at least one knee locked hard into the tank while cornering. God gave us those knees to grip the tank. Most of my body weight is also over the tank, to help load the front wheel, and I'm on the balls of my feet, for better feel and control....

That's my take on stopping, and going, that works for me. Now I'm going to put my helmet on, and hide...

Oh, The rear brake is useless when the rear wheel is off the ground...but that's another subject...

[FunJimmy]

I’m with Pie! I ride hard on several bikes from my CB550 to an RC51 and agree that the front rules. Sure a balance of front and rear will probably provide measurably better results in a controlled environment but you forgot body position. If you are hard on it you should be riding on the balls of your feet and hanging off the bike. Your toes need to be up and not dragging the ground. That makes it difficult to apply rear brakes. Fronts are all you need baby, and right to the apex! That goes for street or track riding.

Better yet, come for some mountain bike riding in the wet west coast on Canada. How about a 28 pound mountain bike with 4 piston hydraulic disc brakes and a 200mm floating rotor. That’s up front! Think you can’t stop on dirt, rocks and roots fast with the fronts? You better get used to front brakes is this situation or you’re going in for surgery.

Time for a track day or two I’d suggest. Experience makes the difference.

FJ

[speedy gonzalais]

its all about weight displacment when you brake most of the weight is at the front of the bike giving the front tyre 75% give or take more grip than the rear!

[lordmoonpie]

Pie, you talk about racers. We are not racers. You are WRONG. You WILL stop faster with BOTH brakes than just one. It is a FACT. You cannot even begin to compare a road racer with an average motorcycle. Suspension is tuned for a certain track, tire compounds are carefully matched and numerous other things are tuned for a certain track. None of use tune a bike for a certain part of the road. We use an all around setup to cover a variety of conditions. So there is NO WAY you can compare a racer to a regular biker. Even if they ride on the same road as we do, when they race, the surface is carefully groomed, on that you can bet.

You will never stop better with just the front brake as you would with both, on a street surface.

Nope - I am not wrong and yes you will stop on a street surface with front alone in the shortest possible distance. We're not talking about anything other than a tarmac road here and I'm not talking about racing in the experiences I recorded above, it was all just me on a bike on a public road.

Read Dids last post. When you brake on the road using the front to the best of its ability, the weight transfers to the front. A good solid braking maneouvre might make the bias 75% front, a hard braking attempt on the road by a road rider with the skill to control the braking can still lift the back wheel clean off or if you like transfer 100% to the front. Yes this is the physical extreme but the pure basic physics is that if the back wheel is not on the floor it cannot possibly add to the stopping of the bike. And don't give me any guff about not doing this on bikes from the 70s, I can lift the back wheel two feet in the air on my black bomber and I'm 215 lbs!

No I'm not talking about racers either, I'm an average road rider and I can brake much harder and stop quicker with the front alone. The use of both brakes is necessary only where the road surface conditions are not dry or the surface is broken/covered with debris. On a normal road with a normal bike, front is all you need.

Go try it Eldar this weekend - brake at a marker with both and then brake at the same marker with front only. Providing you have the skill to brake to the best of the front brake's ability (yes, hard braking IS a skill), you won't stop any quicker with both applied because the back will be taken out of the equation - the best you will do is stop the same place twice.

Look at your argument above - "you can stop faster with both brakes". If that was indeed true and I was wrong, racers WOULD use both brakes as they want to stop as quick as possible so they can stay on the gas longer and get back on it quicker. But it isn't true and I am most certainly not wrong and that's why they use the front for stopping and the back for backing the bike in and wet weather.

Now, if what you're telling me is that you need to use both brakes because in good road conditions you don't have the skill to get the most out of the front brake alone, you're quite right to use both and stay safe. Personally I have the skill... 

[eldar]

oie, quite the assumptions you make on my skill. Just cause you may be older does not make you more experienced. I have not ridden on a tract. You have to have one in order to do it BUT I have ridden for years in dirt. And not some groomed surface. I am talking about foothills of mountains. The whole mountain bike thing funjimmy describe might work on a bicycle but NOT a motorcycle, which the last time I checked, is much heavier.

I have also done a small amount of local motocross and I can tell you that if you only use front, you will go down. It takes measured amounts of both to keep going. Funny thing is that the same applies to street. Now not EVERY situation will call for both brakes, Some for front and some for rear. But in a straight line, Your front provides about 75% of your stopping power, I guess for you the rest must be a magical force, but for the rest of us, the rear provide the other 25.

Is it a mark of experience to only use the front? Or is it a mark of THINKING you are experienced enough to only use the front?

I HAVE tested both ways.Braking with BOTH has ALWAYS stopped faster than just the front. Maybe since I only have 1 front, maybe that is different but even on the couple of dually fronts I have ridden, I always notice the benefits of a rear brake. Maybe THAT is the true test of experience.

Also as for mentioning track days, again, STREET, not track. Same basic surface BUT a track is NOT subject to the forces of everyday traffic with large dump trucks and cement trucks rolling over it every day.

But you worship whatever racer you want. I will do my thing. I have never crashed. DO I ride balls out? No, I have 2 young kids and I value them more than some short rush. Anyone that places their rushes over their children, should not have kids. I am content to wait till I am in my 40s to do things like that. DO I go slow? No I rarely am at the speed limit on ANY road but I also will not push things to their edge. I did that before I had kids, I will wait till they are grown up. Does that make me suddenly inexperienced? We then all I can say is you have no order of priorities and do not have the life experience that is most important.

Cafe750, the rear brake IS useful in the air. Of course that goes into dirtbike territory. Lets just say it is a gyro style effect.

[cafe750]

Eldar...we were talking street bikes...dirt's a completely different game, with totally different rules. I mean, you dont stick your feet out on the street...and yes, on a dirtbike, flying through the air, the rear brake does work, but your front is off the ground too...

[eldar]

Oh I know, I was referring to during a jump! I think that was the funnest part about riding dirt! It was amazing how you can control the pitch of the bike by using the brakes and throttle.

On topic a little bit. I have done a lot of looking and so far everything I have found says practice.

so far ONLY european sites say no rear brake and so far, it has been only 1.
All the rest say to use BOTH brakes however; none can completely agree on the order of applying the brakes. Some say to do rear first, some say to do the front first and some say both at the same time. But all so far have said that BOTH brakes work better than just 1, even if it is the front.

Some sources so far.
http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/streetsurvival/advanced_braking/index.html
http://www.ehow.com/how_2159713_stop-motorcycle-emergency.html
http://hubpages.com/hub/Improve_your_stopping_on_your_motorrcycle
http://www.whybike.com/motorcycle232.htm
http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/streetsurvival/0608_crup_effective_braking/index.html

[FunJimmy]

Holster your egos Top Gun! And put down those mud pies. Obviously we can all site examples to support our opinions. Fact of the matter is “two brakes are better than one” providing both wheels are in contact with the ground. Basis physics will tell you that!

With these 30 year old machines, unless you just drove over a cliff both wheels will be in contact with the ground 100 percent of the time, so both will stop you faster and in a shorter distance that just fronts.

When I took delivery of my CB550F the back drum brakes actually worked better that the front disc. Was it in need of attention? Absolutely. Did I do something about the strength of my front braking?  Sure, but not everybody has, can or will.

Practice, experience and knowing the limits of your bike are essential skills to riding a long long time. I try to include at least one track day a year in my riding schedule to develop a comfort level that I hopefully won’t ever need on the street. The knowledge that I’ve gained riding and learning from the track day crowd has already helped me to avoid emergency situations. I’m more comfortable and confident on my bike as a result of that experience and you can’t push to those limits on the street.

But you worship whatever racer you want. I will do my thing. I have never crashed.

There are only two kinds of riders. Those who have crashed and those who are going to!

FJ

[goon 1492]

Whew man this thread gettin' with it, I just wanted to add a few notes for ya'll brakin' is simple 70% front 30% rear thats the feel ya want. Now I can say this I have been ridin dirt and street for 15 years and we all know the rules all go right out the window in the panic moment, hell the first time I hit my k6's brakes too hard on the loose gravel the front kicked straight to the right just because i was leaning a little to the left when it all happened, luckily I have the reflexes of three cats and immedietly let off the brake and got it back. I can also testify to riding bicycles since i was three years old and am a master of the skid out, you see the pro's do it all the time in crazy action movies so it is so possible that arguing over it seems kinda silly  +1 funjimmy also there are truly two kinds of riders and you said it brother. I can't count how many times I dumped my bikes in the years of learning all while my neighbors had some good laughs from it too, but that's how you learn, take care ya'll 

[eldar]

Oh I crashed on dirt But I disagree. There are riders who have never been down. It is a commonly held belief but the fact is, not everyone will go down on their bikes. The last time I had been down, I was 12, almost 1/3 of my current age. It was off a 20 some foot high jump with the front tire hitting a rock on landing. A rock the size of a softball NOT embedded into the ground. Sorry but even rossi would go over on that, if he rode dirt.

[lordmoonpie]

Oh I know, I was referring to during a jump! I think that was the funnest part about riding dirt! It was amazing how you can control the pitch of the bike by using the brakes and throttle.

On topic a little bit. I have done a lot of looking and so far everything I have found says practice.

so far ONLY european sites say no rear brake and so far, it has been only 1.
All the rest say to use BOTH brakes however; none can completely agree on the order of applying the brakes. Some say to do rear first, some say to do the front first and some say both at the same time. But all so far have said that BOTH brakes work better than just 1, even if it is the front.

Some sources so far.
http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/streetsurvival/advanced_braking/index.html
http://www.ehow.com/how_2159713_stop-motorcycle-emergency.html
http://hubpages.com/hub/Improve_your_stopping_on_your_motorrcycle
http://www.whybike.com/motorcycle232.htm
http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/streetsurvival/0608_crup_effective_braking/index.html

Hey I never made assumptions about your skill - it was you who said ordinary rider not racer. Yep - everything you say is true for crossers and dirt track, you're dead right and it all applies the same on dodgy surfaces and less than good roads, I'm with you. BUT! On a plain old common all garden road with no surface adhesion issues like rain, cement, diesel or any other spillage, front is the most powerful brake - lets' face it, if it wasn't, you couldn't lift the back off the floor.

As for websites - what did you expect them to say other than the thing that is going to be safest in the majority of situations? They're not going to say use the front only because the first idiot who does so on a gravelly road and dumps it will sue them out of town.

We're not talking about effective braking here it was the BEST stopping power and the plain old physics you can't escape from is that if the front is powerful enough to lift the back without locking, the back is useless and the front is by definition the most powerful way of stopping. Yes you can use both and go for the 75/25 split for ultimate calm control and feel and that's all good. The point is that in gaining the calm control, feel and safety you will sacrifice a few yards.

I actually don't think we're really disagreeing here but we are talking about different contexts (dirty roads vs plain normal roads) (safe breaking vs shortest stopping distance) and the assumption that both wheels are always in contact with the ground. Plus there are other factors like saftey, driven by your role as a parent and I respect that. Thank god we're not all the same though so it's good that I do it my way and believe it's the best and you do it your way and believe it's the best and long may we remain different!

I like the idea that you're sooo much younger than me too. Last time I checked I wasn't a pensioner just yet but it did make me laugh

Oh and yes of course I've crashed. I used to race regularly and all racers go through a crashing spell before they get really fast (or give up becasue crashing hurts too much) or they're not trying to find the limits. Both times on the brakes in the wet but one at 20mph and one at 110mph. I didn't make the same mistake in the same track positions again. To find the limit you have to cross it and that's not a good thing for road riding for sure but is what racing is all about.

So Eldar, I think we're both right and we're never gonna agree....what oil do you use in your bike then?! 

[speedy gonzalais]

i think what were all getting at is both brakes are best but you need to rely on the front and about both wheels being firmly on the ground they usually are firmly on the ground but its the weight that really matters and when braking the weight shifts to the front giving that tire the most grip you can apply a bit of pressure to the rear brake but not to much as the bike will skid and braking its self is a skill that needs to be learnt by trial and error it can take weeks or years to master depending on your reflexes and learning ability also if your new to these old bikes and usually ride modern bikes then you just wont have the skill to keep them under control they weigh more have obsolete breaks and don't handle quite as well. And finding your limit is gonna hurt now and again and as mentioned might even kill you but theres probably more chance of some dumb ass in a car doing that.