Author Topic: FUEL LEAK / 1974 CB550  (Read 3875 times)

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shon

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FUEL LEAK / 1974 CB550
« on: September 25, 2008, 08:46:58 AM »
I rolled my bike off of my driveway this morning and noticed some fluid on the ground.  It was clear so I knew it wasn't oil (my oil is black and need changing).  I rode 4 blocks to work and and looked things over in the parking garage.  There was fuel dripping off the bottom of the carbs.  I shut the petcock off and the dripping seemed to slow.

Any thoughts?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 10:58:10 AM by shon »

Offline bryanj

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Re: FUEL LEAK / 1975 CB550
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2008, 09:07:42 AM »
Float setting/needle valves
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

shon

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Re: FUEL LEAK / 1975 CB550
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2008, 09:15:59 AM »
So when I turn the petcock back on it starts leaking again.  I don't think the fuel is actually coming from the carbs, but maybe from where the fuel line comes in and then running along the outside of the carbs to the bottom and off.  Does that make sense at all?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 09:21:31 AM by shon »

Offline bryanj

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Re: FUEL LEAK / 1975 CB550
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2008, 10:14:51 AM »
Yes but NEVER seen it happen, if the floats and or float needles aint right when you turn on the fuel it will contiue to fill the float bowl and leak
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

shon

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Re: FUEL LEAK / 1975 CB550
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2008, 10:46:43 AM »
Ok, so this is an adjustment I may just need to do on the culprit carb?  I know nothing about carbs but am going to learn a bunch I suppose.  Is there a good carb resource that you know of?

Thanks!!

apoji187

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Re: FUEL LEAK / 1975 CB550
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2008, 09:38:11 PM »
you might have a float thats hung up, or a bit of doo-doo in the needle valve seat.
tap the offending carb bowl with a screw driver to loosen it up. If it still leaks after that, you'll have to crack them open.

Either way, you should plan on opening them up and sorting them out.

shon

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Re: FUEL LEAK / 1975 CB550
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2008, 06:26:14 AM »
Ok, thanks for that.

So I am guessing due to the need for syncing, if I crack one open I may as well plan on cracking them all open and doing a cleaning/rebuild (whatever is necessary)?  Is this the correct course of action?  If so, do you recommend I get the clymer manual?  I have never done any carb work.

Thanks! 

Offline manjisann

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Re: FUEL LEAK / 1975 CB550
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2008, 06:39:25 AM »
The clymers are great for general info, and as a starting point, but they definately won't tell you everything you need to know. Another possibility for the leak is the float bowl rings. The little rubber rings break down over time. Also +1 to the above suggestions for possible issues. I ended up replacing the seats and needles in all mine. Over time the little springs that are in the needles weaken and contribute to the problem.

Brandon.
Sure it's for sale! How much you ask?? Well, how much are you willing to pay??? Now triple it, that's the price!

1973 CB500 K2 - Sold the bike and bought a Mig, Miss the bike, Love the Mig :D
1980 CB650 Custom
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Trip and General Ramblings blog: manjisann.blogspot.com

shon

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Re: FUEL LEAK / 1975 CB550
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2008, 06:51:55 AM »
Thanks Brandon, so do you recommend replacing each possible piece of the puzzle one at a time and seeing if it fixes the leak, or should I just plan on doing a rebuild this winter and replace everything?  Can I remove one carb and just try to fix it?  And if so I have to resync when I am done right?  I guess I will need to purchase a sync tool.  Do you have any advice about purchasing a sync tool?

Thanks!

Offline Caaveman82

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Re: FUEL LEAK / 1975 CB550
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2008, 08:08:23 AM »
     Carbs a bastards man, fortunatly they are fairly easy to disassemble/reassemble. Take them off. Lay out a towel and as you take each one apart make a row of parts for each carb in the order they came out. Get like two cans of carb cleaner, two big ones, the cheap stuff works as good as the expensive stuff so get the house brand. Get a little tin or a glass or mug you don't care about. Also, trust me on this, wear saftey goggles. You don't want that crap in your eye. It stings worse than getting a metal shaving in there.

     Any way take your glass, tin, mug or what have you and fill it about 3/4 of the way full. Take all the parts from one row and throw them in. Let it sit for a half an hour or so. Get some rags and wipe them off after that. In the meantime while you wait you can douse the carbs with the cleaner, wait for it to evaporate, spray again. Repeat this untill you can wipe off most of the gunk. There will be gunk.

     The reason for doing one set of parts at a time is so you can keep the order straight. After you have cleaned them just put them back together and see what happens first. Before you start rebuilding them or buying a sync set or what have you just give them a real good cleaning.

     I was having the same problem and it turned out I had some gunk under the small metal piece that holds the floats and that made it leak. Cleaned them out and it was right as rain.

     That's my opinion.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 08:09:56 AM by Caaveman82 »
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shon

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Re: FUEL LEAK / 1975 CB550
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2008, 08:59:57 AM »
Ok, so there is a big difference between disassembly/reassembly and rebuilding.  I can actually take them apart, clean, and put them back together without the need for re syncing.

That is what you are telling me, right?

So what does rebuilding entail?

Offline manjisann

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Re: FUEL LEAK / 1975 CB550
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2008, 10:10:20 AM »
Quote
Ok, so there is a big difference between disassembly/reassembly and rebuilding.

Yes and no. Carbs seem very scary at first, but if you take it slow and are very methodical, you will be just fine. I will have to admit, I've only taken mine off , removed the bowls, and replaced the float needle and seat. From what I have read, unless your carbs are very worn, or are corroded, a simple cleaning should be fine.

While you have them off, I suggest changing out the fuel lines as well, unless yours are pretty new. Also, if you want, put some inline filters in. At this point, I should admit that my bike is a 73 cb500, but my understanding is the bikes are basically the same.  Is your bike the F or the K1 model? I don't think it will make a difference, I looked at the exploded diagrams of the two carbs and they look basically the same. Kinda a basic step by step from what I remember. Also, a digital camera is awesome to take pics with as you go along, so when it comes time to put it back together, you can see how it was if you can't quite remember. This isn't so much fun you want to do it more often than necissary ;D

1) Remove fuel tank from bike. Sounds obvious, but be sure the petcock is in the off position. Set it on top of like a 5 gallon bucket so the petcock won't be damaged. Make sure no one bumps it off.  If a little gas leaks out that is kinda normal, remember, the petcock bowl is gonna have some gas in it.  But if you get more gas leaking out that a tablespoon or so, check to see if the petcock is leaking by emptying the petcock bowl and letting it sit overnight. I know on mine, the stupid little washers that held it to the tank were leaking and once I replaced them, no more leaking petcock.

2. Remove the carbs from the bike. I am hoping someone else will chime in with a better way to do this, cause I hate this part. The way I do it is, loosen all the clamps around the airbox side, and the ones on the carb side of the intake boots. It isn't necissary to remove the intake boots from the engine. At this point, I can't completely remember, but if the boots at the airbox aren't too stiff, take them off that end first by pushing each one off one at a time. the pull it out of the intake boots. This part always involves a lot of brute strength and cursing for me, so I can't help but thinking there has to be an easier way to do it. Anyone else have one??

3. Once you have them off, its fairly simple from here. If you haven't already done so, drain each float bowl. If you want, you can do it in a glass jar, one by one, to see if any crud comes out. This could help you figure out which one of the carbs is giving you problems. Once you have drained them, remove the 4 screws holding the float bowl on, and gently pull it off. Be careful not to twist it, as the clearance between it and the floats isn't very much, but it should come off very easily.

4. There is a little clip thingy that you kinda spin to take it off.

5. Next, remove the little retaining pin that holds the float to the carb. If it is difficult to get it to slip out trying one direction, try the other direction. Remember which way it came out and put it back the reverse way. Also, be sure to pay attention to which direction your float is in, as my understanding is these can be put in upside down. Depending on what your float is made of, you may need to replace it. Mine were made of a black foam, so they were ok, but I think some are just like toilet floats and are plastic boxes. If fuel can get into the plastic box, it will cause it to stay down even though the the bowl is full. If that is the case, you may need to replace it. Not sure if you can repair those, as I have no real experience with them.

6. Once the float is off, you can remove the float needle. Again, be sure to note how the needle is in the seat, as it is very easy to put in upside down. The little springy part is on the bottom so the float tab can push against it. Once the needle is out, remove the Phillips (at least on mine they were) screw holding the seat collar and remove it. Be sure to note its orientation, as this is also easy to put in upside down, and that will allow the seat to move which would cause leaking.

7. Once the retaining collar has been removed you can remove the seat. On mine I used a clean pair of pliars and firmly grabbed the seat and pulled it out. Mine wasn't really stuck in, and it didn't deform the old seat any. If you are having difficulty getting it out with firm pressure, something may be wrong, don't go yanking on it as you could damage the part where the seat sits.

8. Once you have the seat out, spray carb cleaner in there to clean the area out. Go ahead and spray cleaner through the other orfices in there until it comes out clean. Once you are satisfied it is clean (which it probably isn't but unless you have had problems with the bike not running right, you are probably ok) go ahead and put the new seat in and just reverse these instructions.

9. Now do the next carb. I suggest doing one at a time, as you don't want to mix parts from the different carbs up. When you go to put the float bowls back on, if your gasket is a little round rubber thing, to get it to stay in, put a fine bead of gasket sealer in the little groove in the bowl. Wipe it so it is flush with the edge of the groove and make sure none of it ends up in the bowl or else you may be doing this all over again when it clogs up a jet. Let it dry till its tacky and push the ring in that. This will keep the ring from popping out and getting pinched. Once you have the bowl back on, just look all the way around it to ensure this silly little ring didn't some how come out a bit and get pinched. It has happened to me a couple times and its annoying.

I don't have any mechanical training (unless you count my Jr High small engines class way back in the day, which I don't), but I am good with a wrench, so if I can do it, most people should be. With this forum, you will be fine. Don't let these instructions scare you, if you take a bit of time and record how parts relate to eachother, this is really pretty easy. Just be aware its gonna take several hours your first time. The upside is, the next time you have to get into your carbs, it will be a cinch and you will be a lot more confident.

Also, if you do decide to replace the fuel lines, let me know and I'll try and give you some detailed instructions there, as theres a couple things you will want to pay attention to, but again, just takes time.

Quote
I can actually take them apart, clean, and put them back together without the need for re syncing.

I did what I have given you instructions on after I had a mechanic sync my carbs ( :-[ I don't have the carb sync gauges, so it seemed like a good idea). After I was done, I put them back on and my bike runs pretty good without doing anything additional. I also changed my exhaust pipes from the 4-4 to a mac 4-2 at that time, so I blame that for the slight idling problems it has now. That being said, I plan to completely tear my carbs apart and do a thorough cleaning next spring where I will be removing everything and soaking it in carb cleaner and replacing all the rubber orings and such and buying the gauges to sync it myself. I want to try and do one of those awesome how-to's with lots of pictures and stuff that I have seen on here as I know when I first thought of working on my carbs it scared me to death.

Well, hope I haven't put anyone to sleep yet, and hope this helps.

Brandon
Sure it's for sale! How much you ask?? Well, how much are you willing to pay??? Now triple it, that's the price!

1973 CB500 K2 - Sold the bike and bought a Mig, Miss the bike, Love the Mig :D
1980 CB650 Custom
1971 CB500 Frame 650 engine: Project

Trip and General Ramblings blog: manjisann.blogspot.com

shon

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Re: FUEL LEAK / 1975 CB550
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2008, 10:32:25 AM »
Brandon, Thanks!  So I was thinking about replacing my fuel lines today before I considered doing anything else.  This morning I stuck my finger against where the fuel line meets the right side of the carb assembly and the hose was not dry.  The hoses are old.  Give me your advice on replacing those fuel lines?  Thanks!

Offline manjisann

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Re: FUEL LEAK / 1974 CB550
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2008, 07:55:45 PM »
Sorry I didn't reply sooner, I was fixing (I hope) an oil leak I caused on my bike.  ;D working on your own machine can be so fun sometimes.

I recommend getting the metric fuel hose from your Honda dealer. I think you can get away with using ΒΌ inch inside diameter tubing, but it is loose enough you will need to be sure to clamp it to the brass nipples or you will eventually get a leak, and you really don't want that. Either way, take some of your old hose with you. The first time I did this, I bought some hose from the auto store and paid for the fuel rated stuff, but the outside diameter was too big.  When I did mine, I didn't put the little clips back on that hold the hose to the brass nipples and even 4 or so months later I am leak free. But, when I do my rebuild I will be putting those little clamps on, it's probably not the best idea to  not, I will let you decide the route you want to take. 

Sorry, I'm don't remember this part as we as the carb bowls, but I should be able to give you enough that you can easily fill in the blanks on your own. First, be sure to take good pictures of how both the front and back of your carbs look.  When I did mine, I didn't realize that the throttle return spring would come of, and I'm still not 100% sure I got it back in the right place, but since my throttle works, I guess I did.

1)   Clean the exterior of your carbs as good as you can, but don't stress squeaky clean, this just makes it easier to see where everything goes.

2)   I can't remember this part real well, but I think you need to loosen the choke linkage.  I know you will need to remove the throttle return spring, like I said, be sure to note how it is connected on both ends. Use needle nose pliers to remove it.

3)   Once this is done, I believe you can now take the 8 screws out that hold the brace on the front of the carbs. It's the big metal piece that holds all the carbs together and keeps them spaced appropriately.  With the throttle linkages loosened you should be able to slip this over the front of the carbs. 

4)   At this point I believe you can remove the old fuel lines and put the new ones on. If you decide to put an in line fuel filter in you can't run the fuel line through that brace on the line closest to the number one carb, as when you go to connect everything back up to the petcock the angle will be so severe that it will either restrict or completely block the flow of fuel. Getting the fuel lines on those stupid brass nipples that  are on the carbs is a pain. I had to really work at it to get it on, you can use the needle nose pliers here as well, just be careful. The thought just occurred to me that if you put just a small amount of clean motor oil on the nipple, the fuel line might slide on better.

5)   As I said, I didn't use the little fuel line clamps, but I would recommend you do. This isn't so much fun that you want to develop a leak down there and then have to do this all over again. When you go to the dealer, you can see how much they are. I don't think you can get the little screw clamps to fit in this tight space.

6)   In all honesty from here it's just the reverse of the disassembly.

7)   If you decide to put an inline fuel lines, the reserve line is pretty easy, its long enough to use a standard inline filter with. The main line though, the one that goes in near the number 1 carb, is so short that I finally ended up putting in a little pancake lawn mower filter. Since these systems are gravity fed and not under pressure I figured it would be OK, and so far I've been right. If someone knows where to get inline fuel filters that have a 90 degree bend in them that are small enough to use for this application, please feel free to say, cause I looked all over and couldn't find them.

8)   At this point just hook the fuel lines back up to your petcock and you are done.
Sorry I can't be more specific on this part of it, for some reason I don't remember the details quite as well, but  this is what I do remember, and some of the little hang-ups I ran into. The other thing, is the little tubes that connect to the overflows on the carb bowls, don't run without them. If gas gets on your hot engine it isn't good. These ones though, you can just use standard air tubing which over time will get stiff, but since it's so easy to get to, you can just replace them whenever you need to.

Hopefully this helps.

Brandon
Sure it's for sale! How much you ask?? Well, how much are you willing to pay??? Now triple it, that's the price!

1973 CB500 K2 - Sold the bike and bought a Mig, Miss the bike, Love the Mig :D
1980 CB650 Custom
1971 CB500 Frame 650 engine: Project

Trip and General Ramblings blog: manjisann.blogspot.com

shon

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Re: FUEL LEAK / 1974 CB550
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2008, 05:57:49 PM »
Brandon,
You have been a huge help.  So let me tell you where I am.

Today I took my carbs off the bike, separated them all, replaced the fuel lines and the +- inch long hose that runs between carbs 1-2 and 3-4 as one of these was in very bad shape (I used new hose clips on all of this).  By they way, everything you say is correct about 1/4 inch id hose and regular old hose clamps.  I got everything from the Honda shop.  Anyway I finally got it all put back together and I am leaking even more fuel than before I begun.  I have a suspicion that the  o-rings on the brass T nipple thingys that the fuel lines connect to are the culprit, but I don't know and I only want to do this once more so I think I will take it all apart next weekend and replace o-rings, make sure the floats are free, clean everything real good etc. 

Can you tell me if I have a stuck float and a float valve isn't shutting off fuel to a float bowl, from where does the extra fuel escape the carb?

Thanks!

Thoughts?

Offline tonycb650

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Re: FUEL LEAK / 1974 CB550
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2008, 10:17:32 AM »
My carbs on my 650 was leaking gas and i thought it was the float needles. It turned out to be the o-rings on that fuel tee.Honda only sells the tee with o-rings and not the o-rings seperatly.though mine is a 650. Anyway, i replaced that tee and no more leaks. ;D.TO replace it you have to remove the carbs, and separate the carbs.
80cb650c 80 cm400

shon

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Re: FUEL LEAK / 1974 CB550
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2008, 10:43:32 AM »
Yeah, I am tempted to try replacing the o-rings on the tees before I take the carbs all apart.  I am leaking fuel even when the petcock is off.  It seems to me that if the float valve wasn't shutting off, then the leaking would stop when the fuel supply is cut off.  The leaking has actually become worse since I separated the carbs and replaced the fuel lines.  The problem is that the honda shop says I can't buy new tees and he told me that the replacement o-rings for the tees come in the carb kit.  Does that make any sense to you?  Also, how tight of a fit would you say your new tees had between the cabs?  Mine seem pretty loose right now.

Thanks!

shon

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Re: FUEL LEAK / 1974 CB550
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2008, 10:48:09 AM »
Actually, I just looked at bikebandit.com and it looks like I can get the gaskets for the tees. 

Do you have an opinion on my next course of action?  I had a reall tough time getting the carbs back on the bike so I am hoping to solve this the next time I take them off.

Thanks.

Offline tonycb650

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Re: FUEL LEAK / 1974 CB550
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2008, 03:41:42 PM »
The tee was loose before but with the new tee and o-rings its a tighter fit. I would sujest getting new carb insulaters(rubber pieces between carbs and head) I think they are avalible at david silver spares.(??) ???
80cb650c 80 cm400

shon

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Re: FUEL LEAK / 1974 CB550
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2008, 05:24:48 PM »
What will carb insulators gain me?  The look to be in pretty good shape.  A couple of the ones between the airbox and the carbs are in questionable shape however.

My current plan is this:

I am going to get my hands on some new o-rings for the tee joints and replace them.  Then I will hook the carbs up to the fuel lines (off the bike) and see if the new o-rings stop the leaking.  If not, I will pull the carbs apart for a good cleaning and replace what  need to as I do that.  I should say that I have tried to drain the float bowl at carb 1 and 2 using the drain screw.  I don't get any fuel through the drain hoses which I know are clear as I blew them out w/an air compressor.  Tis tells me that I have gunk build up in the bottom of those float bowls.  Anyone have any thoughts on that or on my plan in general?

I don't really think this leaking is due to a stuck float as the leaking happens when the petcock is off as well.  The only thing that has stopped the leaking is to turn off the petcock and run the float bowls out of gas.

Thoughts?  Opinions?

Thanks.

Offline tonycb650

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Re: FUEL LEAK / 1974 CB550
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2008, 05:51:51 PM »
The new carb insulaters would gain you about an extra hour of time getting the carbs on and off! ;D ;D. The new ones are alot softer than old hard ones and makes it ALOT easier to remove and replace the carbs. But before you remove the carbs, make sure you know where that gas is coming from.If you have "gunk" in the float bowls, then it is a good possibility that it IS the float valve stuck open.If the gunk is stopping up the overflow, then the carbs are filling compleatly over and could be coming out of the float bowl vents(plastic tees between carbs 1 +2 and 3+4 .It will take a few seconds after turning off the petcock before the gas will stop dripping. If you havent pulled the carbs off and done a good cleaning yet , just buy a carb kit and remove, clean, rebuild the carbs with the new o-rings in the kit.If you dont clean them knowing you already have "gunk" inside, you WILL have to remove them more than once.
80cb650c 80 cm400

shon

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Re: FUEL LEAK / 1974 CB550
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2008, 06:11:39 PM »
Ok, but what I am telling you is that even with the tank removed from the bike the carbs leak profusely and indefinitely.  The only way I found to stop the leaking was to run the engine w/the petcock turned off until the float bowls are empty of fuel.  Hmm, I think I will pull the carbs, hook them up to the tank, let the fuel flow and see if I can't isolate where the fuel is escaping from.

I am just thinking that if I can replace some o-rings or something minor then I can be out riding in the nice fall weather.  I was hoping to put off pulling the carbs apart until the cold weather hits.  Perhaps I won't have that option.

Do you know if Honda's carb kits come w/o-rings for the brass fuel line tees?  The parts guy at the honda shop told me they did, but I have a strange suspicion that the o-rings he was showing me in the carb kit were for use inside the carb.

Do you know about this?

Thanks!

shon

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Re: FUEL LEAK / 1974 CB550
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2008, 05:53:51 AM »
One more question:

If I end up pulling the carbs apart, what do I need to leave alone in order to avoid the need for a re sync when I get them back together?  Do I need to leave the tops (throttle valve, etc.) alone and just full apart the float bowls, etc.?

Thanks!

shon

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Re: FUEL LEAK / 1974 CB550 PLEASE READ!!
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2008, 05:54:22 AM »
Ok, some of you may want to hear this:

I ran the carbs out of gas a couple days ago so my neighbors wouldn't have to smell fuel while I make my plans to tear my carbs apart for a cleaning/rebuild.  Yesterday on my way home from work I thought to my self that I never took the bike out for a good ride (you know, to heat things up real well) after I replaced the fuel lines on Saturday.  Well, I turned on the petcock and headed out of my driveway before the carbs had a chance to start leaking fuel as they had been.  Long story short, the leaking has gone away.  Not a drop since yesterday at about 3:00 pm.  This mystery should make me very frustrated, but I am very happy to be riding again.

Anyway, it is/was idling high but I think it is/was due to a too tight throttle cable and some fine tuning of the cable tension and the idle screw seems to be getting it closer to normal.

Also, I realized yesterday that my bike is supposed to have 2 throttle cables and I only have 1 (pull open obviously).  How critical do you think this is.  I suppose having the push/close throttle cable guarantees a positive closure of the throttle slide valves and may help my idle rpms stabilize. 

Any opinions about any of this?

Thank you.