Author Topic: Too hell with these spark units Update: Fixed  (Read 15878 times)

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Offline speedy gonzalais

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2008, 12:07:00 PM »
Man you guys would sure confuse me? ;D
I'm still a big fan of Hush plan #1.

Auto electricians here are some what a rip off £90 an hour is to expensive. Im gonna get some new coils and a new regulator and im gonna replace the ignition system wiring ive already replaced every spade connector i could find still having problems hell i might even replace every thing electrical, Ive had these electrical probs on other bikes and like u say they haunt u and wont go away  :-[. i will have this baby running rite even if its the last thing i do.
82' C90
87' yamaha T80
79' CB125T/CD200 project
82' CB650z
80s kawasaki ae50/150cc project
92' Suzuki GSXR600
80' CB250N

Offline kslrr

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2008, 12:18:06 PM »
Replacing just for replacements sake without completely diagnosing and understanding the problem is just a waste of time and money.
Now  1972 CB350FX (experimental v2.0)
        1981 CB650c Custom with '79 engine (wifes)
        1981 CB650 engine
        2004 HD XL883C Custom
        1977 Yamaha XS750D (in progress)
Then 1972 CL175
        1964 Yamaha YGS-1T
No ride is a Bad ride

Honda_Nut

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2008, 12:19:53 PM »
Shotgunning parts is always a bad technique for solving electrical problems. What you do is get a wiring diagram and measure the appropriate circuits' and components' resistance to ground and resistance to battery + with a decent dmm. What you are trying to do is determine if there are any shorts or where the poor connections are.

It seems to me you are not isolating and testing individual components and circuits one at a time, but simply being overwhelmed by the system as a whole. Simplify your trouble shooting strategy and you will find the problem.

Offline speedy gonzalais

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2008, 12:29:06 PM »
Ive had the whole harness off the bike checked all the connections replaced all the connectors checked the earths tested the altenator output tested the output from the regulator tested the output to the battery tried a different regulator and spark units even tried differnt coils changed the plugs changed the kill switch ignition switch advance and retard unit pulser generator theres lots ive tried. its starting to make me depressed.
82' C90
87' yamaha T80
79' CB125T/CD200 project
82' CB650z
80s kawasaki ae50/150cc project
92' Suzuki GSXR600
80' CB250N

Offline kslrr

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2008, 12:39:29 PM »
You state in your latest post that you tested the regulator. It must have passed because you do not say otherwise.  In your previous post you state that you are going to get a new regulator again, which would be the 2nd or 3rd time?  You need to take a break.  Back away from the 650 and have some fun, if you can.
Now  1972 CB350FX (experimental v2.0)
        1981 CB650c Custom with '79 engine (wifes)
        1981 CB650 engine
        2004 HD XL883C Custom
        1977 Yamaha XS750D (in progress)
Then 1972 CL175
        1964 Yamaha YGS-1T
No ride is a Bad ride

Offline speedy gonzalais

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2008, 01:05:38 PM »
Ive got a parts bike Ive been swapping most the parts off that i tested the regulator and yes it did pass BUT the faults I'm facing dont happen all the time like one minute the bike will run fine then the next i have problems like starting this morning i had to push start even tho the battery was charged it wouldn't fire a couple of days ago it started as soon as i hit the button then today i stopped the bike it started fine then i stopped again and it wouldn't go something is failing intermittent, how can i really know that the component I'm testing ain't just working OK at that time. I'm going on a very long ride soon and i want to be sure i ain't gonna be breaking down every 5 Min's.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 01:22:09 PM by dids2008 »
82' C90
87' yamaha T80
79' CB125T/CD200 project
82' CB650z
80s kawasaki ae50/150cc project
92' Suzuki GSXR600
80' CB250N

Offline shoemanII

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2008, 01:27:26 PM »
sounds like a flakey ignition switch, but you changed that out w/a new one?
bobp in vt
'96 ducati carb'd 900ss/cr 
'72 dt2
'77cb550k frankenberry:  '77cb550k frame, '78cb550k engine, '78cb550f tank, unknown front-end

Offline speedy gonzalais

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2008, 01:31:48 PM »
sounds like a flakey ignition switch, but you changed that out w/a new one?
bobp in vt

It was off the other bike its unlikely they are both faulty but could be possible, Thats the thing with my cb the possibilities are endless.
82' C90
87' yamaha T80
79' CB125T/CD200 project
82' CB650z
80s kawasaki ae50/150cc project
92' Suzuki GSXR600
80' CB250N

Offline speedy gonzalais

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2008, 01:32:38 PM »
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh :o
82' C90
87' yamaha T80
79' CB125T/CD200 project
82' CB650z
80s kawasaki ae50/150cc project
92' Suzuki GSXR600
80' CB250N

Offline scunny

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2008, 01:35:08 PM »
how is the motor earthed, ie have you painted the frame
past-cb100,ts250,cb500,cb500,gs1000,gs650g.phillips traveller
present-CB 650 retro
            VTR1000F3
           XL250S riverbed rocket
           TS250[sold]
           TS185[sold]
           XL125S[sold]
           MT50 (white)
           MT50 (red)[sold]
           KN250/XS400 project
           XR/XL250 bitsa under construction
           SL100[sold]
           XL250R
           pedal(pub bike) leaks oil
my gallery http://gallery.sohc4.net/members/personal/scunny

Offline speedy gonzalais

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2008, 01:37:47 PM »
yea i painted the frame but i put a grinder to the part the earth strap bolts on to
82' C90
87' yamaha T80
79' CB125T/CD200 project
82' CB650z
80s kawasaki ae50/150cc project
92' Suzuki GSXR600
80' CB250N

Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2008, 01:49:48 PM »
yea i painted the frame but i put a grinder to the part the earth strap bolts on to
You could always junk the lot and fit a boyer bransden ignition and power box? No need for a battery then...about £270 and comes with everything including new coils - not cheap but it's made in good old Blighty  ;D
1994 Ducati 888 SP5
1951 Ducati 50cc Cucciolo
1981 Yamaha XV750 SE

Offline speedy gonzalais

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2008, 01:51:18 PM »
yea i painted the frame but i put a grinder to the part the earth strap bolts on to
You could always junk the lot and fit a boyer bransden ignition and power box? No need for a battery then...about £270 and comes with everything including new coils - not cheap but it's made in good old Blighty  ;D

Can you send us a link please
82' C90
87' yamaha T80
79' CB125T/CD200 project
82' CB650z
80s kawasaki ae50/150cc project
92' Suzuki GSXR600
80' CB250N

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2008, 02:05:19 PM »
The 650 is electric start only, draws 150 while starting, (plus the bike standard electrical load) and you are wondering why a 7/12th size battery has problems keeping up?  Perhaps a bull whip will make the battery work harder? :)

So, you have two arms and have a weight lift limit.  Is it the same when you only use one arm?

CDI units have what is known as a DC-DC voltage converter to step up the 12v from the battery to around 300 Volts delivered to the coils.  This makes them spark pretty good.  ;D
However, these DC-DC converters have electrolytic capacitors in them that fatigue with age, use, and dis-use.  They then develop an internal resistance which not only draws more power than designed, it also reduces the output of the converter.
The only answer is to renew the CDI units or the capacitors inside them.  Swapping with ones of the same age may not be of ANY benefit.  The capacitors inside can be changed if you are familiar with tecqniques for potting compound removal. (not fun).

Cheers,



Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline CB750F2

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2008, 02:23:43 PM »
Dids, I gree that you seem to have an intermittent problem which is making it difficult to solve but just changing parts without diagnosing the problem is not the way to go. Lets see if we can get to the bottom of your problem.
      The spark units can be viewed as  switches which are turned on/off by pulses from the pulse unit. So, if the bike does not fire the possible causes are:
1      Low voltage on the Black/white wire. Measure this voltage near the spark units when the bike starts and again when it won't start. Maybe one of the other 650 owners will do this on their bike so that you have something to  compare with.
2      Faulty loose or poorly adjusted pulse units. Remove the pulse unit cover and inspect. Can the gap be adjusted? Others may help here.
3       Coils breaking down. May be the cause of your miss firing. Check for high tension leaks around the coils and leads - do this in the dark.
         Re-check all of your earths and the spark units have adequate ventilation.
So in summary your problem is that it some times starts on th ebutton and sometimes it won't and sometimes you have miss-firing. Have I got this correct?
        I will be away for approx. but I will check for feedback when I get home.
Pat
Regards
Pat from Australia

Offline speedy gonzalais

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2008, 02:26:26 PM »
Dids, I gree that you seem to have an intermittent problem which is making it difficult to solve but just changing parts without diagnosing the problem is not the way to go. Lets see if we can get to the bottom of your problem.
      The spark units can be viewed as  switches which are turned on/off by pulses from the pulse unit. So, if the bike does not fire the possible causes are:
1      Low voltage on the Black/white wire. Measure this voltage near the spark units when the bike starts and again when it won't start. Maybe one of the other 650 owners will do this on their bike so that you have something to  compare with.
2      Faulty loose or poorly adjusted pulse units. Remove the pulse unit cover and inspect. Can the gap be adjusted? Others may help here.
3       Coils breaking down. May be the cause of your miss firing. Check for high tension leaks around the coils and leads - do this in the dark.
         Re-check all of your earths and the spark units have adequate ventilation.
So in summary your problem is that it some times starts on th ebutton and sometimes it won't and sometimes you have miss-firing. Have I got this correct?
        I will be away for approx. but I will check for feedback when I get home.
Pat


Thats correct.
82' C90
87' yamaha T80
79' CB125T/CD200 project
82' CB650z
80s kawasaki ae50/150cc project
92' Suzuki GSXR600
80' CB250N

Offline kslrr

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2008, 02:29:19 PM »
TT, the 650 does not use CDI, it's TPI. No caps, no DC-DC up converter. The spark units are just big ass transisters.
Now  1972 CB350FX (experimental v2.0)
        1981 CB650c Custom with '79 engine (wifes)
        1981 CB650 engine
        2004 HD XL883C Custom
        1977 Yamaha XS750D (in progress)
Then 1972 CL175
        1964 Yamaha YGS-1T
No ride is a Bad ride

Offline CB750F2

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2008, 02:30:46 PM »
TT, Dids has replaced these units - twice I think. There are two new units fitted on the bike now. Dids, is that correct. Pat
Regards
Pat from Australia

Offline scunny

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2008, 02:37:52 PM »
As I've found through my rigorous search on the interweb, we don't actually have CDI ignition on our bikes. We simply have a transistorized Kettering system.

In other words, we have transistors/pulse triggers that replaced the points.

Describing CDI Ignition:
http://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/Ignition/CDI.html

Quote:
With the Kettering Induction ignition design, the coils are powered all the time at 12 volts and are commanded to collapse to spark by the ignition module. Here, the ignition module disconnects the primary winding coil ground. The coil secondary winding collapses to spark at about 30,000 volts. In the CDI design, the coils are not powered. They receive a short high (250 volt) pulse from the ignition module and then amplify that (100:1) to a much larger voltage spike (about 40,000 volts) . Since the potential output of a CDI coil can be over 40,000 volts you have stickers all over your engine bay reminding you that: This can KILL you!!


Quote:
TPI’s spark units have easily recognizable failure modes. A common one is when an attempt is made to start the bike after it has sat awhile and the battery is low. During starting, battery voltage normally dips when the starter is used but with less to start with, the battery’s voltage drops too low for the spark unit to operate, and the engine will not start due to loss of spark. Meantime, the transistor is overheating, and will soon permanently fail. This is such a known failure mode that Honda later added time-out circuits to their TPI systems, as did also other manufacturers. Another possible route to failure is the unthinking substitution of ignition coils having too low a primary resistance. Such coils will burn out the spark units. You have no doubt heard of this. High performance ignition coils have higher potential voltage output because they have larger primary to secondary winding turn ratios. There are two ways to build a coil with a larger turn ratio - either leave the primary the same and increase the secondary turns, or leave the secondary the same and decrease the primary turns. The latter method was once very popular. However, it results in a coil having lower than stock primary resistance. While not big deal on a points bike, whose points will merely arc a bit more, the transistors in a TPI system will not endure the increased current flow through the coil for very long, and the spark units will fail. We’ll address this issue again in Part 3. One thing you do not have to worry about with spark units is failures due to loss of ground. Their metal boxes do not physically ground, but rather, the spark units get their grounds through the green wire feeding back into the wire harness. And here are a few tips. When the ignition system is acting up, but it is mostly when the engine is warm, don’t suspect the spark units. The pulsers are likely the problem. When the ignition performs badly whether hot or cold, then the spark units become more suspect.


So it's actually not the higher voltage of an overcharging alternator that generally melts the sparkers, it's the low voltage of a bad battery after sitting for a while that causes the damage.

stolen from http://www.hondacb650.com/index.php
past-cb100,ts250,cb500,cb500,gs1000,gs650g.phillips traveller
present-CB 650 retro
            VTR1000F3
           XL250S riverbed rocket
           TS250[sold]
           TS185[sold]
           XL125S[sold]
           MT50 (white)
           MT50 (red)[sold]
           KN250/XS400 project
           XR/XL250 bitsa under construction
           SL100[sold]
           XL250R
           pedal(pub bike) leaks oil
my gallery http://gallery.sohc4.net/members/personal/scunny

Offline kslrr

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2008, 02:41:09 PM »
Yea, just like what I found and pointed out in REPLY # 9.
Now  1972 CB350FX (experimental v2.0)
        1981 CB650c Custom with '79 engine (wifes)
        1981 CB650 engine
        2004 HD XL883C Custom
        1977 Yamaha XS750D (in progress)
Then 1972 CL175
        1964 Yamaha YGS-1T
No ride is a Bad ride

Offline speedy gonzalais

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2008, 02:41:33 PM »
TT, Dids has replaced these units - twice I think. There are two new units fitted on the bike now. Dids, is that correct. Pat

Yes i managed to find some new ones.
82' C90
87' yamaha T80
79' CB125T/CD200 project
82' CB650z
80s kawasaki ae50/150cc project
92' Suzuki GSXR600
80' CB250N

Offline speedy gonzalais

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2008, 02:50:22 PM »
Yea, just like what I found and pointed out in REPLY # 9.

sorry kslrr i didnt see the update its all starting to make sense now.
82' C90
87' yamaha T80
79' CB125T/CD200 project
82' CB650z
80s kawasaki ae50/150cc project
92' Suzuki GSXR600
80' CB250N

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2008, 02:51:37 PM »
Ok,
I give up then...

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline speedy gonzalais

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2008, 02:53:57 PM »
Ok,
I give up then...

Cheers,

I see what you mean about the battery i did buy a new one today 12ah
82' C90
87' yamaha T80
79' CB125T/CD200 project
82' CB650z
80s kawasaki ae50/150cc project
92' Suzuki GSXR600
80' CB250N

Offline speedy gonzalais

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2008, 06:01:36 PM »
anybody now of where i can get a diagram for these spark units?

cheers
82' C90
87' yamaha T80
79' CB125T/CD200 project
82' CB650z
80s kawasaki ae50/150cc project
92' Suzuki GSXR600
80' CB250N