Author Topic: Too hell with these spark units Update: Fixed  (Read 16481 times)

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Offline kslrr

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2008, 06:17:19 PM »
anybody now of where i can get a diagram for these spark units?

cheers

Do you mean the internal workings? Are you thinking of taking them apart?
Now  1972 CB350FX (experimental v2.0)
        1981 CB650c Custom with '79 engine (wifes)
        1981 CB650 engine
        2004 HD XL883C Custom
        1977 Yamaha XS750D (in progress)
Then 1972 CL175
        1964 Yamaha YGS-1T
No ride is a Bad ride

Offline speedy gonzalais

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2008, 06:24:02 PM »
anybody now of where i can get a diagram for these spark units?

cheers

Do you mean the internal workings? Are you thinking of taking them apart?

Yea the are almost there any way all the black sealant has melted out im thinking of changin the internals.
82' C90
87' yamaha T80
79' CB125T/CD200 project
82' CB650z
80s kawasaki ae50/150cc project
92' Suzuki GSXR600
80' CB250N

Offline kslrr

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2008, 06:28:19 PM »
Good luck. I would doubt it if there was a part number in there. Most likely it is a custom made chip/circuit board.
Now  1972 CB350FX (experimental v2.0)
        1981 CB650c Custom with '79 engine (wifes)
        1981 CB650 engine
        2004 HD XL883C Custom
        1977 Yamaha XS750D (in progress)
Then 1972 CL175
        1964 Yamaha YGS-1T
No ride is a Bad ride

Offline speedy gonzalais

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2008, 06:32:23 PM »
Ive got one apart its just a single transistor i think
82' C90
87' yamaha T80
79' CB125T/CD200 project
82' CB650z
80s kawasaki ae50/150cc project
92' Suzuki GSXR600
80' CB250N

Offline shoemanII

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2008, 07:49:54 PM »
this is getting really interesting, have just picked up a non-running '81 750c that had black goo melted out of both spark units and a dead battery.  re-filled the spark units w/epoxy, replaced the battery and test rode for 30mi, ran great.  all electrics work, charging system perfect thruout rpm range.  posted a question about the melted goo on cb750c.com and was told, "yea they sometimes do that - no problem".  hmmmmmmmmm.  think i'll check and see if the coils are stock.   :P 
bobp 
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 07:53:05 PM by shoemanII »
'96 ducati carb'd 900ss/cr 
'72 dt2
'77cb550k frankenberry:  '77cb550k frame, '78cb550k engine, '78cb550f tank, unknown front-end

Offline Soos

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2008, 08:42:40 PM »
theres got to be a better ignition system out there?

Yeah... a DYNA2000.
But it takes a bit of work, and you risk buggering up $500 worth of stuff if you mess it up.
 ;D  ;D

I'll modify one if you are seriously interested... but you would have to buy the unit, and for me to mod it wouldn't be cheap either.


l8r
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 08:46:29 PM by Soos »
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(61mm)652cc 1979 cb650

Offline speedy gonzalais

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #56 on: October 02, 2008, 05:06:01 AM »
Thanks for the offer but thats a bit over my budget well sayin that im already way over budget on this one, Im gona try and recondition the spark units and go from there

cheers for the help every one.
82' C90
87' yamaha T80
79' CB125T/CD200 project
82' CB650z
80s kawasaki ae50/150cc project
92' Suzuki GSXR600
80' CB250N

Offline speedy gonzalais

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Re: Too hell with these spark units
« Reply #57 on: October 02, 2008, 11:40:21 AM »
Update: Spark units are simple to repair, I jacked some capacitors out of and old stereo amplifier it took a few attemps to find the right one but did it in the end, now she runs fine, i did some searching on google and it seems that the battery burned them out thanks for pointing that out scunny and thanks to every one else for the input. It just goes to show that trying to save a few bucks on a cheaper battery cost 4 times that fixing the things it broke.
82' C90
87' yamaha T80
79' CB125T/CD200 project
82' CB650z
80s kawasaki ae50/150cc project
92' Suzuki GSXR600
80' CB250N

Offline mystic_1

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Re: Too hell with these spark units Update: Fixed
« Reply #58 on: October 02, 2008, 01:40:05 PM »
Wow, please share the details of the work, did you take pictures?  Specs on the capacitors you used would be awesome as well.  You're the first person I've heard of attempting to repair the spark units, you could save lots of people tons of money if the repairs hold up!

Keep us posted.

mystic_1
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for."
- John Augustus Shedd

My build thread:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=68952.0

Offline shoemanII

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Re: Too hell with these spark units Update: Fixed
« Reply #59 on: October 02, 2008, 02:33:51 PM »
so a low battery overheated the spark units?  that makes sorta sense 'cause the battery on my "new" bike ( had the infamous black goo everywhere) was dead, dead ,dead when i got it.  lucky both spark units still work i s'pose.  nice work fixing it, btw. ;) 
'96 ducati carb'd 900ss/cr 
'72 dt2
'77cb550k frankenberry:  '77cb550k frame, '78cb550k engine, '78cb550f tank, unknown front-end

Offline Hush

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Re: Too hell with these spark units Update: Fixed
« Reply #60 on: October 02, 2008, 02:35:23 PM »
Hey Dids, big ups on curing your problem. ;D
As Mystic said, what are the type of capaciter you used and their specs, capacitors are cheap as chips but this is a breakthough for us 650 owners.........well done that man. ;D
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Online CBJoe

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Re: Too hell with these spark units Update: Fixed
« Reply #61 on: October 02, 2008, 02:55:13 PM »
Hey Dids, big ups on curing your problem. ;D
As Mystic said, what are the type of capaciter you used and their specs, capacitors are cheap as chips but this is a breakthough for us 650 owners.........well done that man. ;D

Pics and Details and I vote that it be placed into the FAQ

Glad you're up and runnin' Dids...Joe
'07 Bonneville Black
'15 Moto Guzzi California 1400
CB750K2 Hot Rod Revival http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,171693.0.html
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Offline speedy gonzalais

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Re: Too hell with these spark units Update: Fixed
« Reply #62 on: October 02, 2008, 02:57:42 PM »
I didnt think to take any pics  :-\ Im just gonna go and freshen up then il write about what i did, also im thinkin of doing the other spark units aswell so il deff take pics if i do.
82' C90
87' yamaha T80
79' CB125T/CD200 project
82' CB650z
80s kawasaki ae50/150cc project
92' Suzuki GSXR600
80' CB250N

Offline speedy gonzalais

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Re: Too hell with these spark units Update: Fixed
« Reply #63 on: October 02, 2008, 08:03:07 PM »
When i first looked at all this it was like rocket science to me and now i cant believe how simple these spark units really are.

To understand it you first need to understand how this ignition system works, IL try to make this simple.
It works just like the old points ignition, except the points are replaced by pulsar generators and the spark units/ignition amplifiers, Instead of the points closing and charging the coils the spark units keep a constant 12v fed to the coils, the capacitor inside these units keeps the current at 12v even if the feed to the units drops to a minimum of 6v they will still produce 12v, the pulsers are connected to the spark units also there job is to send a pulse to the spark units disrupting the circuit for .8ms causing the coils to discharge creating a spark at the plugs, I wont go right into it but this gives you some idea of how it works, Its relatively the same as the ignition systems on most modern cars where the points and distributor are replaced with a coil pack and crank sensor/ignition pick up.
What really makes me laugh is Honda fitted these transistorised ignition systems to bikes in the late 70s but car manufacturers didn't make use of this system till the early 90s and that was just a handfull, it wasn't till the late 90s/2000 that most cars made use of them and still to date some still use a distributor :o.

so to the important bit the spark units. They should last for the life of the bike but in my case and many a battery or bad connections causes an overload in the spark units making them heat up rapidly melting the black sealant, once this has all gone they will continue to get hotter until the solder joints start to melt causing a failure, Or being exposed to the air and moister they short circuit, If left like this they can also damage the coils and pulser generators, My first mistake was using a cheap battery, and my second was trying to re seal with silicon, i thought silicon would be the perfect sealant but as i later found out some types of silicon conduct electricity like the type i used.

So by now i bet your all thinking ffs get to the point so i will, The rest of the black sealent was easy to remove i used a small flat bladed screw driver to carefully scrap away what was left, I then un-soldered the green and black/white wire connected to the capacitor note that these wires are connected to the legs of the capacitor but also connected to 2 metal pins mounted insidethe unit itself, Try not to pull them out as it will ruin the units. The hardest part was removing the capacitors as there where stuck with some very strong glue.

Like mentioned before i found an old amplifier and took the capacitors from that, i had to try a few different ones before i got it rite but did in the end, As these units where made over 20 years ago the capacitors are no longer available to buy that's why the really old silver amplifier i found came in handy, the capacitors i used are marked 100 PF BUT and that's a really big but until i have a chance to go on a long ride and test the units properly trying this Ur self will be at your own risk i dint want to be held responsible for any f ups.

I can only wish id tried this sooner than spending £100 on a new set that the battery f***ed as well.
82' C90
87' yamaha T80
79' CB125T/CD200 project
82' CB650z
80s kawasaki ae50/150cc project
92' Suzuki GSXR600
80' CB250N

Offline kslrr

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Re: Too hell with these spark units Update: Fixed
« Reply #64 on: October 02, 2008, 08:27:49 PM »
Wow, you really did it.  Did you need to replace the transistors as well?  Or just the caps.  What you describe sounds almost like a buck/boost or voltage doubling circuit.  Was there any other components in there?  And what did you use to replace the "potting" material, i.e. the black goo.
Now  1972 CB350FX (experimental v2.0)
        1981 CB650c Custom with '79 engine (wifes)
        1981 CB650 engine
        2004 HD XL883C Custom
        1977 Yamaha XS750D (in progress)
Then 1972 CL175
        1964 Yamaha YGS-1T
No ride is a Bad ride

Offline CB750F2

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Re: Too hell with these spark units Update: Fixed
« Reply #65 on: October 02, 2008, 09:05:09 PM »
Dids, Glad to hear that you have had some success. I have been unable to use my computer for the last 24hrs because yesterday I had eye surgery to remove cataracts - I am OK now. I don't fully understand what you have done. The part about the 12PF capacitor is what I don't fully undersatnd. 12PF is a small capacitance value. I will endeavour to find a copy of the internal circuitry so that I can see exactly how it works. If I cann't find a published circuit I will try and get a spark unit from a wrecker and pull it apart as you did or maybe you could do that with your old units. Regards Pat
Regards
Pat from Australia

Offline mystic_1

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Re: Too hell with these spark units Update: Fixed
« Reply #66 on: October 02, 2008, 09:08:26 PM »
Impressive!  I bow to you sir.

Yes, pics please if you do it again, before during and after would be awesome.

I have a buddy with an 81 CB750C that has this ignition system, we replaced the spark units several years ago due to this exact problem.

Sound to me like, a less here is to invest in a Battery Tender or similar trickle charger, and maybe an on-board voltmeter, to avoid ever running the bike on a low battery.  Cheap insurance, if you ask me :)

Good job!

mystic_1


Edit: oh, and you've now inspired me to try to dig up those old spark units and start chiseling out the rest of the epoxy.  :)

-m
« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 09:10:42 PM by mystic_1 »
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for."
- John Augustus Shedd

My build thread:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=68952.0

Offline CB750F2

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Re: Too hell with these spark units Update: Fixed
« Reply #67 on: October 03, 2008, 02:06:18 AM »
I haven't found a diagram of the spark units but these links should help. I think that the units on the CB650 are similar to the V4 Hondas minus the advance circuitry. Have a read. Pat

[url]http://users.rcn.com/kochc/moto/spark/ig_repair.html][http://www.motorcycleproject.com/motorcycle/text/trilogy01.html/url]
[url]http://users.rcn.com/kochc/moto/spark/ig_repair.html
Regards
Pat from Australia

Offline CB750F2

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Pat from Australia

Offline speedy gonzalais

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Re: Too hell with these spark units Update: Fixed
« Reply #69 on: October 03, 2008, 04:30:39 AM »
Wow, you really did it.  Did you need to replace the transistors as well?  Or just the caps.  What you describe sounds almost like a buck/boost or voltage doubling circuit.  Was there any other components in there?  And what did you use to replace the "potting" material, i.e. the black goo.

All i replaced was the caps theres a lot of stuff saying theres transistors on the coils but i couldnt see any i dont know wether they are inside the coils or in the harness somewhere, as for the spark units its a single cap inside.
Sorry to hear about you needing surgery pat i hope all went well i did strip thwe spark units as all 3 sets i have are no good well i fixed the new ones, The cap i used is 100 PF, from the little i can find on the net they are a 100v cap, the cap inside the unit was black even under the goo it had no numbers or markings im gonna post a little diagram i made

the little pins i mentioned are all stuck in the spark unit body wether theres any thing else in them im not sure but its pretty solid and replacing the caps did fix the issue.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2008, 04:34:44 AM by dids2008 »
82' C90
87' yamaha T80
79' CB125T/CD200 project
82' CB650z
80s kawasaki ae50/150cc project
92' Suzuki GSXR600
80' CB250N

Offline speedy gonzalais

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Re: Too hell with these spark units Update: Fixed
« Reply #70 on: October 03, 2008, 04:44:58 AM »
Wow, you really did it.  Did you need to replace the transistors as well?  Or just the caps.  What you describe sounds almost like a buck/boost or voltage doubling circuit.  Was there any other components in there?  And what did you use to replace the "potting" material, i.e. the black goo.

Im not sure of the name but a friend of mine got it for me from work he said they used to use it in high voltage transformers.
82' C90
87' yamaha T80
79' CB125T/CD200 project
82' CB650z
80s kawasaki ae50/150cc project
92' Suzuki GSXR600
80' CB250N

Offline CB750F2

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Re: Too hell with these spark units Update: Fixed
« Reply #71 on: October 03, 2008, 05:12:27 AM »
Dids, thanks for your acknowledgement. The surgery was really no big deal - 5-10mins. The eye lens is sucked out and replaced with an acrylic one - cataracts gone|| Over the next couple of days my eyesight will return to 20/20.
    There must be more components than one 100pf cap. I just wish I was there with you. I am going to a place up the road next week were thre are motorcycle wreckers so I may find one there. Have a look at those links I sent. The first one shows a general diagram for the V$ hondas. I believe your spark units are the same except for the advance circuitry - I believe that the 650 has mechanical advance. The second link gives a description on how they work on the CBX500. The text also describes some of the problems that they have.
     In your case the cap connected across 12v and earth appears to have failed thus preventing the spark units from operating. Pat
Regards
Pat from Australia

Offline speedy gonzalais

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Re: Too hell with these spark units Update: Fixed
« Reply #72 on: October 03, 2008, 05:48:10 AM »
i think all that cap does is keep the voltage at 12v continously so you will always have a super strong spark and yes they do have an advance system located behind the pick up assembly.
And i once spent 24h in the eye clinic after the hospital squirted super glue in my eye it was the worst experiance of my life so far, so when i hear about eye surgery it makes me cringe :( and i did check out them pages those ignition systems look a lot different to mine.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2008, 05:51:14 AM by dids2008 »
82' C90
87' yamaha T80
79' CB125T/CD200 project
82' CB650z
80s kawasaki ae50/150cc project
92' Suzuki GSXR600
80' CB250N

Offline kslrr

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Re: Too hell with these spark units Update: Fixed
« Reply #73 on: October 03, 2008, 06:51:48 AM »
Wow, you really did it.  Did you need to replace the transistors as well?  Or just the caps.  What you describe sounds almost like a buck/boost or voltage doubling circuit.  Was there any other components in there?  And what did you use to replace the "potting" material, i.e. the black goo.

All i replaced was the caps theres a lot of stuff saying theres transistors on the coils but i couldnt see any i dont know wether they are inside the coils or in the harness somewhere, as for the spark units its a single cap inside.
Sorry to hear about you needing surgery pat i hope all went well i did strip thwe spark units as all 3 sets i have are no good well i fixed the new ones, The cap i used is 100 PF, from the little i can find on the net they are a 100v cap, the cap inside the unit was black even under the goo it had no numbers or markings im gonna post a little diagram i made

the little pins i mentioned are all stuck in the spark unit body wether theres any thing else in them im not sure but its pretty solid and replacing the caps did fix the issue.

Those pins in the body of the spark unit would be the transister. In other words, the entire spark unit is the transister. This gives maximum heat transfer. If there were no markings on the capacitors, how did you know which one to choose from the old amp?
Now  1972 CB350FX (experimental v2.0)
        1981 CB650c Custom with '79 engine (wifes)
        1981 CB650 engine
        2004 HD XL883C Custom
        1977 Yamaha XS750D (in progress)
Then 1972 CL175
        1964 Yamaha YGS-1T
No ride is a Bad ride

Offline speedy gonzalais

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Re: Too hell with these spark units Update: Fixed
« Reply #74 on: October 03, 2008, 11:48:16 AM »
Wow, you really did it.  Did you need to replace the transistors as well?  Or just the caps.  What you describe sounds almost like a buck/boost or voltage doubling circuit.  Was there any other components in there?  And what did you use to replace the "potting" material, i.e. the black goo.

All i replaced was the caps theres a lot of stuff saying theres transistors on the coils but i couldnt see any i dont know wether they are inside the coils or in the harness somewhere, as for the spark units its a single cap inside.
Sorry to hear about you needing surgery pat i hope all went well i did strip thwe spark units as all 3 sets i have are no good well i fixed the new ones, The cap i used is 100 PF, from the little i can find on the net they are a 100v cap, the cap inside the unit was black even under the goo it had no numbers or markings im gonna post a little diagram i made

the little pins i mentioned are all stuck in the spark unit body wether theres any thing else in them im not sure but its pretty solid and replacing the caps did fix the issue.

Those pins in the body of the spark unit would be the transister. In other words, the entire spark unit is the transister. This gives maximum heat transfer. If there were no markings on the capacitors, how did you know which one to choose from the old amp?

like mentioned above i tried a few different ones,
82' C90
87' yamaha T80
79' CB125T/CD200 project
82' CB650z
80s kawasaki ae50/150cc project
92' Suzuki GSXR600
80' CB250N