Author Topic: Coil Problems? Or Points?  (Read 2094 times)

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CB750WR

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Coil Problems? Or Points?
« on: October 21, 2008, 02:58:26 PM »
i have a 1976 cb750 four. i have rebuilt it myself. I cant figure out what my problem is. I can start it and it will run. however it only takes maybe a mile or so and the bike will die. if i wait an hour or so it will start right back up and will run fine until i get on the road again.
 

Offline Sporkfly

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Re: Coil Problems? Or Points?
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2008, 03:42:04 PM »
Try running it without the gas cap. If it idles and will get up to speed I doubt it's coils or points... Sounds to me like your gas cap vent is plugged. I'm sure somebody more knowledgeable than myself will chime in though.
1977 CB550K
1979 GL1000 - Current project, winter '09-'10
1979 CX500
1976 Suzuki GT500 Titan

Offline CBJoe

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Re: Coil Problems? Or Points?
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2008, 03:57:18 PM »
Will it idle without choke once it warms up?  Will it eventually die if you let it idle for long enough or will it only die once you get up to speed?

Is your fuel line kinked? The same thought as the gas cap.  IE... fuel flow not at a high/constant enough volume.

EDIT:  Has it ever run since you rebuilt it, or are you just now finishing the build?

Cheers...Joe
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 03:59:12 PM by CBJoe »
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Offline Sporkfly

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Re: Coil Problems? Or Points?
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2008, 04:22:31 PM »
I'd still say try running it without the cap on. Think of your tank like a bottle with water in it, if you put a very tiny hole in the cap of the bottle and squeeze water out it will take some time before pressure equalizes again and the bottle is back to its normal state. Now the difference is the gas tank has two areas it can equalize pressure from - the carbs and the atmosphere through the pin hole in the gas cap. This will keep vacuum on the carbs/petcock/fuel line and prevent fuel from flowing to the carbs and also will be pulling air from the pin hole in the gas cap. The vent on the gas cap is very small and be plugged really easily. Dust and dirt build up, a little bit of corrosion and some gummy gas will definitely plug it and give you similar symptoms.

Edit: Yep, that's what I'm getting at.
1977 CB550K
1979 GL1000 - Current project, winter '09-'10
1979 CX500
1976 Suzuki GT500 Titan

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Coil Problems? Or Points?
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2008, 04:56:11 PM »
Pretty rare BOTH coils would quit at the same temp.

Have you tested for spark when they are hot?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Coil Problems? Or Points?
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2008, 05:06:29 PM »
The vent is in the Gas cap.  You should be able to blow through it.  If not, clear the small hole.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline goon 1492

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Re: Coil Problems? Or Points?
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2008, 09:26:57 AM »
You wouldn't happen to have in inline fuel filter....this will cause a similar problem once theres a air bubble in it.....If not its gotta be the as cap cause like said above it sounds like a fuel hungry problem, my bike acts like this when I'm on the the outer highway road and I turn off the fuel to run whats in the bowls out and when they get low the bike does the same along with a little popping from getting lean....lets me know the fuel bowls are almost empty...
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Offline dusterdude

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Re: Coil Problems? Or Points?
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2008, 01:30:17 PM »
find a way to blow something cold on the coils after the bike quits running,the coolness will allow electricity to flow thru them.
mark
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Offline Sporkfly

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Re: Coil Problems? Or Points?
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2008, 01:34:30 PM »
You could get some freeze spray if you still suspect coils. And, if you're still blaming coils a way you can test is check the resistance before running, when it quits and when you can get it running again. Or, a spark tester when it stops running. If you have spark when it quits you're back to fuel.
1977 CB550K
1979 GL1000 - Current project, winter '09-'10
1979 CX500
1976 Suzuki GT500 Titan

Offline Sporkfly

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Re: Coil Problems? Or Points?
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2008, 02:57:58 PM »
No, not running. Remove the wires and heat the coils with a blow dryer or heat gun. Check for an increase in resistance.
1977 CB550K
1979 GL1000 - Current project, winter '09-'10
1979 CX500
1976 Suzuki GT500 Titan

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Coil Problems? Or Points?
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2008, 03:14:47 PM »
See the ignition FAQ for checking coils:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=5752.msg8383#msg8383

Personally, I think the suspicion the coils fail with heat is a red herring.  But, you get to spend your time where you see fit.

More likely your points settings are off or your spark plugs are fouling.


Oh, and don't blame the machine for your mechanic's shortcomings.  Getting pissed only affects you.  Doesn't do a thing to make the machine work. ;D

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline acaruth

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Re: Coil Problems? Or Points?
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2008, 03:17:44 PM »
CB750WR, that's a pretty nice bike you got there in your sig. Any higher resolution pics to share?

Offline Sporkfly

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Re: Coil Problems? Or Points?
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2008, 03:32:06 PM »
See the ignition FAQ for checking coils:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=5752.msg8383#msg8383

Personally, I think the suspicion the coils fail with heat is a red herring.  But, you get to spend your time where you see fit.

More likely your points settings are off or your spark plugs are fouling.

TT, maybe you could explain this a little for my curiosity. Why, with points being off or fouling plugs, would the bike start back up after about an hour of sitting? Maybe I'm showing my ignorance, but new knowledge is good knowledge.
1977 CB550K
1979 GL1000 - Current project, winter '09-'10
1979 CX500
1976 Suzuki GT500 Titan

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Coil Problems? Or Points?
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2008, 06:10:17 PM »
TT, maybe you could explain this a little for my curiosity. Why, with points being off or fouling plugs, would the bike start back up after about an hour of sitting? Maybe I'm showing my ignorance, but new knowledge is good knowledge.

There is a lot of data the poster isn't telling us about his bike and it's condition.  So, we are forced to speculate about "what could be".

For example we still don't know if his battery is fully charged, or if the bike is charging it properly.   The battery will recover some voltage on it own by just sitting.
We don't know the condition of his points, if it's ever had a tuneup, are the plugs fouled, do the plug boots have the right resistance, etc.

So, let's say his battery is low, he isn't revving enough to keep the battery peaked, the spark plugs have carbon deposits, his condensers are leaky, his spark plug boots have high resistance or are open, and his points have crusty resistive deposits, the contact surfaces.

All this adds up to is marginal spark to start with, and as the battery depletes there is suddenly not enough voltage to the coils to make spark.  Letting it sit allows the chemicals in the battery to redistribute and raise the voltage enough to get it to spark again.

In short:
1.  Carbon deposits on the spark plug insulators bleed off the coil charge, requiring a higher voltage to jump the gap.
2.  Crusty points and leaky condensers diminish the voltage to the coils, so the stored energy is lower than it should be.
3.  Extra resistance and gaps in the HV leads require higher voltage to make the spark jump ALL the gaps.
4.  A marginally charged or depleted battery will lower the spark energy available by depriving of charge power to the coils.

We haven't been told the tune up history of the bike.  Numbers 1 & 2 above are usually handled with a good tuneup that it is suppossed to have every 3000 miles.

A multimeter on the battery would tell us the state of charge off the battery.

We also don't know if he has added high watt headlight or other "upgrades" that use extra power from the battery or if he is keeping the RPMs above 2000 to charge the battery in driving operation.
We don't know if he has a marginal charging system that isn't keeping the battery fully charged.

But, this is all speculation, as there just isn't any hard data to support or deny of these "theories".  Lot's of unknowns.  We don't even know the condition of the spark plugs, where the deposit are a direct indication of whatever run condition are present (or absent).

Cheers,


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Sporkfly

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Re: Coil Problems? Or Points?
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2008, 07:41:36 PM »
Good deal, thanks for that TT, always nice to read your insight. And like you said, we are speculating quite a bit here. A bit more info would be great so this could be resolved.

By the way, how are you feeling now? Hope you're doing better.
1977 CB550K
1979 GL1000 - Current project, winter '09-'10
1979 CX500
1976 Suzuki GT500 Titan

Offline dpen

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Re: Coil Problems? Or Points?
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2008, 03:38:33 AM »
Painted the tank with the fuel cap on?
  my moneys' on the blocked vent