Author Topic: skinheads and symbolism and #$%*  (Read 5234 times)

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Offline cafeviking

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skinheads and symbolism and #$%*
« on: October 23, 2008, 03:47:02 PM »
So, I'm really curious. What's behind all the swastikas and SS (and iron cross) designs in the chopper community? Is it supposed to look badass? Is it actually a racist statement? Is it homage to vintage chopper/mc/gang culture of yesteryear? Is it meant to be ironic, and humorous? I don't understand why exactly there is so much nazi and racist #$%* in certain bike culture. Even if you go to a very public custom bike show you'll see nazi and racist #$%*. Thoughts? Ideas?

Offline tramp

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Re: skinheads and symbolism and #$%*
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2008, 04:19:53 PM »
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: skinheads and symbolism and #$%*
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2008, 04:25:27 PM »
The Iron Cross has been around since the 1960's. The Swastika is just offensive.
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Offline cafeviking

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Re: skinheads and symbolism and #$%*
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2008, 05:57:06 PM »
Swastikas would make sense if they were more or less just to be offensive. It's a good way to piss off a bunch of peoploe or feel like you're being rebellious, in a way, I guess. I've seen Japanese with swastikas, which would defy it's contemporary sybolism. The Iron Cross had something to do with resisting napoleon (prussia). The SS lighting bolts meant you had killed or attempted to kill for your chapter (HAMC) but I see them used all over everywhere. I don't know what that's supposed to mean. I guess it's to be shocking? Or else is racism supposed to still be cool in the HAMC and other circles? Banditos formed against the all-white rule. 

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Re: skinheads and symbolism and #$%*
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2008, 06:06:46 PM »
I always gathered from reading that its use in the 60's was simply driven mostly to just shock people. (at least from what I have read)

I don't really think its called for now.

Funny thing is a lot of the bikers would make out with each other to shock "the squares" too. I wonder why they don't do that too...  ;D
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Offline cafeviking

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Re: skinheads and symbolism and #$%*
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2008, 06:21:18 PM »
I always gathered from reading that its use in the 60's was simply driven mostly to just shock people. (at least from what I have read)

I don't really think its called for now.

Funny thing is a lot of the bikers would make out with each other to shock "the squares" too. I wonder why they don't do that too...  ;D

Oh yeah, that's right. I read that I think in HST's book. Funny.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: skinheads and symbolism and #$%*
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2008, 06:41:00 PM »
The swastika (from Sanskrit: svástika स्वस्तिक ) is an equilateral cross with its arms bent at right angles, in either right-facing (卐) form or its mirrored left-facing (卍) form. The swastika can also be drawn as a traditional swastika, but with a second 90° bend in each arm.

Archaeological evidence of swastika-shaped ornaments dates from the Neolithic period. An ancient symbol, it occurs mainly in the cultures that are in modern day India and the surrounding area, sometimes as a geometrical motif (as in the Roman Republic and Empire) and sometimes as a religious symbol. It was long widely used in major world religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism.

Though once commonly used all over much of the world without stigma, because of its iconic usage in Nazi Germany, the symbol has become controversial in the Western world.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

The Iron Cross (a black four-pointed cross with white trim, with the arms widening towards the ends, similar to a cross pattée), was designed by the neoclassical architect Karl Friedrich Schinkel and reflects the cross borne by the Teutonic Knights in the 14th century, which was also the emblem of Frederick the Great.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Cross
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Offline cafeviking

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Re: skinheads and symbolism and #$%*
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2008, 06:52:35 PM »
I'm familiar with the origins of the swastika. I just wonder if the message is inherently racist or crudely inflammatory or ironic these days. The origin of the SS symbol sure isn't sanskrit : )

I believe they've found the swastika motif used by old central/eastern American plains indians too.

Offline cafeviking

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Re: skinheads and symbolism and #$%*
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2008, 07:06:02 PM »
This is a japanese bike. . .



Offline nickjtc

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Re: skinheads and symbolism and #$%*
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2008, 09:07:42 PM »
Is it supposed to look badass?

I thought that most things to do with the cruiser/chopper sub-culture were designed to make the rider appear as a badass. Personally I think that a lot of the time they end up just looking like a bunch of wankers, almost parodying the image they try to project.

As to the symbolism of the Iron Cross or the swastika...................well, anything that contributes to the image has got to be good, hasn't it? I suspect that most of these cretins have not got any idea of the history of the swastika, or the discomfort it causes to people who can remember the atrocities perpetrated by the Nazis.
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Offline Ecosse

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Re: skinheads and symbolism and #$%*
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2008, 10:15:02 PM »
As far as (what I assume are) the youth of Japan using the swastika: the full weight of something like Nazism and the Holocaust has a tendency to be lost through the generations. History dilutes over time to the point where certain young members of the royal family (Harry what were you thinking?) dress up in SS uniforms for Halloween not considering the potential response. All they know is that 'they' were bad asses from a long time ago.


Oh, with regards to vikingcafe's remarks, if I understand it correctly, note that the Japanese were rather chummy with the Nazis. Not being preachy or trying to suggest contemporary Japanese are buying into the Hitler thing, but just wanna point that out.
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Offline cafeviking

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Re: skinheads and symbolism and #$%*
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2008, 10:30:02 PM »
Oh, with regards to vikingcafe's remarks, if I understand it correctly, note that the Japanese were rather chummy with the Nazis. Not being preachy or trying to suggest contemporary Japanese are buying into the Hitler thing, but just wanna point that out.

That's why I see it almost as more acceptable (but not really, if you want to get into it) in Japanese culture than American culture. a) Japanese are a racial minority as considered by the largely caucasoid mainlands of N America and Europe and probably, gee, not in any way sympathetic or affiliated with neo nazis. Badabap-tshhhh. b) because the Imperial Japanese Army was indeed chummy with the Nazis to a degree. Arguably because they shared a common goal. Despite viewing each other as future enemies form the beginning they believed similarly, from my understanding, in eugenics and racial supremacy. So in japanese culture the nazi stuff can be played out in an ironic and "badass" sense. It bothers me much less there.

but I still wonder what people think they're saying by playing around with nazi symbolism. Is it the intense nationalism that's romantic? Is it white-supremacy?

Offline Ecosse

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Re: skinheads and symbolism and #$%*
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2008, 12:29:27 AM »
Oh, with regards to vikingcafe's remarks, if I understand it correctly, note that the Japanese were rather chummy with the Nazis. Not being preachy or trying to suggest contemporary Japanese are buying into the Hitler thing, but just wanna point that out.

That's why I see it almost as more acceptable (but not really, if you want to get into it) in Japanese culture than American culture. a) Japanese are a racial minority as considered by the largely caucasoid mainlands of N America and Europe and probably, gee, not in any way sympathetic or affiliated with neo nazis. Badabap-tshhhh. b) because the Imperial Japanese Army was indeed chummy with the Nazis to a degree. Arguably because they shared a common goal. Despite viewing each other as future enemies form the beginning they believed similarly, from my understanding, in eugenics and racial supremacy. So in japanese culture the nazi stuff can be played out in an ironic and "badass" sense. It bothers me much less there.

but I still wonder what people think they're saying by playing around with nazi symbolism. Is it the intense nationalism that's romantic? Is it white-supremacy?


I think you hit it spot on about the Nazi/ Imperial Japan front. I think judging from what I have heard coming out of people's mouths, it's (the display or wearing of Nazi, generally offensive, et al) some sliver (or more) of actual racism. But with other people I tend to lump them into the same lot as the Goth college student and 'devil' worshiper; that is to say they really don't comprehend what it is they're messing with. Faced with the true evil of either satanism or Nazism many of these "badasses" would pee their pants. With this group more than the former it's for shock value.

As a whiskey swilling young party animal I had a belt buckle of the Confederate flag. For me, it represented rebellion in general; I live in a very Leftist area and part of me was rebelling against that because of the abject hypocrisy and other flaws I witnessed and the (contemporary) south represented traditional values (sans racism) as I knew it, I had first hand experience of the south so it wasn't just some abstract fantasy. Some of wearing that was for shock value. like Brando "what are ya rebelling against Johnny? Whaddya got?" I was a loose cannon. No hot chick, Harley, or stolen trophy though. There was no racist feelings; I had several buddies who are black, my first crush was on a black girl, and my brother is biracial. 

But, as I grew older and calmer and developed a more sophisticated understanding of that flags impact socially I chose to stop wearing it. I don't immediately condemn someone if they choose to wear it however. But I do have to wonder just a bit what they must be thinking. I wore that buckle for shock and symbolism.

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Offline nickjtc

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Re: skinheads and symbolism and #$%*
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2008, 08:11:21 AM »
.......the full weight of something like Nazism and the Holocaust has a tendency to be lost through the generations. History dilutes over time........ 

Precisely.
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Offline my78k

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Re: skinheads and symbolism and #$%*
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2008, 08:44:30 AM »
For some I suppose that is true.

I can guarantee you though that it's significance will never be lost on me or my children. My grandfather spent quite a long time as a German POW in WWII. He was fighting against them for a reason!

Actually, at the end of the war upon his release alot of the POWs and guards swapped items as for (lack of a better term) keepsakes. He actually kept one of the arm bands from one of the guards with the Swastika. Maybe I should wear that when riding to increase my badass factor  ::)  ::)

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Re: skinheads and symbolism and #$%*
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2008, 10:14:43 AM »
Maybe I should wear that when riding to increase my badass factor  ::)  ::)

Or maybe not. ;) ;)
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Offline cleveland

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Re: skinheads and symbolism and #$%*
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2008, 12:46:44 PM »

Actually, at the end of the war upon his release alot of the POWs and guards swapped items as for (lack of a better term) keepsakes. He actually kept one of the arm bands from one of the guards with the Swastika. Maybe I should wear that when riding to increase my badass factor  ::)  ::)

Dennis

Wow!  It's good to hear that his sacrifice was not forgotten.  I often wonder what my great grand father would think of me riding a Jap bike. 

Offline Ecosse

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Re: skinheads and symbolism and #$%*
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2008, 12:59:42 PM »
At the risk of over generalizing; I sometimes wonder why so many Hog riders seem to have such a seething and pathological hatred for "Jap-crap" bikes yet rarely do you hear them deriding BMW's and Ducati's. At all these drug infused, creepy biker chick festooned, rally's where they set fire to a pile if foreign bikes, how many being destroyed aren't Japanese? Odd.
 
 
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: skinheads and symbolism and #$%*
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2008, 03:10:07 PM »
At the risk of over generalizing; I sometimes wonder why so many Hog riders seem to have such a seething and pathological hatred for "Jap-crap" bikes yet rarely do you hear them deriding BMW's and Ducati's.

Well, that's easy.  HD was nearly put out of business by the Japanese bikes, not the Bmers or Ducs.

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Offline cafeviking

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Re: skinheads and symbolism and #$%*
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2008, 03:45:31 PM »
At the risk of over generalizing; I sometimes wonder why so many Hog riders seem to have such a seething and pathological hatred for "Jap-crap" bikes yet rarely do you hear them deriding BMW's and Ducati's.

Well, that's easy.  HD was nearly put out of business by the Japanese bikes, not the Bmers or Ducs.

Cheers,

Because HD decided NOT to unveil the inline four that they had ALREADY designed, right? They thought it would flop? I'm not SURE about this, I just think it I recall reading about it.



Offline Ecosse

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Re: skinheads and symbolism and #$%*
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2008, 05:10:50 PM »
At the risk of over generalizing; I sometimes wonder why so many Hog riders seem to have such a seething and pathological hatred for "Jap-crap" bikes yet rarely do you hear them deriding BMW's and Ducati's.

Well, that's easy.  HD was nearly put out of business by the Japanese bikes, not the Bmers or Ducs.

Cheers,

Ya know... that thought never occurred to me; do you think that's been a motivating factor with the owners versus the manufacturers?
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: skinheads and symbolism and #$%*
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2008, 07:55:57 PM »
At the risk of over generalizing; I sometimes wonder why so many Hog riders seem to have such a seething and pathological hatred for "Jap-crap" bikes yet rarely do you hear them deriding BMW's and Ducati's.

Well, that's easy.  HD was nearly put out of business by the Japanese bikes, not the Bmers or Ducs.

Cheers,

Ya know... that thought never occurred to me; do you think that's been a motivating factor with the owners versus the manufacturers?

Other governments, such as Japan, subsidize certain industries to allow them to grow and be profitable long term (good for local economy).  They did this successfully in the 80s with the memory chip market, allowing manufacturers to dump cheap memory chips into the market place at below cost that American manufacturers couldn't hope to compete (having no alternate source of income other than sales of product).  American memory chip manufacturers went out of business, leaving the Japanese manufacturers the only source.  Then they could set their own prices for quite high profitability, since they now had the market cornered.  Memory prices went up at least 4 fold, after the competition was eliminated and their competing production facilities were dismantled.

The import restrictions on Japanese motorcycles mostly prevented the Japanese from cornering the Motorcycle market, and kept HD making motorcycles, till they could make a more attractive product for their own survival.
HD was the last American motorcycle producer.  I've no doubt that WWII created a lot of anti-Japanese sentiment.  There is plenty of historical evidence to justify these feelings, too.  Trying to take over American manufacturing just added to the resentment which naturally extended to Japanese products in the USA.

In the 80's, HD had NO technology advances or advantage over the Japanese MCs.  HD had bumbling management, and a constant turnover of shareholders, totally disinterested in the motorcycle market outside of making a buck.  Certainly no visionaries were in the forefront or in any position to steer the company towards improving their product.  The immediate bottom line was where the MBAs in control had the primary interest, and if the quick buck couldn't be made, then either sell the company, or dismantle it to make maximum profit on the remaining assets.  There are plenty of parallels in American Company business practices. 
The ideology was vastly different in Japan, as the long view was considered far more important than short term profit.

I'm sure others will see it differently.  ::)

I actually always wanted an HD.  I like working on machines, and I'm sure I'd have had plenty of that owning an HD.  But, even one that was in baskets sold for 10 times the price of a single working Honda.  Economics won me over.  And, being a technocrat, new technology and capability always had more fascination than simply having big iron.

When you can take a 550cc 4 cyl and outdistance a 1200 twin, and then still have it running 20-30 years afterwards, with only routine maintenance, it tells me I made the right choice in 1975.  NO Harley of that era would still be useful today without several overhauls and 5 times the purchase price to keep it functional.  It's been awhile, but I believe that first SOHC4 Honda cost me $800 to begin the odyssey in 1975.  How much would a 1974 HD have cost me to go 45000 miles?  I don't know.  But, I bet it would have been far more than my entire collection today.

Certainly there will be lot's of disagreement with my reasoning.  But, hey, I gotta be me!

Cheers,


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Offline pdxPope

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Re: skinheads and symbolism and #$%*
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2008, 08:12:14 PM »
Quote
Actually, at the end of the war upon his release alot of the POWs and guards swapped items as for (lack of a better term) keepsakes. He actually kept one of the arm bands from one of the guards with the Swastika.


Wow, all my grandfather got to keep were those cool numbers tattooed on his forearm.

 :(

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Offline nickjtc

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Re: skinheads and symbolism and #$%*
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2008, 11:12:23 PM »
What TT said, ditto. The problem with the equation is that riders look for the 'visceral' advantages of the ride. A sohc is the ultimate ride. What I've written about Sophie attests to that. However, to the new breed (and actually many older riders, for that matter) it's all about 'presence'. A big v-twin blatting down the road (possibly with obnoxiously loud pipes) will always have more 'persona' than a sohc. And you can argue about reliability and what-not until you are blue in the face........

80% of the HDs built since 1985 are still on the road. The other 20% made it home. Sorry, I just had to throw that in.....
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Offline DollarBill

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Re: skinheads and symbolism and #$%*
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2008, 03:44:17 PM »
On the swastika, I recently made a comment in this thread http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=42311.0 about Cycle X selling that crap and was surprised at a couple of the responses.  Here's one:

"I've never seen those before.  Undecided  I guess it comes down to selling what sells.

Keep in mind we ride a bike designed by the same generation of Japs that bombed Pear Harbor.  I guess it's all relative."


I don't think it is one bit relative.  The German swastika is what it is...period.  When 6 million plus people die in the name of that symbol there is no minimizing it in my opinion.  If Cycle X is only selling them because they sell then they will never have my business because it tells me a great deal about their character.  I didn't respond again to that thread because I just didn't want to get into it but I saw this thread today and figured I'd add my two cents.

Another reply from that thread...
"I think the patches thing has been taken way out of context....

Sure there's SS and swastika patches for sale, but it looks to me that they are NOS stuff from the 70's....

Meaning that they aren't reproductions and are up for sale as "collectible" accessories."


Can you really take German swastika patches out of context???  I guess because they might be NOS stuff from the 70s that makes it okay to collect them???  Not in my opinion.  I wouldn't buy a grand dragon KKK hood from the 60s because I thought it was collectible.  It's despicable no matter whether it is a collectible or not.

I imagine there are millions of Jews on this planet that feel the same way.

Maybe those two responses were from people that like dealing with Cycle X or know the owners so they were trying to minimize it....I don't know.  I just know that Nazi stuff rubs me the wrong way.

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