Topic: skinheads and symbolism and #$%*

[Bonafide]

is this really any different than people wearing those ridiculous reproduction WWII German Army looking helmets? Same thing as far as I'm concerned. Morons think they're cool looking. My advice, stay clear of morons - their stupidy can result in collateral damage.

[754]

TT, in late 76 a buddy traded his bike for a 76 superglide..

In the next few years we rode all over the place, a few of us on Honda 750,s.. As I recall we did not have to wait for him to keep up on the road, and he did not do too much to the motor (over 30K miles or more).. At any rate, it did not cost him much to keep it running.

 He still has it today, and was riding it around in Australia.. it certainly has not been a money losing deal for him.. in fact it is only in the last years that ours became worth again what they cost new..

[cleveland]

Keep in mind we ride a bike designed by the same generation of Japs that bombed Pear Harbor.  I guess it's all relative."

I don't think it is one bit relative.  The German swastika is what it is...period. 

The Japs fought on the same side as the Nazi's, how is that not relative? 

The guys that wears the Nazi patches or SS helmets are not Nazi's and frankly who cares what these idiots do?  As it was said before, it's for shock value. 


 

[nickjtc]

stay clear of morons - their stupidy can result in collateral damage.

Unless the Darwin principle takes care of them, that is.

[DollarBill]

The Japanese were our enemy at the time but they did not take part in the atrocities of the Nazi party.  The world does not recognize the Japanese Zero as a symbol of the holocaust.

There are still supports of the Nazi party today...namely skinheads and members of the aryan brotherhood.  Both of those groups are often the perpetrators of hate crimes.  Don't forget the American Nazi Party http://www.americannaziparty.com/about/index.php  I think the link at the bottom of the page says it all, "Download Adolf Hitler's masterpiece Mein Kampf here".  It's not for shock value for these people.  

There may be people that wear it for shock value but whether they like it or not the meaning cannot be separated from the symbol.  If you wear it people are going to associate you with Nazis, racism, and violence.

That's just the way I feel about it...  

[cafeviking]

Keep in mind we ride a bike designed by the same generation of Japs that bombed Pear Harbor.  I guess it's all relative."

I don't think it is one bit relative.  The German swastika is what it is...period. 

The Japs fought on the same side as the Nazi's, how is that not relative? 

Oh, well then lets get into VW then.

Various gun mfg's too.

I'm sure they should all be lumped together under the ideals and violence perpetrated by perverted local nationalism.

It's not relevant (jap bikes and swastikas).

[mark]

The Japanese were our enemy at the time but they did not take part in the atrocities of the Nazi party....  

Huh?  Okay, so they didn't turn 6,000,000 Koreans into air pollution - but - they did use every other atrocity in the book. Even the nazis stopped short of performing their 'medical experiments' on Allied POWs - not so for the Japs.

[cleveland]

The Japanese were our enemy at the time but they did not take part in the atrocities of the Nazi party.... 

Huh?  Okay, so they didn't turn 6,000,000 Koreans into air pollution - but - they did use every other atrocity in the book. Even the nazis stopped short of performing their 'medical experiments' on Allied POWs - not so for the Japs.

Of course you would say that.  You have Hitler right there in your avatar. 

It's not relevant (jap bikes and swastikas).

Well, that's one perspective. 

[rhos1355]

The Japanese were our enemy at the time but they did not take part in the atrocities of the Nazi party.  

I wish you would read your history before you write such stupid remarks!
Tens of thousands of allied pow's died of hunger and maltreatment whilst in the care of the Japanese Army. I suppose you think they all staged a hunger strike or infected themselves with typhoid and dysentry or malaria at the nice holiday camps in the jungle built for them by other pows. Oh yes, look, they had nothing to do all day except lie in their bunks waiting for the next roll call, so the nicey wicey japanese soldiers organised little work parties. Like build a railroad with your bare hands.
Don't tell me you've never heard of the film "Bridge on the River Kwai"??

[DollarBill]

The Japanese were our enemy at the time but they did not take part in the atrocities of the Nazi party.  

I wish you would read your history before you write such stupid remarks!
Tens of thousands of allied pow's died of hunger and maltreatment whilst in the care of the Japanese Army. I suppose you think they all staged a hunger strike or infected themselves with typhoid and dysentry or malaria at the nice holiday camps in the jungle built for them by other pows. Oh yes, look, they had nothing to do all day except lie in their bunks waiting for the next roll call, so the nicey wicey japanese soldiers organised little work parties. Like build a railroad with your bare hands.
Don't tell me you've never heard of the film "Bridge on the River Kwai"??

Wow you really jumped me on that one. I did not say the Japanese military did not do awful things.  I said they did not take part in the atrocities of the Nazi party....meaning the holocaust.  You are right rhost1355 that they did horrible, horrible things with POWs.  Does that mean our 60s and 70s Hondas carry the blood of those men?  Does it mean Soichiro Honda is an evil man?

How does Japan fighting in the war with Germany make the Honda Motor Company and the bikes we ride that were produced two decades after the war relative to swastikas?  That's what this discussion is about.

[eldar]

So if I take a swastika and turn it back the way it was, then it is ok right? After all it was a religious symbol before the nazis used it. What I do not get is that you think the important part is the number of people killed. Just because it was 6 million, that makes it worse than anything else in history?

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/bosnia.htm
this conflict has been going in spurts for a very long time.

How about the genocide in darfur? Is that somehow less important than the jews?

the number should not matter, nor should the religion. What matter is that people are being killed by people and THAT is the REAL atrocity. And it is one that has been happening LONG before hitler. So maybe you should get some perspective.
Our british allies killed countless people in their building of their empire.

[TwoTired]

So, let's see if I follow this discussion so far...

1. The swastika (despite it long historical use with a different meaning), represents 6 million Jews killed due to ethnicity.  (But, of course, not any other ethnic group or persons that got in the Nazi party way.)
2. The Japanese flag actually represents all those races killed and tortured who weren't Japanese.

So, along that line of reasoning, I suppose the American flag must then represent all those Non-Americans who have been killed in every war or conflict since its acceptance as a governmental symbol.

Does the Stars and stripes (to you) mean the death of the British, French, Mexicans, Koreans, Cubans, Germans, Italians, Japanese, those from the Confederate States, Granadans, Hawains, Vietnamese, Russians, Chinese, Laoatians, Panamanians, Afganians, and 100's of American Indian tribes?

What retribution do you think an American child of the late 40's and 50's should be made to bear for these atrocities?

 

[my78k]

Good point TT although I would venture to guess that in some parts of the world they might just view it as such. Like everything else I guess perspective is everything...

Dennis

[cafeviking]

So if I take a swastika and turn it back the way it was, then it is ok right? After all it was a religious symbol before the nazis used it. What I do not get is that you think the important part is the number of people killed. Just because it was 6 million, that makes it worse than anything else in history?

I understand your point and we can get technical as all get out but what it comes down to, in less than math, is that the swastika has become iconic of hatred and violence. Bottom line. I think this is the way most of us feel, and because we find this particular slice of history abhorrent does not at all cheapen how we may regard other violent regimes.


Also, both the eastern plains indians swastika and the hindu swastika are discernibly different than the Nazi swastika (regardless of direction) and to defend it as an ancient symbol is totally ridiculous. If you wore a hindu swastika with a right mind about it (IE not next to your SS patch), it would be arguably less inflammatory.

[DollarBill]

I'm not fixated on a number just trying to illustrate a point and using an example that goes with the topic of the swastika. I think cafeviking did a better job of than I did of explaining when he stated

I understand your point and we can get technical as all get out but what it comes down to, in less than math, is that the swastika has become iconic of hatred and violence. Bottom line. I think this is the way most of us feel, and because we find this particular slice of history abhorrent does not at all cheapen how we may regard other violent regimes.

Well put. 

[eldar]

Maybe so but why do people see it worse? THAT is the question. Why is that worse than any other mass murder in history?
See, people DO need to keep it relative. Also, you have to realize that some people are not going to see it so bad or just do not care. Do you think the bosnians that have been driven from their country or die, really care about the symbolism of the swastika? I mean, going about it so blindly, a person may as well say ALL germans are bad then.
Is the kkk hood just as bad? Well it should be. It is just as much of a symbol of mans injustice to other men.
how about the predations of ancient rome?

[cafeviking]

You're using the relativity of others and neglecting to apply what is relative to us. In this case, we are speaking on the consciousness of Americans today. There are a number of reasons why a collective American consciousness is unable or unwilling to see your examples quite as prevalent or pertinent as the Nazi situation. I would suspect reason number one being public education, and media being a close second. In basic public forums, including education, we simply don't learn much about the balkan states, nor the african ones, or the southeast asian ones. The thing about the Nazis is that they have become a one-stop institution for creating a number of lessons. One being awareness of what dictatorships and fascism can achieve and, perhaps slightly nationalistically, that without the US they could be left to gain super power or metastasize globally. The Nazis also serve as a nice little nutshell that we use to punctuate ourselves as righteous and well-meaning without delving into what really goes on around the world. And, for most Americans, I think this is sufficient. You can't expect people to understand fascism to a degree in which they are able to take in complicated scenarios beyond the simplicity of Hitler's. Fascism sure is greek to me. I like to educate myself about global injustices but a particular, contemporary breed of apathy prevents most people I know from seeking out this information.

[Bodi]

Regarding the Japanese bike, I saw swastikas fairly often in Japan. On Buddhist temples and some grave stones.
The nazis used it, sure... but they don't have a monopoly.
I don't know why the bike is covered in them, but there are alternative reasons that to shock the world with nazi regalia.
The germans were neither the first or last to use genocide.

[eldar]

So really the nazis were not so bad. It is just that is all people really know about? Is that mainly what you are saying? If so, then live here among the bosnians for a while. See the US knows germany as people are still alive from that time AND we hear about it or there is some movie on tv every year. Granted we should not forget but we also should not forget about other happenings just as bad. We ALL know about the kkk but as it took place HERE, it is a touchy subject and is still alive and well. the kkk may not gather anymore but the thoughts and feelings they had are still just as alive in some areas.
I think the problem is that we hear too much about the holocaust and not enough about past histories and even current events. I mean, there has been a large number of people killed in darfur but the media does not report on it. So of course most americans will not know anything about it. That does not make it less wrong. So it IS all relative. Relative in the fact that it is wrong and neither is less wrong than another.

[cafeviking]

So really the nazis were not so bad. It is just that is all people really know about? Is that mainly what you are saying?

Ridiculous. Did you even read what I wrote?

It's only natural that Americans are going to have a limited understanding of the world that starts with the big shiny Nazis and their excellent design department.

[eldar]

Maybe I should have said the nazis were bad but so were the other, people mainly just know about the nazis.

But in no way are the nazis worse as it is all horrible.

[PxTx]

Title is a little misleading.  Not all skinheads are racist, and they did not start off that way.

QFT  http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/8592/sh.html

[Bonafide]

Title is a little misleading.  Not all skinheads are racist, and they did not start off that way.

BRAHAHAH .. yeah, but the non-racist skinheads are called "bald white guys."

[cafeviking]

Never heard of SHARP?

[my78k]

Well....I won't comment on whether most skin heads are racist. I will however ask if anyone happened to hear about the Obama assassination attempt? They were hoping to take him out along with 20-30 other black people. Sounds like it was planned by some of those really nice friendly types of skin heads!

Oh and by the way I am a skin head too but it isn't by choice!!! 10 years of marriage and 2 kids have caused it!

Dennis