Author Topic: I just don't get why it won't work!! Front Brake and Fork questions  (Read 11003 times)

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Offline mlinder

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Re: I just don't get why it won't work!! Front Brake and Fork questions
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2008, 03:06:45 PM »
My front brake is acting much the same way (1978 CB750K)...I gave up and my bike's at the mechanic's right now...is there and after-market caliper option? It really seems to be a crappy front brake design...
Its the first real production bike with a disc. Yeah, it leaves a bit to be desired.
Braided steel lines tend to help their performance and feel.
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Offline manjisann

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Re: I just don't get why it won't work!! Front Brake and Fork questions
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2008, 06:08:57 PM »
Ok, confession time. I think I figured out what some of my problem has been. When I put the fender on, I have had the fender mounting bracket between the fork, and the brake top pivot thing. This has caused the little pipe that feeds the caliper to be very rigid and not allow the brake to swing freely like it should. It has also caused the pads to engage the rotor at a slight angle. Can someone please confirm that the brake arm is supposed to be attached to the fork, and then the fender?

I also and embarrassed to admit, when I realized this, I went out to check and see if I was right. I have been using a bottle jack to lift my bike, because unfortunatley that was all that has been available to me. Thus far I have been really careful to ensure that I wasn't lifting it too high or that the bike started leaning. I must have been a little tired today, but I tipped the bike off the jack and it fell on it's side. The really bad part is the front wheel was not on. I lifted it up so it was right side up and after a lot of work finally managed to get the wheel on. Long story short, I don't think I did any damage, but tomorrow I will be taking the forks off to verify I didn't bend anything, and I will probably be checking to see if my triple tree is still squared up properly.

Fortunately other than a minor foot injury, I am fine. Needless to say I promptly went and bought a proper motorcycle jack. Does anyone know if the heavy duty aluminum motorcycle jack that Harbor Freight sales is any good? It is rated up to 1500 lbs, and was slightly shorter than the other metal one they had, and twice the price but should fit my limited space better. And it had slightly more features than the other one.

Anyhow, I will get my bike lifted tomorrow and hopefully get this all worked out. I am happy to say, that my ego probably has suffered the most damage.

Thanks again everyone for all your help!

Brandon
Sure it's for sale! How much you ask?? Well, how much are you willing to pay??? Now triple it, that's the price!

1973 CB500 K2 - Sold the bike and bought a Mig, Miss the bike, Love the Mig :D
1980 CB650 Custom
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: I just don't get why it won't work!! Front Brake and Fork questions
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2008, 06:20:29 PM »
I'm sorry about the ego thing, those bruises last!  :D

That jack should be fine.

In general, the brake arms attach to the fork, and the fender to the brake parts. Honda has varied this a bit on some designs, but here it should be rigid to the leg, one way or another. The pad tilt isn't much of an issue: the 750 pads are set at 7 degrees to the pad on a stock bike, until the K3. Then it was only about 3 degrees. The difference was in the little tee-shaped pivot bracket they used in the later design. Theoretically, at least, this angle reduces heating and squeaking.  ::)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline crazypj

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Re: I just don't get why it won't work!! Front Brake and Fork questions
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2008, 10:55:47 AM »
Brake goes on first.
That's probably the problem, the pivot.... can't pivot
 If you remove the fender it should be obvious that the brake parts fit flat against the fork leg.
 The only thing that's likely to be bent by bike falling over off 'stand' is the handlebars
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Offline manjisann

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Re: I just don't get why it won't work!! Front Brake and Fork questions
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2008, 06:05:36 PM »
Ahh, the difference a proper jack makes  ;D I put everything back in the proper order and now my brakes work pretty well. It still won't spin a lot, but I am pretty sure the brake isn't dragging any more. Now I just have to figure out the random surge I get, but that can wait till next year when I do a proper tune up.

Thanks again for everyone who helped!!

Brandon
Sure it's for sale! How much you ask?? Well, how much are you willing to pay??? Now triple it, that's the price!

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Offline SKTP

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Re: I just don't get why it won't work!! Front Brake and Fork questions
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2008, 10:08:28 AM »
I hope its cool that I am adding my front brake questions to this tread...After having rebuilt and re-bled my front brake numerous times, I had a mechanic do it for me...it worked awesome for about 8-10miles then...now, its back to being half on all the time...the piston will not go back all the way after some use? What causes this? The brake is clean, the piston was pushed all the way back using a C-clamp and it was seated...?! How do I make it work for longer than 1 day...yarg its driving me crazy...the squeeking is insane!
1978k rebuild thread http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=68423.0
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Offline mlinder

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Re: I just don't get why it won't work!! Front Brake and Fork questions
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2008, 11:25:40 AM »
The pistons not supposed to go back all the way. Theres nothing to 'pull' the piston back in. it backs off slightly because of its contact with the disc.
On most of these bike, the squeeking is going to happen.
Are these new brake pads? If so, were they adjusted to allow for the greater width of new pads?

I had to chamfer and slot my pads to keep them from squeeking on both the 750 and the 350.
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Offline crazypj

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Re: I just don't get why it won't work!! Front Brake and Fork questions
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2008, 06:23:31 PM »
If you needed a 'C' clamp to push piston in its being gripped by the seal too tight.
You did clean out the groove behind seal?
PJ
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Offline manjisann

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Re: I just don't get why it won't work!! Front Brake and Fork questions
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2008, 03:27:52 PM »
Quote
Are these new brake pads? If so, were they adjusted to allow for the greater width of new pads?

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but do you mean thickness of the pads? If so, why would a thicker pad make a difference, wouldn't it just push the piston in a little further than a thinner one?

Quote
I hope its cool that I am adding my front brake questions to this tread

SKTP, feel free  :D  What model of bike do you have? As was mentioned earlier in this post, some of them have the brakes put together differently. Also, between the pad and the piston, do you still have the plastic ring? I would imagine this acts as some sort of cushion/vibration dampener. This is just my two cents, and considering some of the things I admit to in this thread, it may not even be worth that  ;D

Thanks again all.

Brandon.
Sure it's for sale! How much you ask?? Well, how much are you willing to pay??? Now triple it, that's the price!

1973 CB500 K2 - Sold the bike and bought a Mig, Miss the bike, Love the Mig :D
1980 CB650 Custom
1971 CB500 Frame 650 engine: Project

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Offline SKTP

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Re: I just don't get why it won't work!! Front Brake and Fork questions
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2008, 05:54:16 PM »
I have a 1978 CB750K The sweaking is driving me crazy...I have the bike finally looking presentable and it sounds horrible and is terrible to back-up and move around...I am going to get a braided brake line and a new metal brake hose/tube (that part down by the wheel....then re-clean everythign and look for a potential softer pad?

My Dad says I could have a warped brake-disk?

Any threads on "I had to chamfer and slot my pads" (I'm guessing that's chamber) I searched but did not seem to finad any?

Thanks everyone for all of your help
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Offline crazypj

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Re: I just don't get why it won't work!! Front Brake and Fork questions
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2008, 12:51:00 AM »
No, its chamfer, (put an angle on any sharp edges)
 de-glaze the rotor and check fixed pad has 0,006" clearance.
PJ
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Offline mlinder

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Re: I just don't get why it won't work!! Front Brake and Fork questions
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2008, 02:56:10 PM »
Quote
Are these new brake pads? If so, were they adjusted to allow for the greater width of new pads?

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but do you mean thickness of the pads? If so, why would a thicker pad make a difference, wouldn't it just push the piston in a little further than a thinner one?
No, it doesnt just push the piston in a little further.

There is a bolt with a spring that runs between the caliper arm and the fork.
Turning it pushes or pulls the caliper in relation to the disc. As your front pad wears, you should tighten it a bit. With new pads, you have to adjust it. Good luck.

« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 03:03:19 PM by mlinder »
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Offline crazypj

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Re: I just don't get why it won't work!! Front Brake and Fork questions
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2008, 11:22:44 PM »

No, it doesnt just push the piston in a little further.

There is a bolt with a spring that runs between the caliper arm and the fork.
Turning it pushes or pulls the caliper in relation to the disc. As your front pad wears, you should tighten it a bit. With new pads, you have to adjust it. Good luck.


You pull the fixed pad (nearest spokes) to a clearance of 0.006" from rotor.
 I almost never bother to re-adjust them until I'm fitting new pads, never had enough drag from moving pad to bother me or excessive lever travel from pad retracting into caliper

PJ
 
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Offline mlinder

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Re: I just don't get why it won't work!! Front Brake and Fork questions
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2008, 06:04:29 AM »

No, it doesnt just push the piston in a little further.

There is a bolt with a spring that runs between the caliper arm and the fork.
Turning it pushes or pulls the caliper in relation to the disc. As your front pad wears, you should tighten it a bit. With new pads, you have to adjust it. Good luck.


You pull the fixed pad (nearest spokes) to a clearance of 0.006" from rotor.
 I almost never bother to re-adjust them until I'm fitting new pads, never had enough drag from moving pad to bother me or excessive lever travel from pad retracting into caliper

PJ
 

:P
Thats why I asked if his pads were new :)
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Offline crazypj

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Re: I just don't get why it won't work!! Front Brake and Fork questions
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2008, 11:39:07 AM »
 ;D
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Offline manjisann

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Re: I just don't get why it won't work!! Front Brake and Fork questions
« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2008, 06:36:42 AM »
Well my brakes seem to be working awesome now, haven't filled up the tank yet to see if it affected my mpg problem ??? but everything else seems to be great. There is no squeaking until I apply the brakes fairly hard, and while that is a little embarrassing, I think a wreck would be more so ;D The squeaking seems to only happen when it's really cold out, anyone else notice this? Would drilling my rotor and chamfering the holes possibly help with this? I read that the drilled holes help to clean the pads, and also help with stopping power. I know you have to drill them in a fairly specific pattern, and I saw a thread that had some great templates. This is something I would consider for next year, as it is getting a little cold to be doing anything that isn't absolutely necessary. Course, there is always plug in heaters I guess  ;).

Thanks again everyone!

Brandon
Sure it's for sale! How much you ask?? Well, how much are you willing to pay??? Now triple it, that's the price!

1973 CB500 K2 - Sold the bike and bought a Mig, Miss the bike, Love the Mig :D
1980 CB650 Custom
1971 CB500 Frame 650 engine: Project

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: I just don't get why it won't work!! Front Brake and Fork questions
« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2008, 09:00:45 AM »
Considering the increase in this "squeaky brake" syndrome, I wonder...can all of you who are reading this, who also have squeak, tell us which brand of brake pad you are using? I have a suspicion...this bike went through this whole scenario in the 1980s, when asbestos was outlawed, and it was a while before some non-squeak pads appeared, and they were not as cheap as the squeaky ones. Now, with so much junk being made in China, those noisy ones may be back, under various re-labellers...

I also replaced my pads this Spring with some new "generic" ones that I got from an eBay store for $10, as I was out of $$ at the time, for lack of a job then. They have turned out to be VERY squeaky, and no form of (the usual) pad modifications will stop it. The surface of the pads has melted ever so slightly and crystallized the next portion of the pad that will contact the disc, and this is the source of the noise. Severe sanding to remove the glass also removes about 5000 miles of wear depth, and only stops it for a month of commuting (about 1000 miles or so). It is definitely the pad material.

BTW, for reference: here's the operating mechanism of the 750 disc: The clearance between the stationary (inside) pad and disc should be set at about .006" by using the above-pictured adjuster screw and locknut. After about 1,000 miles on new pads, set this again (this was part of Honda's "dealer tuneup" at the 1000 mile mark on these bikes). After that, whenever the moving pad is pressed to the disc, the square cross-section O-ring in the caliper deforms a bit rhombic (it has a reach range of .012"), and the spring force of this O-ring pulls the caliper piston back when the pressure is released. This is unlike many cars, where the disc pushes the pads back, because the thin stainless steel disc of these bikes (and many bikes, for that matter) would warp quickly if the disc had to generate the constant heat of pushing back the puck. (Cars, starting around 1985 or so, adopted this same mechanism, to improve fuel mileage by reducing the disc drag, and to make lighter brakes).

Our aging calipers need some attention to restore this performance, as you will likely find the outside edges of the caliper piston to be something less than smooth: more like corroded. This causes immediate damage to a new O-ring (and old ones, too) that make the ring unable to pull back on the piston. Then, when the push is applied, the piston slips through the O-ring, and cannot pull itself back. In fact, it remains pushing on the puck, with noisy results and drag.

So, what to do? Disassemble the caliper, clean and smooth (don't polish to shiny) the piston's edges. You will see where this O-ring action started, then as the years went by, it has left its mark along the piston as witness marks. You will also likely see that the years of brake fluid absorbing moisture from the air has resulted in corrosion around the back edges of this piston, which is the part that has torn up the O-ring now. Also, the alkaline soap in the high-PSI carwashes will corrode the areas where it enters, like around the puck side of this piston, and the brake puck and caliper's housing. Clean it all.

Finally, take a brake cylinder hone (use the 3-stone, short stone variety) and hone the inside of the caliper where the piston lives, just enough to smooth out the irregularities you will find there. Smooth the outside of the piston with 400 grit, then 1000 grit, emery paper (wet sanding will help). This will reduce further corrosion later. Clean everything well, wet with brake fluid, and reassemble, using a new O-ring. Wipe a SMALL amount of brake grease or anti-seize around the outside of the new brake puck, and make sure it does not bind in the caliper as it moves in & out.

I just bought some new O-rings and caliper pistons, too: they are still available. I have some calipers that were too far gone to be reused on the Hondaman Specials I'm building, so I bought new parts for them, instead. On my own 750, I have used the above-outlined process twice in it's 130,000+ mile-long life (and a few others, not mine), with perfect results. It takes some time, but heck, it's winter, so... :P
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline manjisann

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Re: I just don't get why it won't work!! Front Brake and Fork questions
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2008, 03:19:53 PM »
Quote
Considering the increase in this "squeaky brake" syndrome, I wonder...can all of you who are reading this, who also have squeak, tell us which brand of brake pad you are using?

Mine are Emgo brand, I bought them through Z1 I believe (not that I am trying to associate the pads quality with Z1, just saying where it came from. I am personally a HUGE fan of Z1!!)

As I said, the squeak seems to depend on how cold it is outside, the colder it is the more likely it is to sqeak, at least in the case of my bike.

Thanks,

Brandon
Sure it's for sale! How much you ask?? Well, how much are you willing to pay??? Now triple it, that's the price!

1973 CB500 K2 - Sold the bike and bought a Mig, Miss the bike, Love the Mig :D
1980 CB650 Custom
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Offline ofreen

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Re: I just don't get why it won't work!! Front Brake and Fork questions
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2008, 06:33:01 PM »
Considering the increase in this "squeaky brake" syndrome, I wonder...can all of you who are reading this, who also have squeak, tell us which brand of brake pad you are using?

There is no doubt in my mind that changes in pad compound is the main culprit in front brake squeak.  I never had a significant squeak from the front brake until I installed a set of EBC pads in 1994.  Until that time, I had always used OEM pads and occasionally would get only a mild squeak.  With the EBC pads, a loud squeak started as soon as the pads broke in.  Really obnoxious, painful to me if I wasn't wearing a helmet, and I sure got a lot of dirty looks from people I pulled up next to if their window was rolled down.  (I am sure many of you can relate to that.)  So I soon got another set of OEM pads and life was good again.  Then when those wore out, I got another set of OEM pads.  According to my records, this was in 1998.  As soon as the new OEM pads bedded, they began to squeak just as bad as the old EBC pads.  The new pads had a different appearance than the old pads.  In fact the new pads looked like the EBC pads.  They shared another characteristic with the EBC pads.  I had to fit them to the caliper by grinding around the edge of the steel base.  The steel base is made by punch and die, so was flared on the die side and had a ragged burr.  That was never necessary with the old OEM pads.  I have worn out and installed two other sets of OEM pads since then and they all squeak.

So, I have been putting up with that squeak for the last 10 years.  I have tried all the remedies, and none of them work for long. 
Greg
'75 CB750F

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: I just don't get why it won't work!! Front Brake and Fork questions
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2008, 06:46:36 PM »
Yes, I've had troubles with both EMGO and EBC. No reflection on the sellers, they didn't do it! Ofreen: I think you might be right about the new OEM pads: I bought some off eBay last summer (haven't installed yet) that were reportedly OEM. They matched exactly the EBCs I also have in a package here, too.

For the longest time, there were some "performance" pads that had sintered bronze or copper bits in them. These did not squeak, but cost more, and were a little harder on the disc. My disc is now approaching Honda's wear limit of 5.00mm, probably from using those sintered pads, which were good in the wet. Maybe we should round up all the suspects, and see what kinds of pads are available now?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline crazypj

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Re: I just don't get why it won't work!! Front Brake and Fork questions
« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2008, 08:37:15 PM »
I've found EBC to be real good , but, it depends on where they were made and if they were organic or sintered (usually marked as H or HH)
I haven't seen either listed for about 2 years though only the dark gray with bronze flecks seems available for several different models/marques (not just Honda)
 I guess its only new(er) bikes get a choice
PJ
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Re: I just don't get why it won't work!! Front Brake and Fork questions
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2008, 06:33:42 PM »
I've found EBC to be real good , but, it depends on where they were made and if they were organic or sintered (usually marked as H or HH)
I haven't seen either listed for about 2 years though only the dark gray with bronze flecks seems available for several different models/marques (not just Honda)
 I guess its only new(er) bikes get a choice
PJ

Hey, PJ: where did you see these "H" or "HH" markers? Are they right on the pucks themselves?

I feel a Sherlock-like search coming on...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline crazypj

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Re: I just don't get why it won't work!! Front Brake and Fork questions
« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2008, 09:55:01 PM »
It was only on the packs, I had some in EBC boxes and a couple flat vacuum packed
I think there was a white print on edge but you had to sand edges to make them slide easy.
 I know it wasn't stamped anywhere.
I haven't seen them listed for a few years.
Probably discontinued because most people treat 'classics' gently and don't need (or want) brakes that work much better when hot than they do cold
PJ
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Offline SKTP

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Re: I just don't get why it won't work!! Front Brake and Fork questions
« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2008, 10:43:48 PM »
https://www.partsnmore.com/cat_index.php?model=cb750_sohc&category=chassis

I have these pads...not even 100% sure what they are...I will have to look for the box...currently they squeek like crazy

I know there's a "Where to buy" section in the FAQs but if anybody wants to drops links here where they get pads, that would be much appreciated...thanks
1978k rebuild thread http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=68423.0
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Offline crazypj

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Re: I just don't get why it won't work!! Front Brake and Fork questions
« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2008, 11:31:49 PM »
Harder pads glaze over easier if your not using them hard enough and they squeak bad when glazed ( plus they barely work as stoppers)
PJ
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