Topic: Dragging knee on a stock cb750...

[jhasewhite]

Does anyone do it on the street? (yes I Know it isn't legal)

I did it today accidentally, I usually hang off when I'm going fast and for one magical moment, my right knee kissed the pavement. I was scraping my foot peg and just hung off further to get it off the road. Is this common, or should I chill out and go do a track day?

[JAG]

wow! At any rate, I congratulate you on your "daringness"

I myself, is to chicken sh*t to try to go that fast through any curve, let alone scrap a peg..

Looks like I need to grow some balls, or go through some training classes, to gain some confidence

[UnCrash]

I've dragged my pegs but never my knee.

When I get some stickier tires then lookout!

[MCRider]

Does anyone do it on the street? (yes I Know it isn't legal)

I did it today accidentally, I usually hang off when I'm going fast and for one magical moment, my right knee kissed the pavement. I was scraping my foot peg and just hung off further to get it off the road. Is this common, or should I chill out and go do a track day?

Likely the point to save it for the track. In 1991 accomplished racer Nick Ienatsch wrote a piece called the PACE which is followed by many groups of motorcyclists (myself included) who enjoy spirited street riding but want to avoid the downside. Highly recommended.
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/flashback/122_0911_the_pace_nick_ienatsch/index.html

[JAG]

That's a great read, and where it says, "Cornering momentum is the name of the game, stressing strong, forceful inputs at the handlebar to place the bike correctly at the entrance of the turn and get it flicked in with little wasted time and distance. " is my biggest issue.. Gaining confidence in the bike, and having the ability to read the curve, knowing where to start and where I should end up, by using force (Leaning the bike over) with braking and acceleration is something I haven't quite figured out..  So many times it's the case where I slow way down thinking I cannot make the curve at that speed only to realize I shoudn't have slowed down at all. I should have held the corner, maintained speed and allowed the bike to cruise through the corner..

I suppose it's all about experience, of which I don't have

But I love it nonetheless

[MCRider]

That's a great read, and where it says, "Cornering momentum is the name of the game, stressing strong, forceful inputs at the handlebar to place the bike correctly at the entrance of the turn and get it flicked in with little wasted time and distance. " is my biggest issue.. Gaining confidence in the bike, and having the ability to read the curve, knowing where to start and where I should end up, by using force (Leaning the bike over) with braking and acceleration is something I haven't quite figured out..  So many times it's the case where I slow way down thinking I cannot make the curve at that speed only to realize I shoudn't have slowed down at all. I should have held the corner, maintained speed and allowed the bike to cruise through the corner..

I suppose it's all about experience, of which I don't have

But I love it nonetheless

Yes I have that same problem. I've known riders who had an inborn sense greater than mine. I respond well to being taught, but left on my own I crashed a lot.

THe issue of corner entry speed is one of experience to a large extent. But the intellectual "lightbulb" came on for me when a racer with great intuitiove skills told me " the act of turning in is the same as braking". I learned that throwing it into a turn hard actually scrubs off a lot of speed. So if you brake too much, then throw it into the turn, now all of a sudden you're going way too slow, and you get back on the throttle and unsettle the bike. YOu can really hustle down a country road with very little brake if these things are understood.

Once again unless youre the lucky one to be born with the "feel", it takes experience and preferably on a track with a ambulance close by.

Another concept I was taught, though too late to positively effect my racetrack results, was when I read an article by/about Kenny ROberts. After he (King Kenny) retired he traines lots of racers on his track at his ranch. They rode 100cc "flattrackers" under his watchful eye to gain skills. ANyway, in the article he said: "if you look at the haybales, you'll be in the haybales". That changeds my life. YOu have to look where you want to go, not where you are going. So many highside accidents, mine included occur when one looks to the outside of the curve cuz that's where you are going. If you look to the inside and as Nick "chainsnatch" Iensatch says "trust your tires" you'll make it through the turn even if you thought you were too hot.

 

[JAG]

MCRider1, that's some great insight!!

I love riding so much, I just wish sometimes I could get more out of the times I'm riding through those country back roads...

I've read books like "Twist of the Wrist" and they've helped me out, but typed word and illustration only go so far. Gettin out there and doing it, is where it's at. Something I'm starting to try is going down the same road over and over again. Learning the feel. At first at slow speeds, then gradually going through faster, and faster. I still have a lot to learn though. Especially on the curves that take you from one side to the other i.e. left curve, popping up and then slamming it down to travel into the next one which is a right curve.

Does anyone or do you MCRider1 try to pick your bottom off the seat and position it to the side for the curve you're preparing for? I.E. Left side of the seat, for left turn, and Right side of the seat for right? Or is that just overkill and only when you are on the track??

[Really?]

As a teen, I raced a lot on Angeles Crest, Mulholland Hwy and drive and even on Laurel Canyon Blvd on a 400f and an XS1100 Standard.  I used to slide a cheek over the side I was going into the corner to, lay a knee out and pull in slightly on the handlebar to the opposite direction of the turn.

I was fearless, young and dumb too.  It has taken many years for me to realize that fearlessness can be a form of stupidity.  Personally, I do not even know why I am alive with all the stupid things I would do on a bike.  In fact, after 30 years of riding, I will find myself pushing hard on my 800lb-der and end up putting myself on restriction from the bike for a while.  I start to remember all of the concrete I have eaten and cars and have ran into and banged off of (sideswiping the limo was the best).

Keeping your eyes on where you are going is important.  I sideswiped the limo because of the legs I saw on the corner as i was turning it.

Note that you can play on corners and get the enjoyment out of it a slower pace and you MUST know the road you are riding before you tear into it.  You may easily hit a curve that is too tight for the speed and angle that you are going into it at.

With all that said, reading up on it is a nice thing but training on a track with a good instructor (Kenny Roberts and Eddie Lawson were idols of mine) is what you should look into.  Practice, education and fear are good assets to have.

[JAG]

Practice, education and fear are good assets to have.

I think that sums it all up perfectly! You are very correct, When you no longer have any fear, you tend to lose respect for the bike, and that's when the accidents seem to occur..

[seaweb11]

"Note that you can play on corners and get the enjoyment out of it a slower pace and you MUST know the road you are riding before you tear into it."


 jhasewhite
Move to a small Island

I know it takes forever to heal now so I just like to play in my own backyard. Not to say I don't run out of road every once in a while, but I'm playing at 25-40 mph on hairpins I've been playing on for 7 years   That and the hay trucks are gone, and god bless so are all the tourists

Stay safe

[KB02]

Take an MSF class. Since you are already riding, the intermediate class would be best for you. We tech basic cornering technique.

Once you've got that down, take a Lee Parks total control class. He goes into a more advanced version (don't let either organization fool you, they teach the same thing, just Lee's is a further advanced technique).

So if you brake too much, then throw it into the turn, now all of a sudden you're going way too slow, and you get back on the throttle and unsettle the bike.

That's actually not entirely true. An increase in throttle through a turn will settle the suspension and give a far smother ride through a turn. It's when you let off the throttle (or brake) in the turn that you unsettle the bike. Braking before the turn and then accelerating through it is the way to go.

As for dragging your knee, good for you!!    I've never dragged my knee through a turn, but it is an effective way of getting a tightter turn out of a machine that will only lean over so far with the rider sitting perfectly on top.

[MCRider]

Take an MSF class. Since you are already riding, the intermediate class would be best for you. We tech basic cornering technique.

-Ditto

Once you've got that down, take a Lee Parks total control class. He goes into a more advanced version (don't let either organization fool you, they teach the same thing, just Lee's is a further advanced technique).

-Ditto

So if you brake too much, then throw it into the turn, now all of a sudden you're going way too slow, and you get back on the throttle and unsettle the bike.

That's actually not entirely true. An increase in throttle through a turn will settle the suspension and give a far smother ride through a turn. It's when you let off the throttle (or brake) in the turn that you unsettle the bike. Braking before the turn and then accelerating through it is the way to go.

-Yes not fully explained by me. I'm talking about whamming the throttle back on to catch up to where one wants to be. Your explanation is totally correct with a proper entrance speed. Once the turn initiates, one must roll the throttle on to simply maintain the speed as the lean begins to scrub off speed. By "we teach" I'm assuming you are a MSF instructor? I've taken both courses twice, and defer to you entirely.

As for dragging your knee, good for you!!    I've never dragged my knee through a turn, but it is an effective way of getting a tightter turn out of a machine that will only lean over so far with the rider sitting perfectly on top.

[MCRider]

MCRider1, that's some great insight!!

I love riding so much, I just wish sometimes I could get more out of the times I'm riding through those country back roads...

I've read books like "Twist of the Wrist" and they've helped me out, but typed word and illustration only go so far. Gettin out there and doing it, is where it's at. Something I'm starting to try is going down the same road over and over again. Learning the feel. At first at slow speeds, then gradually going through faster, and faster. I still have a lot to learn though. Especially on the curves that take you from one side to the other i.e. left curve, popping up and then slamming it down to travel into the next one which is a right curve.

Does anyone or do you MCRider1 try to pick your bottom off the seat and position it to the side for the curve you're preparing for? I.E. Left side of the seat, for left turn, and Right side of the seat for right? Or is that just overkill and only when you are on the track??

As others have mentioned, hanging a cheek off is fine, and yes you do it before you initiate the turn. But in doing so, don't give it English (uless you have to). Lean the whole body off the left. You'll see some pictures of riders hanging their left lower body off and then leaning thier upper body to the right. English. I don't think that's optimal. But different strokes.

As Nick mentions, actually hanging out the knee should be left for the track for a few reasons. One is you don't want to appear obvious to others (police) that you may be travelling too fast, and 2 on the street you have to keep something in reserve. That extra turning ability gained by dragging the knee may be it.

Nick thinks as i do if you do everything else properly you will have maximum steet fun without dragging the knee.

One thing to concentrate on is putting weight on the pegs and not the seat. Dirt bikers know, either consciously or intuitively weight on the pegs lowers the center of gravity. Weight on the seat raises the center of gravity.

Also, the whole body experience to the lean. That is a left lean will be pressure on the left peg, travelling up the left side of your body into the left arm where you are pushing on the left handlebar creating the countersteer necessary to lean.  Along with this is dropping the shoulder on the side of the lean. If you aloow that shoulder to rise, you lose the push between the bar and the peg.

[JAG]

MCRider1, that's some great insight!!

I love riding so much, I just wish sometimes I could get more out of the times I'm riding through those country back roads...

I've read books like "Twist of the Wrist" and they've helped me out, but typed word and illustration only go so far. Gettin out there and doing it, is where it's at. Something I'm starting to try is going down the same road over and over again. Learning the feel. At first at slow speeds, then gradually going through faster, and faster. I still have a lot to learn though. Especially on the curves that take you from one side to the other i.e. left curve, popping up and then slamming it down to travel into the next one which is a right curve.

Does anyone or do you MCRider1 try to pick your bottom off the seat and position it to the side for the curve you're preparing for? I.E. Left side of the seat, for left turn, and Right side of the seat for right? Or is that just overkill and only when you are on the track??

Also, the whole body experience to the lean. That is a left lean will be pressure on the left peg, travelling up the left side of your body into the left arm where you are pushing on the left handlebar creating the countersteer necessary to lean.  Along with this is dropping the shoulder on the side of the lean. If you aloow that shoulder to rise, you lose the push between the bar and the peg.

Wow, I've never thought about that at ALL! Very interesting. In fact I cannot wait to try, not only this, but everything else I've just learned on the road..

I've always assumed it was kinda in the hip and in the butt, where you get some lean. I've never gained much just by leaning side to side, but when I, in essence, drop my hip, like pushing my butt down through the curve, I've gained more influence through the curve. I never once thought about extending the initial intuition to include my feet as well..

What about the "contact patch" of the tire? Doesnt it differ from tire to tire, width/size? I.E. Does the width of the tire allow for more leaning before you get to the side wall and then in essence fall over? How do you know how far you can lean with any tire? But for this example say the stock tires on a cb750 ??

Great stuff guys, especially for this novice. All I ever do is ride, but sometimes, I'd like to get more out of the bike..

[MCRider]

MCRider1, that's some great insight!!

I love riding so much, I just wish sometimes I could get more out of the times I'm riding through those country back roads...

I've read books like "Twist of the Wrist" and they've helped me out, but typed word and illustration only go so far. Gettin out there and doing it, is where it's at. Something I'm starting to try is going down the same road over and over again. Learning the feel. At first at slow speeds, then gradually going through faster, and faster. I still have a lot to learn though. Especially on the curves that take you from one side to the other i.e. left curve, popping up and then slamming it down to travel into the next one which is a right curve.

Does anyone or do you MCRider1 try to pick your bottom off the seat and position it to the side for the curve you're preparing for? I.E. Left side of the seat, for left turn, and Right side of the seat for right? Or is that just overkill and only when you are on the track??

Also, the whole body experience to the lean. That is a left lean will be pressure on the left peg, travelling up the left side of your body into the left arm where you are pushing on the left handlebar creating the countersteer necessary to lean.  Along with this is dropping the shoulder on the side of the lean. If you aloow that shoulder to rise, you lose the push between the bar and the peg.

Wow, I've never thought about that at ALL! Very interesting. In fact I cannot wait to try, not only this, but everything else I've just learned on the road..

I've always assumed it was kinda in the hip and in the butt, where you get some lean. I've never gained much just by leaning side to side, but when I, in essence, drop my hip, like pushing my butt down through the curve, I've gained more influence through the curve. I never once thought about extending the initial intuition to include my feet as well..

What about the "contact patch" of the tire? Doesnt it differ from tire to tire, width/size? I.E. Does the width of the tire allow for more leaning before you get to the side wall and then in essence fall over? How do you know how far you can lean with any tire? But for this example say the stock tires on a cb750 ??

Great stuff guys, especially for this novice. All I ever do is ride, but sometimes, I'd like to get more out of the bike..

Well the stock CB750 tires were a 3.25 rib on the front and a 4.00 on the rear. Pretty primitive by today's standards. But having said that, if you've ever seen a picture of Mike Hailwood on the Honda 6 cylinder back in the 60s, he could do things on 2 skinny rim protectors that most of us could never do on the very best of modern tires. So its in the butt as much as the tire.

The contact patch on a modern setup often increases as the bike leans over, where we need it most. The lower aspect ratios of /60, /70, and /80 allow more lean assuming you're man enough to use it. In the street racer circles, its a badge of honor to scuff the tire all the way over to the "chicken Strip", that last 1/32 of an inch before the tire surface changes from tread to sidewall. usually on a 70 series tire. See the guys comparing "strips" in the lookout sections at Deal's Gap.

But the rim width must accomodate the aspect ratio and study is required. Silly and it feels weird to put much more than 1 or 2 oversizes on the stock rims. Maybe a 110/90 max on front and 130/80 on rear. The rims aren't wide enough to accept lower aspect ratios.

I'm experimenting putting wide 17" front and rears on my CB750 to accept a 110/70 front and a 140/70 rear. We'll see.

The wider rear can actually increase ground clearance as it picks the bike up as you lean.

[Really?]

Tire profiles & widths, rim sizes, tread design (roundness, how far the rubber goes to the side, edge,...) along with frame design all play into how the bike will negotiate the corner in addition to how you use your self.  It can get perty deep and very interesting.  A front end too sensitive can be problem too.  You will polly never get to that stage on the CB.  There is a lot more at play there too with regards to frame design n such but far to deep foryour topic of conversation.  Have fun in what you do.

[Geeto67]

Does anyone do it on the street? (yes I Know it isn't legal)

I did it today accidentally, I usually hang off when I'm going fast and for one magical moment, my right knee kissed the pavement. I was scraping my foot peg and just hung off further to get it off the road. Is this common, or should I chill out and go do a track day?

All the freaking time.

 If it was your right knee on an F that sucker must have been grinding something awful on the pavement or you were hanging way off the bike. I have actually ground stator covers before my knee touched down. yeah, all my pipes have scrapes.

I don't advocate it for other riders for several reasons:

1) I am effing insane. I jump cb750s regularly too and have a box of broken motor mounts to prove it, another thing I don't advocate.
2) it is really easy for road debris to catch you and pull you and the bike down or off
3) the public roads are crappy surfaces with limited traction
4) you attract law enforcement attention.
5) it beats up the bike. 

[andy750]

I did it today accidentally, I usually hang off when I'm going fast and for one magical moment, my right knee kissed the pavement. I was scraping my foot peg and just hung off further to get it off the road. Is this common, or should I chill out and go do a track day?

What side were you leaning off at the time? And where exactly did you corner to get your knee down?...I must admit Im having a hard time believing this story....


cheers
Andy

[MCRider]

I did it today accidentally, I usually hang off when I'm going fast and for one magical moment, my right knee kissed the pavement. I was scraping my foot peg and just hung off further to get it off the road. Is this common, or should I chill out and go do a track day?

What side were you leaning off at the time? And where exactly did you corner to get your knee down?...I must admit Im having a hard time believing this story....


cheers
Andy

Gotta go with the youngster. Essentially, if someone WANTS to do it, its doable. may not be smart or even the fastest way around.

I did it all the time on the track, with a stiffer suspension than most run on the street. But my CB hasn't been streetworthy for some time.

But I can do it on my FJR in the hills of southern Indiana, great twisties.  When the pegs hit, simply swing out a knee and there you are. But I don't (much) cause its not wise or the quickest way around.

Its actually easier on some public roads, especially left handers, as they may be off camber and the road comes up to meet you faster than on a track.

Again, questionable as to why one would, but its doable.

[JAG]

Hey McRider1, I tried your technique of pushing down with your feet, and man what a difference that made. The harder you push, the more it's going to lean in that direction.. It's going to take some gettin use to, but man was it fun!

[andy750]

I did it all the time on the track, with a stiffer suspension than most run on the street. But my CB hasn't been streetworthy for some time.

Ok if you have done it before on a CB on the track then Ill retract my original disbelief....experience counts for a lot. Im still curious to know what side though... as Geeto mentions the left side and the alternator will scrape before your knee does....on the right side it may be possible....thoughts on this?

Im here to learn 

cheers
Andy

[jhasewhite]

Here is the corner where it happened, twin peaks road. There is a one way road at the top of the hill in the shape of an "8" that you can run laps around, and never any cops. It's a lot of fun.

[jhasewhite]

It was going uphill, on my right side. The only thing that touches down on that side is my footpeg. Im scared to try it on a left hander because my centerstand hits very soon after my left peg = cra$h.

[bistromath]

lol jhasewhite i (and my CB550F) live about 3/4 mile from there, down 17th st. twin peaks is a fun road but often dirty and lately wet. and chock full of tourists.

at the intersection of corbett & clayton, turning left onto clayton going uphill the left turn immediately climbs right, and it was there that i ground a bunch off my footpeg getting a little hot into the turn. sure woke me up, though, when the back end swung out about two feet!

[MCRider]

Hey McRider1, I tried your technique of pushing down with your feet, and man what a difference that made. The harder you push, the more it's going to lean in that direction.. It's going to take some gettin use to, but man was it fun!

Unlike a car or a plane, the center of gravity of a bike changes QUICKLY with any change in your body. If you're just riding down the road the CG may be directly below about where the tank meets the seat. If you unload the seat and put that weight on the left peg the CG not only drops, it shifts to the left. Even though the footpeg is a fixed point. And because of where your body contact points are (hands on the handlebars) you can't help but push on the left bar initiating a countersteer which initiates the lean, as long as your shoulder doesn't absorb it, so drop the shoulder at the same time. And as you noticed, you'll be in the turn quick. Soon its just second nature.

There are schools for riding as you probably know. There was one, I can't remember who, a famous racer, who proposed that steering a bike was all done with footpeg pressure. Most of us thought he was mistaken.

The other school was countersteering and it has prevailed and that's what I believe. But there was truth to the footpeg pressure in that it does what I explained above. Its just not the whole story.

It goes along with the instructions for lifting a bike with the centerstand. The instruction is to hold where you should and push down with your foot on the centerstand peg. Now no human can exert enough pressure on that peg to cause the rocker to lift the bike, its essentially a fixed point. And that's not what happens. By saying push down with your foot, you transfer effort through your body into lifting and the bike rises. If you instruct someone to just place their foot on the peg and lift the bike up on it, it will be quite a struggle.