Topic: Dragging knee on a stock cb750...

[moham]

ANyway, in the article he said: "if you look at the haybales, you'll be in the haybales". That changeds my life. YOu have to look where you want to go, not where you are going. So many highside accidents, mine included occur when one looks to the outside of the curve cuz that's where you are going.
 

I've been told the same with respect to cars, ie picking up your exit and always keeping your exit in sight, otherwise forget it...

[MCRider]

I did it all the time on the track, with a stiffer suspension than most run on the street. But my CB hasn't been streetworthy for some time.

Ok if you have done it before on a CB on the track then Ill retract my original disbelief....experience counts for a lot. Im still curious to know what side though... as Geeto mentions the left side and the alternator will scrape before your knee does....on the right side it may be possible....thoughts on this?

Im here to learn 

cheers
Andy

The whole hanging off and dragging a knee technique came to be because of wide inline 4 Japanese production racers. The CR750 had the cutdown magneto, but the rest of us weren't that lucky and if we were going to fly a new technique had to come to pass. So you lean the bike as far as the hardware allows, then slide off (you would actually slide off first, then lean) with the final ultimate move putting the knee out, which subconciously puts more pressure on the inside footpeg. It all lowers the CG which allows the bike to turn more even though the lean is limited by the alternator cover. But all this depends on many other things as well, how much sag in the front end, longer shocks in the rear, tire widths and aspects, so the point at which the alt cover hits (or the shift pedal or the sidestand nub) or the knee is very circumstantial.

And your knee will never scrape if you don't conciously put it out there. If all i wanted to do was scrape my knee I could do it with very little bike lean.  I've even seen stunteres scrape a knee going from left to right, or r-l, on a 3 lane wide straight highway at way too fast speeds. They can do it on any bike, but now were talking acrobatics.

So we're back to an original thread thougt should one even be doing this on the street, and my answer is no. Unless you're just really "feeling it".  

PS: also rememeber that most roadrace tracks go clockwise, mostly righthand turns so the alternator not so big deal.

[MCRider]

Here is the corner where it happened, twin peaks road. There is a one way road at the top of the hill in the shape of an "8" that you can run laps around, and never any cops. It's a lot of fun.

SNIP

Beautiful turn, nasty highside! I would have left my mark on that ARMCO for sure.

[MCRider]

ANyway, in the article he said: "if you look at the haybales, you'll be in the haybales". That changeds my life. YOu have to look where you want to go, not where you are going. So many highside accidents, mine included occur when one looks to the outside of the curve cuz that's where you are going.
 

I've been told the same with respect to cars, ie picking up your exit and always keeping your exit in sight, otherwise forget it...

That's right, hand eye coordination. Its truly amazing how our body can translate eye input into action, at first with training, but ultimatley its second nature. For some its first nature and they have natural ability. I found I require training.

[andy750]

It was going uphill, on my right side. The only thing that touches down on that side is my footpeg. Im scared to try it on a left hander because my centerstand hits very soon after my left peg = cra$h.

Thanks for the further info and the photo - very convincing 

And thanks Ron for the lucid explanation...much more clear to me now.

Much appreciated to you both,

cheers
Andy

[turboguzzi]

enjoy our knee dragging... just want to add a few tips as someone who does it too,

as many instructors will tell you, knee draging shouldnt be an end to itself, so dont try unnaturally to do it. As you learn to go faster by hanging off (as a way of increasing ground clearance) it will happen naturaly.

wear leathers with knee pucks, knee dragging with jeans might rip your knee cap off is you hit a bump or dip.

a very good way to train is in a parking lot with a few cones, that's how MSF do it and good guys can drag knees even at 30 mph

last, get advanced training!

TG

[MCRider]

enjoy our knee dragging... just want to add a few tips as someone who does it too,

as many instructors will tell you, knee draging shouldnt be an end to itself, so dont try unnaturally to do it. As you learn to go faster by hanging off (as a way of increasing ground clearance) it will happen naturaly.

wear leathers with knee pucks, knee dragging with jeans might rip your knee cap off is you hit a bump or dip.

a very good way to train is in a parking lot with a few cones, that's how MSF do it and good guys can drag knees even at 30 mph

last, get advanced training!

TG

+1 ... Training!

[Jim F]

I did that years ago with just blue jeans on

hurt like hell too

God that was fun

Big-Jim

[jhasewhite]

very convincing, huh?

you should make a trip to ride the roads out here with me for some more convincing.

Out of my way Andy!, I got some pavement to smear!!

just kidding.

[andy750]

very convincing, huh?

you should make a trip to ride the roads out here with me for some more convincing.

Out of my way Andy!, I got some pavement to smear!!

just kidding.

  I have been out to the SF area on my K4 (cross-country trip 2004) and had a great time coming down Rt 1 from Eudora, CA. There are some amazing corners there as well and I spent 125 miles one day just cornering...but no knee down....but the photo of the corner you posted looks like a pretty good bet for getting a knee down....now we need a pic of YOU with CB750 and knee down  ....just kidding  ....I have only ever scrapped my foot on the road and that was on a CB400 coming off the Sakura Skyline drive in Japan...now that was fun!  ....although I do regularly scrape the passenger footpegs coming off the highway or on tight corners but usually only with the g/f on the back (she always has to move her foot to stop it scraping).

Sorry for doubting and ride safe 

cheers
Andy

[HondaMan]

Does anyone do it on the street? (yes I Know it isn't legal)

I did it today accidentally, I usually hang off when I'm going fast and for one magical moment, my right knee kissed the pavement. I was scraping my foot peg and just hung off further to get it off the road. Is this common, or should I chill out and go do a track day?

I usually wait to go to the mountains to do it... 
My footpegs (and case rails and centerstand foot lever) are a mess from it. My wife used to elbow me in the back, because I'd knock her feet off the rear pegs. So, I added an extra pair, up higher, for her for those days.
My 750 looks like a caterpillar, with 8 footpegs sticking out in different places.

[Gregorymoto]

You  are fine just make sure the Pav. is dry and you have some sticky tires.

Waiting for track day bight be a good idea but you know sometimes the urge hits and you do it.

[KB02]

The whole hanging off and dragging a knee technique came to be because of wide inline 4 Japanese production racers. The CR750 had the cutdown magneto, but the rest of us weren't that lucky and if we were going to fly a new technique had to come to pass. So you lean the bike as far as the hardware allows, then slide off (you would actually slide off first, then lean) with the final ultimate move putting the knee out, which subconciously puts more pressure on the inside footpeg. It all lowers the CG which allows the bike to turn more even though the lean is limited by the alternator cover. But all this depends on many other things as well, how much sag in the front end, longer shocks in the rear, tire widths and aspects, so the point at which the alt cover hits (or the shift pedal or the sidestand nub) or the knee is very circumstantial.

Good explanation. And not only do you lower your CG, by sliding your but over, you also move the CG to the left or right - basically into the turn. This way the bike doesn't have to lean as far over to make the same radius turn thus keeping a better section of the conact patch of the tire contacting the road.

And yes, I am an MSF Ridercoach. I love teaching those classes. It's the best thing in the world to watch the light bbulb come on when a new student "gets it."   

[turboguzzi]

KB, good to have an MSF aboard.

MC, let's see..... were getting into grey areas here..... Keith Code is all for hanging out, using your knee as a lean gauge AND putting presure on the outside peg.

I for one, slide only half of one butt cheek off the seat before turns and try to stay relatively close to the bike (see pic). Hanging of wildly sure looks impressive and will make you wear a knee puck in one track session, but puts you less in control. Used to do that, not anymore. Look at number 11, th ebritish classic champion, he doesnt even look like he's trying hard....

Cheers
TG

[MCRider]

KB, good to have an MSF aboard.

MC, let's see..... were getting into grey areas here..... Keith Code is all for hanging out, using your knee as a lean gauge AND putting presure on the outside peg.

I for one, slide only half of one butt cheek off the seat before turns and try to stay relatively close to the bike (see pic). Hanging of wildly sure looks impressive and will make you wear a knee puck in one track session, but puts you less in control. Used to do that, not anymore. Look at number 11, th ebritish classic champion, he doesnt even look like he's trying hard....

Cheers
TG

I'll have to reread my Keith Code, but I'd guess this, he's talking track only not street. So when Nick says don't do it he's talking street. Also, as the technique morphed from the 1970s era where it was a necessity for ground clearance into a technique of improving lap times, the knee is definitely used as a gauge, I've even seen crashes averted where the rider picked the bike up from a skid using his knee! Ouch but it worked.

Pushing on the outside peg I think, I'm guessing at the reason he would say that, would be used to stabilize the bike, and prepare it for the next turn in the opposite direction.

In the final analysis, within the framework of general technique, its a case by case, rider by rider thing. Yeah many can make it look real easy, ride 95% like its 50%. For others like me, everything beyond 80% is difficult. So I ride at 80% max, and leave some in reserve. Even on the track, though its been several years for me, 5, since I had a track day.

I rememeber 2 things, Mike Hailwood on a Honda 6, never hung off (I don't think he did) and was faster than many of us could ever hope to be, on skinny rim protector tires. And 2, I was at Pocono on the high bank on a borrowed TZ250, going as fast as God would allow and pretty proud of myself. I was passed on the outside by a guy on a CB750F Production racer. I pulled into the pits and gave it back to the owner and resumed spectating.

[MCRider]

KB, good to have an MSF aboard.

MC, let's see..... were getting into grey areas here..... Keith Code is all for hanging out, using your knee as a lean gauge AND putting presure on the outside peg.

I for one, slide only half of one butt cheek off the seat before turns and try to stay relatively close to the bike (see pic). Hanging of wildly sure looks impressive and will make you wear a knee puck in one track session, but puts you less in control. Used to do that, not anymore. Look at number 11, th ebritish classic champion, he doesnt even look like he's trying hard....

Cheers
TG

I'll have to reread my Keith Code, SNIP

Just pulled my Keith Code Twist of the Wrist Part II, and you are keerect. He recommends pushing on the outside peg (and he is a big proponent of hanging off, for 6 good reasons). His books are subtitled Road Racers Handbook, so I think some discretion must be used converting the ideas to the street.

He calls it "pivot steering". In some cases it has the same principle behind it as I mentioned which is to use the full length of your body for steering inputs. My idea (can't remember where I got it, but it focused on moving CG to the inside) was liniar on the same side of the bike, his was across the bike. I think it goes along with whether you are going to hang off or not, street-no, track-yes.

Things we agreed on, lower cg decrease lean angle required for the same speed around the turn. The CG changes not only up and down but side to side. I said drop the shoulder, he siad drop the elbow. Hard to do one without the other.

But in scanning the books for these comments (TWT-I & II) I realized how much I don't know and how much I have forgotten.  Just reading the chapter titles was a humbling experience.

Final comment: Everyone take BOTH MSF courses, buy the Keith Code books foir the track and I'm sure there is a good one for the street. The more you know the better it is.

[HondaMan]

KB, good to have an MSF aboard.

Roger THAT!
KB, do they teach track racing in MSF now? That would be SO good.
I taught owners of bikes how to ride in the 1970s, when AMA first started the 'teach-first, ride-later' programs. After one fella bought a new RS90S from us and got killed less than 2 miles from the shop on it, I got management to agree that no one could receive the keys from their new bike unless they were either a prior rider and could prove it, or they went to our following Sunday, then Saturday-Sunday, riding course at a local large parking lot. After that, no one got hurt seriously on our bikes. So many riders were going from an auto-trans car to the bikes that over half didn't know what the clutch did, it was that basic.

It was the 1970s 'gas crisis', so everyone was buying bikes then...

[turboguzzi]

good points KB, though I must say I try to do pivot steering also on the street, if only to maintain my technique between races. :-) Otherwise it's easy to fall into the "lazy steering" habit

and yes, the track teaches you to be humble.

the story about mike the bike is that he would use his toes as lean gauge, he would wear through the boot AND sock and stop leaning when his little toe would touch the track...

TG

[florence]

Dragging ones knees on the road is a very dangerous idea and is most undignified.  By sitting upright on my motor bicycle with my knees in, I have greater stability and I can corner just as fast as those young pups I see hanging off the side of their sports bikes.  It is all a matter of personal preference but Mike Hailwood didn't feel the need to do it and I don't think he was exactly slow.  (He went to school with a one of my friends)

[turboguzzi]

Florence, in my case, I do "pivot steering" on the street, not knee dragging,  but I wouldnt go as far as saying it's most undignified. Unless you are hardly leaning and are looking like  a monkey hanging off just to get your knee down. Yeah, that can look silly.

Dont agree about losing stability when hanging out, quite the opposite.

Last, main reason that Mike did not hang out (I guess) was that tires of the time just did not had the grip of even today's street tires (never mind slicks), so ground clereance was less of a concern.  Also, race tracks of the time were much more flowing and fast, not so many chicanes and hairpins in them, so favoured a more "tucked in style". Forcing a bike through a fast chicane without shifting your body weight around is downright difficult. Guess that if it was so dangerous and de-stabilizing, GP and SBK pilots and racers in general wouldnt be doing it.

TG

[florence]

I just mean that people who hang off the side of the bike for no particular reason other than fashion is silly.  I was just saying that knee dragging should stay on the race track.

I use counter steering to flick my bike about and I have upright bars.  Because I am sitting up in corners I have more mass in the corner than I would if I had my face on the tank so I don't need to hang off the side.  We all have our own techniques and that is great.  I think counter steering and pivot steering are essentially the same thing.

I don't think tyres were as bad in the past as people would like you to believe.

As far as courses are concerned I don't think the Isle of Man course was any less twisty when Mike won there.

[lordmoonpie]

I just mean that people who hang off the side of the bike for no particular reason other than fashion is silly.  I was just saying that knee dragging should stay on the race track.

As far as courses are concerned I don't think the Isle of Man course was any less twisty when Mike won there.

Counter steering is great but body mass movement is an additional steering input and therefore more effetive than just coutner steering alone. Go on an advanced MAC Honda or similar Police course and they'll teach you to use ALL the inputs available to you. The more flexibility you have and options, the more likely you are to respond successfully to the challenge (corner!) ahead, simple as that.

Isle of Man - yes it's much smoother and straighter then when Mike last won over there - the improvements have been massive even in the time since I've been going - 1994 onwards. It's hugely noticeable in some places like Cronk-y-Voddy through to Milntown and just look at Sulby straight - you couldn't do today's speeds down there 20 years ago or you'd have been too airborne to make forward progress! Now it's billiard table smooth. Even old features like Ballig Bridge have gone - have you ever noticed a bridge at Ballig unless you stopped and had a look? Years ago it was a nasty kinked humpback like Ballaugh.

Interesting point on Knee down antics though - Ian Lougher won 3 TT's without ever putting his knee on tarmac (of course he did shift bodyweight to aid his steering). Knee down helps to quickly find the maximum lean angle but isn't necessary for a fast rider. Just look at MotoGp - when it's wet and they cannot lean as far they wear double thickness sliders...

[KRONUS0100]

roads I am on every day and kow like the back of my hand.....I ride with abandon...whether wife with me or not.  Roads I don't know...I tend to be a little cautious in the corners.   Did I mention I hate blind 90 degree corners?