Topic: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'

[Frankenkit]

forgive a possibly cold-meds sort of question, but...

If the system voltage is the battery voltage when all is right with the world, is there any way to measure them independent of each other?  What I've been doing is probing directly at the battery lugs, with everything connected, etc.  That does, however, mean that when I'm topping 14.8 or so volts at 4k+ rpms, I really don't know what state of charge the battery itself is at (does that make any sense?)  assuming you can bombard the battery with that level of energy for a given amount of time, and it would still take a while to really charge the battery. (like 13+ volts at 1.3 ohms takes a few hours to fully recharge a battery)
what does that spike of voltage mean for real battery charging? I guess what I'm saying is " How long must this amount of voltage be maintained to see appreciable recharging taking place?"

The immediacy of my battery charge voltage increase was more based on the voltage being produced by my alternator than an accurate reflection of what the battery charge itself was, but I'm unsure how to get an accurate reading of that because at idle RPMs, more is being drawn than produced, and any number I get (unless, theoretically, at exactly 1650 rpms) will be a little off, owing to either the production or usage of voltage.

[MikeB]

Pinhead ,TT or anyone
is the regulator there to regulate the voltage into the rotor or to reg. the V to the battery from the alt.

Other systems, such as those with permanent magnet alternators, can regulate via shunting or chopping excess alternator output.
Assuming you mean for the SOHC4.... 
The regulator is there to protect the battery from overcharge damage.  It does this by throttling the alternator's output capability (via rotor or field coil voltage) when it is capable of over charging the battery (battery full and engine revved up).  The bike's system voltage IS the battery voltage when all is working properly.  Keep the battery happy and the bike is happy.

Cheers,

Yes  for the SOHC4,  the permanet mag. type are the only ones I have ever had to work with so my thinking was along those types
Thanks guys that helps

[MikeB]

forgive a possibly cold-meds sort of question, but...

If the system voltage is the battery voltage when all is right with the world, is there any way to measure them independent of each other?  What I've been doing is probing directly at the battery lugs, with everything connected, etc.  That does, however, mean that when I'm topping 14.8 or so volts at 4k+ rpms, I really don't know what state of charge the battery itself is at (does that make any sense?)  assuming you can bombard the battery with that level of energy for a given amount of time, and it would still take a while to really charge the battery. (like 13+ volts at 1.3 ohms takes a few hours to fully recharge a battery)
what does that spike of voltage mean for real battery charging? I guess what I'm saying is " How long must this amount of voltage be maintained to see appreciable recharging taking place?"

The immediacy of my battery charge voltage increase was more based on the voltage being produced by my alternator than an accurate reflection of what the battery charge itself was, but I'm unsure how to get an accurate reading of that because at idle RPMs, more is being drawn than produced, and any number I get (unless, theoretically, at exactly 1650 rpms) will be a little off, owing to either the production or usage of voltage.

somebody correct me If I'm wrong
the current or amps going into the battery determine the amount of time it takes to charge the battery
so as long as the voltage is above the battery voltage it should be charging, (repeat should)
but the resistance that the voltage sees at or to the battery is going to determine the amps that will
be at the battery so if your resistance somehow has gone up your amps would go down if the voltage stayed the same , so with lower current to the battery but with enough voltage its possible your other
systems (lights,ign,charging) could be drawing more current then the battery needs to charge, there by sucking the life out of your battery

Did that make sense 
it did to me

[mystic_1]

This is why I suggested installing an inline ammeter.  That will tell you whether electrons are flowing into, or out of, the battery, and by approximately how much.

mystic_1

[TwoTired]

If the system voltage is the battery voltage when all is right with the world, is there any way to measure them independent of each other? 

If they are the same there is no independence between them.

What I've been doing is probing directly at the battery lugs, with everything connected, etc.  That does, however, mean that when I'm topping 14.8 or so volts at 4k+ rpms, I really don't know what state of charge the battery itself is at (does that make any sense?)  assuming you can bombard the battery with that level of energy for a given amount of time, and it would still take a while to really charge the battery. (like 13+ volts at 1.3 ohms takes a few hours to fully recharge a battery)

This is exactly why I suspected the battery had a problem.  A good battery doesn't usually change it's voltage that quickly.  Are you probing the battery post directly, or the cable terminal ends?

If the battery is indeed good, then I would scrutinize the connection between cables and terminal, be certain to remove any oxidation that can prevent reading the actual battery post voltage, rather than what the alternator is feeding it.  Also, make sure that all the conductors of the cables are well attached, so there is no restriction to current flow.  Check both ends of the cables for internal corrosion and connectivity.  This includes both the positive cable and the negative cable.  Both ends need be checked, including the end terminal lugs onto the cable conductive core.  A narrowing of the circuit path, as in cable cross section area, or resistive elements in series can reduce the current flow to the starter motor, making in turn slowly.
I thought you had already addressed these cable connections.  But, if the battery is good, and your starter isn't drawing excessive currents, then faulty cables or cables connections are likely to be the culprit.

what does that spike of voltage mean for real battery charging? I guess what I'm saying is " How long must this amount of voltage be maintained to see appreciable recharging taking place?"

If you are probing the cable terminal rather than the battery post proper, and there is resistance in the attachment, the spike is more of a charging system output indication than a true battery voltage.
If the probe was on the battery posts proper, it means the battery impedance is far higher than it should be.  Usually when this does happen, the battery is unable to put out high currents as well.

Tell me you have cleaned the battery lugs and the cable terminals so that they are bright and shiny.  And, that the lugs on the cables are well bonded to the wire core.

Cheers,

[Frankenkit]

Ok, battery's back, and the shop said it tested out just fine. 

The battery's posts and lugs are clean as can be. (c'mon, this is me we're talking about.  I just *don't* leave things dirty, unless it's my apartment)

This cold thing is still beating the hell out of me so I just picked up the battery on my way home from school, dropped it in and attached the positive cable.  Ran a quick and dirty amp test to see if there was any parasitic draw while the bike was turned off.  There was none.  I would've tested draw with the bike on, but the multimeter can only handle 10A and I didn't want to blow it.

I'm going to sit very still until my medication kicks in and I can breathe again, then maybe putz some more, I guess.

TT, as the battery has been confirmed in working condition, should I now suspect starter motor draw?  I have a second CB650 starter here from the other bike that I could use to see if this hot starting condition follows the starter.  Unfortunately, I noticed it in the starter Paulages gave me, too, so it may persist with this starter, it may not.  I've already looked over (but not completely dismantled) the new starter and there's no play in the armature, etc.  It's a nice, tight-fitting device.

[Hush]

Get healthy girl!
You know me, I'm more a replace bits and cross fingers sort so I'd do the starter swap probably because I have no idea what you and TT talk about half the time on here.

[TwoTired]

TT, as the battery has been confirmed in working condition, should I now suspect starter motor draw?  I have a second CB650 starter here from the other bike that I could use to see if this hot starting condition follows the starter.  Unfortunately, I noticed it in the starter Paulages gave me, too, so it may persist with this starter, it may not.  I've already looked over (but not completely dismantled) the new starter and there's no play in the armature, etc.  It's a nice, tight-fitting device.

Yes, the starter is the next thing.  I'm basing this on your below 9v while cranking measurement (and assuming that measurement is on the battery posts proper).  It is excessive currents that cause this voltage sag.  Either the starter motor itself, or increased drag on the engine rotating assembly/piston walls the slows the starter motor excessively.  What is your choice of oil for this bike?

Would be nice to know what the actual starter motor current draw is. 

Cheers,

[Spanner 1]

Ah jeez !, now were down to what oil do you buy/use in this bike!!??...fergawdsake...somebody buy this girl/person a NEW battery, don't care what some guy with his name on a nametag  in the local ' Autodontcare ' said about the battery  being 'fine'..........................Sheesh !

[Frankenkit]

Holy sh*t. 
I changed the starter solenoid (new one, same as Leekellerking's) and battery cable (pos from battery to starter solenoid) cleaned and polished (to a shine!) the lugs and battery posts.  They'd been cleaned before, but this time I really tore into them until they were quite smooth, then put a shine on just for the hell of it (smoother = more contact surface) and put a light coat of dielectric grease on everything.   The posts had gotten torn up pretty badly from something? I wasn't aware of how irregular the mating surface was, so I filed it down a little and then just sanded it until it was smooth.

I changed the battery cable because a while ago, the lug to the battery had broken off, so I was using a copper one that I'd attempted to cold solder, but apparently it didn't work well.  I tore the new one off MickeyX's 650 (sorry) and cleaned it thoroughly, attached.

The bike starts very quickly and easily now.  With the choke on, warming it up at 2000 rpms, we were reading 14.5v at the lugs.  I cranked it up to 4k rpms, and it spiked to 14.8, but then held at 14.5. Same with 5k rpms. 
We shut it down so MickeyX could get some riding gear together. At the RR, the black and white wires read 7.2 ohms resistance after the bike had warmed up a bit.

The bike started right up again, with just a real quick touch on the button.  MickeyX got the honors of this ride, so she took it down and around again, around the block twice putting her through her paces.  Brought the bike in, and the battery read 12.7!  Rotor resistance held at 7.2.

When starting it dipped from 11.9 (we had shut it off and had the lights etc on, and the circuit open, hence lower voltage) to 9.6 but went right back up again. (then we revved it a bit and shut it back down, for a final voltage of 12.57 at the battery)

Re-starting when warm it's just slightly slower than the cold start, but still really good, definitely not where I'd worry about whether or not it'd start again.

Wish I could chat more but I have to get some sleep...

I have some riding to do tomorrow!

[MikeB]

That's great news hopefully that gremlins been KILLED
Hope you're feeling better for your RIDE tomorrow
Mike

[Hush]

Can I say "I told you so"? 
Hope you have a really great ride girl, sorry about the starter motor Mickey but the girl needs some saddle time.
I was supposed to be riding mine today but she aint playing ball, battery dead as Dodo and even the water levels are down, #1 was half empty? how the heck does that happen!

[TwoTired]

Glad to hear it is finally working out for you.
Happy riding!

[Spanner 1]

That's fabulous Kit, but my money is still on a new battery.....sooner or later !! But keep going like y'are an if it works, it works......!

[Spanner 1]

Hush, here in 'Murkaa' we have 'gravity.'... the English invented it and we purfected it ! So y'all down-under suffer with anti-gravity.. how it is yer battery acid mix 'fell' up out of yer battery, got it ?

[Hush]

That might go a long way to explaining my earlier carb problems, now that I've fitted an electric petrol pump my gas can flow up-hill.
You all dun own a pikup truk too duz youse? 

[Frankenkit]

Oh, Hush! you're scrambling your american dialects... 
In the south, it'd be
"Y'all askin' bout mah pickup?  Shore I kin help ya with that"

out in the northeast:
"Youse guys betta layoff my ford tohris, it ain't no pickup, it's utihlity"
ok, that's more bostonian.  whatevah.

I'm from the midwest, so I don't mangle my American english much except, like my dad, I draw out the middle of some words.  My Hahnnda.  Harrley. blah.

Hush, I didn't change the starter motor, just the starter solenoid (the little thing next to the fuse, not the big thing in the motor)  

My hard bags should get here today, so give me today to do the fiberglassing, and maybe sunnday/monday to do my painting after work, and maybe I'll be able to ride my bike to school Thursday with all my  books etc in tow!

[Soos]

Ahhh, good to hear all's doing better as far as hot re-start.

So are you thinking the culprit was just the old starter solenoid?
Or the battery mating surfaces and cable?


l8r

[Frankenkit]

I'm honestly not sure which, but my money as far as the starting goes would be on the starter solenoid.  As far as charging? I don't know.  I did clean up the brushes and black and white wires, etc, but probably thoroughly cleaning and smoothing everything helped, anyway.

I also have changed all the dash lights (even behind the tach etc) to LEDs, more for visual appeal than anything, but those bulbs and sockets were a little melty, so it was high time that was done.

[MickeyX]

Yeah, I would have liked her to do one thing at a time and test in between so we can understand it better but this works too.    Looking at the battery cable she took off, I can understand if that may have been just crappy enough to not allow a good charge. I will go over it on Sunday and fix it (cuz now the other bike is missing one) or just replace it with a new one. The best thing was, on a hot bike, it just had the slightest hesistation on start up. Much better than before. The volts didn't bottom out like before when the starter was engaged. I'd still like to retest everything now, start to finish, just to get an idea where we stand officially. I know Kit doesn't want to cuz she really hates that part of the process but, for myself, I'd like to be able to go to work and not worry so much that she is stranded somewhere and I can't help.

We'll do some more riding, trying hot starts, etc over the next few days (it's supposed to get sunny and in the mid 60s over the weekend!!!) and we'll see if all is still well before she rides into school alone. Just waiting on more testing. Time to get out the popcorn. I hope it's a good show.


Of course Kit, you can always ride in along the bus route and if she konks, you can just park 'er, flash your bus pass and still get to class on time. Or buy a Sportster...
   

[Soos]

when weather permits, I ride 5miles to work everyday.
NO bus routes for me though.... 4.8 miles of the 5 mile ride is highway miles.

The really sad part of my ride to work is, by the time I get to work, the bike is JUST getting really warmed up to the point she begins to wanna run like a banshee!!
The ride home mysteriously takes me 10-15 miles however....

But I have a oil cooler, so Kit will not have to ride as far to warm the engine up to "operating temps".



l8r

[leekellerking]

I'm honestly not sure which, but my money as far as the starting goes would be on the starter solenoid.  As far as charging? I don't know.  I did clean up the brushes and black and white wires, etc, but probably thoroughly cleaning and smoothing everything helped, anyway.

I also have changed all the dash lights (even behind the tach etc) to LEDs, more for visual appeal than anything, but those bulbs and sockets were a little melty, so it was high time that was done.

I theory, I agree with MickeyX that things should have been done one-at-a-time to properly isolate the problem

From a realistic point of view, I'm glad whatever you did worked!

Now ride!

[jaknight]

Really Happy For You,

Congrats Kit & Mickey! ....... Really glad this will be in your past!

I have been following this....... but one thing I think I missed......would like to know.  You talk about a new solenoid....... Did you get a standard Honda factory one or something "exotic?"

~ ~ ~ jaknight ~ ~ ~

[Frankenkit]

I got one from eBay that matches the part number Honda had supersede the original '80 650 starter solenoid.  If you go back a bit in the thread, you'll find a link to the ebay auction, I think it was near page 8.

Rode a couple miles out to the Honda shop, (freakin' rain, freakin' HAIL, and now, NOW it's sunny)  and it restarted just fine, real quick, and I was only off it for maybe 20 minutes. 

The trip home included a LOT of idling (stupid red lights) but I was still at 12.56 pulling in.  Lookin' good.
The resistance at the rotor still seems to vary an awful lot.  Yesterday it didn't at all, but today, it was 4.7 again when cold, (this is at the  RR) and 23 ohms now when I pulled in. is that normal?  Still seemed to be charging just fine (14.5 at 2k rpms, using choke a little to hold the rpms up, it was def. operating temp), but it seems like a helluva jump. I'll check the wires going from the brushes/stator to the RR again, but having looked at them before, I think they're actually okay, I haven't seen anything that made me suspect them.  Even warm the other day they had .7 ohms resistance from brush to connector.

...but it's still charging, and starting just fine so...?

...since I've been the one doing homework all the time on this thread, I'd like to turn it around and tell everyone else with a 650 to go for a nice ride, then unplug their rotor/stator at the RR and test the resistance between the black/white spades.  Tell me what you've got.

[Pinhead]

Are you measuring at the copper slip rings themselves or at the wiring connector? The brushes will add a little resistance here and there when the engine is stopped. When the engine is running it's impossible to get an accurate reading. If you're measuring at the slip rings, you may want to take some really fine sandpaper and go over the surface of the copper, as a thin film tends to form over the rings making it hard to get an accurate reading.

EDIT: Just read your last sentence about measuring at the red/white spades. This is why your readings are all over the place. To get an accurate reading you have to measure directly on the slip rings.