Topic: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'

[leekellerking]

mine 'came back' after the rewind and after cleaning the brushes and filing down a solder nub on the side of the rotor, it started charging just fine again.  Lee, I suggest checking your resistance at the black and white spades over by your regulator/rectifier and seeing what they say.

Well, Kit, at least it starting to cool off so I can actually stand being int he garage for more than 5 minutes.  

They joys of vintage bikes!  

On the other hand, when I went on the Two Wheeled Texans Pie Run last month, people were ignoring newer, nicer MUCH more expensive bikes to look at mine!  

[Frankenkit]

seriously, check to see that your battery's holding voltage, then test resistance at your RR between black and white.  It'll tell you what's going on between those spades, thru the wires to the brushes and the resistance of your rotor as well.  You should be getting 5.8-ish.

[leekellerking]

Things I learned on my commute home tonight:

1. The HOV lane is a very scary place when your bike starts inexplicably cutting out;

2. The AMA Champion membership ($49 a year and free roadside service) is worth every cent; and

3. Putting off working on your Nighthawk's electrical system to (a) change the oil on your wife's Jeep, (b) get the oil changed on your Mazda, and (c) work on your "new" Nighthawk gas tank, may seem like a good idea at the time, but not when your bike starts inexplicably cutting out on the freaking HOV lane!!! (Did I mention it was scary???)

So, this weekend instead of riding to Kyle for the Two Wheeled Texans Pie Run, I will most likely be sitting in my garage with a VOM in one hand and a beer in the other, trying to find out why Bikey doesn't run.   

I should have listened to you, Kit. 

Lee

[Frankenkit]

oh it's cool.
Good luck with your project, Lee, I can't say my bike's ever *cut out* at speed, I think that'd effing terrify me.  I'm glad you're ok!

I actually have some trouble-shooting of my own to do tonight.

Even when the battery is fully charging (12.6 after my ride home tonight) sometimes it still turns pretty slowly (like this afternoon at work.)  My best guess is that there might be some excessive resistance at the starter button/cut off switch that I need to assess.  To support that guess, here's my vision of what's happening:
@ full charge, I hit starter button, and resistance (or shorting? or bad grounding?) can sap away a decent amount of the juice, but since the battery is at full charge, it can eventually start anyway through sheer force and amperage.
@ partial or poor charge, I hit the starter button and this resistance is enough to inhibit starting at all.
Again, best guess, but I've cleaned everything but those connections (and thanks, Bunny, for pointing those out to me after I'd intentionally "forgotten" them...

[Hush]

Just keep it on a battery tender Kit.

[Frankenkit]

never.
I did find something interesting last night while poking around in the starter switch pod.  I don't know if it was anything that would really cause the shorting/grounding problem I was looking at, but one of the wires had a small fray right at the solder, with little bits of this wire crossing over and touching another wire's soldered base. My 'fix' (if it works... was to take a little sharp poker and push that wire back around, where it belonged... then I squirted the whole area full of dielectric grease to insulate it.

[TwoTired]

Just in case anyone is interested...
Frayed wires aren't just a nuisance.  They reduce the current carrying ability of the wire.

If you break a solid wire, no current can flow through it.
The amount of current that can flow through a wire is related to its cross sectional area.  Since wire does have a small resistance, pushing current through it raises it's temperature.  To lower the heat generation, more cross sectional area is required to lower its resistance, and thereby the heating that occurs within the wire conductor.

You can make a more flexible wire by stranding the wire instead of making it solid.  The same rules about heating apply relating to the cross sectional area distributed over multiple strands.  Therefore if strands are cut, either the wire heats up more or you must reduce the current passing through it or you have to increase the air passing over it to keep it cool.

Certainly frayed stands that wander over to other circuits is an issue.  Moving the fray out of contact only fixed part of a problem.  The wire is still damaged and in need of repair.

[Frankenkit]

Thanks, TT.  As soon as I get a chance to take it apart again, I'll drop some solder on that spot and solidify the connection.

I have yet to see any kind of directions on how to take the button mechanism out of the switch pod, but that's kind of what I'd be looking to do in order to make sure I've really fixed this problem.

[leekellerking]

Just keep it on a battery tender Kit.

Hopefully, that will help Kit's problem, but I was keeping mine on a battery tender the last few nights.  I'm going to pull the battery and take it to AutoZone (where I bought it) and have them test it.  One of the cells was low on fluid last weekend and maybe my battery just went bad?  (2 months out of warranty, of course)

Lee

[BVCB650]

If never take mine off the batt tender Jr. Once, I had one on for 4 years except when riding it. It actually adds to the life of the battery if it is kept fully charged.

[bistromath]

I recommend cutting and splicing the affected area with butt splices, rather than soldering, except as a temporary measure. You never want to solder stranded wires that may be subject to flex or vibration, as the stiff solder creates a stress riser that causes the copper wire to fatigue and break over time. Learned this designing UAVs.

[leekellerking]

And the answer is "bad battery."

Or, at least, that is part of the answer.  I took the battery to Auto Zone, they tested it on the machine, and it came back "bad."

I am probably going to pick up a battery from Walmart tomorrow.  I think they have a 1 year warranty.  The Auto Zone battery only had a 90 day warranty. 

Wish me luck!

Lee

Just keep it on a battery tender Kit.

Hopefully, that will help Kit's problem, but I was keeping mine on a battery tender the last few nights.  I'm going to pull the battery and take it to AutoZone (where I bought it) and have them test it.  One of the cells was low on fluid last weekend and maybe my battery just went bad?  (2 months out of warranty, of course)

Lee

[Hush]

This starter pod thingy you refer to Kemosabe, in English is that the solenoid?
If it is and you are good with soldering then just desolder the two wires and you can take the whole thing apart.

[MickeyX]

It is in the right handlebar switch pod. 2 little strands that came loose from the braid. she tucked them back around the braid for now.

[leekellerking]

I recommend cutting and splicing the affected area with butt splices, rather than soldering, except as a temporary measure. You never want to solder stranded wires that may be subject to flex or vibration, as the stiff solder creates a stress riser that causes the copper wire to fatigue and break over time. Learned this designing UAVs.

 One thing I've seen is butt splice units with a memory thermoplastic overlay.  You butt splice the wires, and then cover that with a shrinking thermoplastic tube that reduces to a much small size and gives it better insulation and Resistance to physical torsion and stretch.

[leekellerking]

So, the next question becomes, what is a GOOD battery???  I will be checking out Wally World, tomorrow.
'

And the answer is "bad battery."

Or, at least, that is part of the answer.  I took the battery to Auto Zone, they tested it on the machine, and it came back "bad."

I am probably going to pick up a battery from Walmart tomorrow.  I think they have a 1 year warranty.  The Auto Zone battery only had a 90 day warranty. 

Wish me luck!

Lee

Just keep it on a battery tender Kit.

Hopefully, that will help Kit's problem, but I was keeping mine on a battery tender the last few nights.  I'm going to pull the battery and take it to AutoZone (where I bought it) and have them test it.  One of the cells was low on fluid last weekend and maybe my battery just went bad?  (2 months out of warranty, of course)

Lee

[Hush]

I've had mine totally to bits but it is of the old school hard metal and very little plastic variety, the jap solder is very hard to heat up (industrial) and all the wee bits are a pure PITA but with your small paws Kit you should be all right.

[Frankenkit]

Lee, there's 'good' and then there's 'awesome'.  If your bike doesn't charge properly all the time, you might want to get a sealed gel cell, they tend to be more tolerant of deep-cycling.

[Hush]

Mine is still charging beautifully....too beautifully it seems Kit, just took battery out and had to re-fill the two cells closest to the -negative pole and top up the others?
But it charges and runs massive so if I have to keep doing this I'll just keep doing it.

[leekellerking]

I am pricing and sourcing batteries locally.  I can get a YUSA for $79.99 at Cycle Gear, but it is lead acid.

Anybody have any experience with Walmart for bike batteries?

As I said, my battery was low on water in the cell closest to the positive terminal.  I wonder if Bikey is occasionally over charging?

Lee

Lee, there's 'good' and then there's 'awesome'.  If your bike doesn't charge properly all the time, you might want to get a sealed gel cell, they tend to be more tolerant of deep-cycling.

[BVCB650]

Maybe, but in my experience, it is either charging correctly, not enough or too much all the time. Is that cell the one closest to the vent? Might have something to do with it. How often to you check the levels?

[leekellerking]

Maybe, but in my experience, it is either charging correctly, not enough or too much all the time. Is that cell the one closest to the vent? Might have something to do with it. How often to you check the levels?

Hmmm. On mine, it was the cell closest to the vent.  The answer to your second question is apparently "not often enough!"

[BVCB650]

Since that cell is located closest to the outlet, evaporation may have played a role, coupled with the heat normal charging makes.

[leekellerking]

Since that cell is located closest to the outlet, evaporation may have played a role, coupled with the heat normal charging makes.

My plan is to buy a battery today (YUASA is leading the hunt) and trickle charge overnight.  I'll ride to work tomorrow (God willing) and put it on the meter tomorrow night to see how its doing.

[Frankenkit]

thing is, unless I'm horribly terribly wrong (and that happens) I don't think a dying battery would cause your bike to just cut out like that.  In theory, at least, your alternator should be producing enough juice to run your bike.  That's why some racers run battery-free to save on weight. I think your problem lies deeper.