Topic: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'

[Frankenkit]

found this on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140310229637&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:MOTORS:1123

What do you think, if switching the solenoid works?  ...at that price, I'm tempted anyway, just because the existing one is STILL 30 years old, and still relies on hard-to-obtain 30A honda fuses, as opposed to easy-to-find blade-type 30A fuses., found at any gas station...

[Gordon]

found this on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140310229637&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:MOTORS:1123

What do you think, if switching the solenoid works?  ...at that price, I'm tempted anyway, just because the existing one is STILL 30 years old, and still relies on hard-to-obtain 30A honda fuses, as opposed to easy-to-find blade-type 30A fuses., found at any gas station...

That's for an '83.  Does it have the same connection to the wiring harness that your solenoid has? 

[Frankenkit]

Yeah, except the M and B are reversed.  I don't see that that would be a major problem if I either installed it backward or (carefully!) crossed the wires.

Just looked it up and the part number 35850-MB0-007 superseded the original part number for my '80 650.  Looked up the new number and it's the same as the '83 solenoid, so I guess I'm in good shape.

[Hush]

Found that myself in NZ but at a slightly higher price.
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Parts-for-sale/Electrics/auction-209919970.htm

Oh yeah that also might explain the 50amp fuses in my fuse box?
It's OK I took them all out.

[TwoTired]

Ok, I have a question on pickup coils. Maybe.

Pick up coils won't slow the engine turnover speed with the starter motor.

TT, that reading was taken post-ride, with the lights etc shut off.

Then with a 12.36 volt reading right after the engine was running, the bike DOES have a charging system problem.

Have you done the RPM vs battery voltage both when the engine is cold and when the engine is hot?
Probably too much to ask what the rotor resistance is when it is hot, huh.

RE: patience...  I can live with your bike F'd up for as long as you can.  I'm not going to burst your happy little bubble if you are enjoying poking all around the problem instead of solving it.
I can only try to guide you toward the "fix it" goal.  You are going to have to walk the walk.
.....Or crawl, as the case may be.

Cheers,

[leekellerking]

That is the solenoid I have in my 82 Nighthawk 650.  The guy shipped it quickly, too, which was important to me as Bikey was completely down after I broke the old solenoid from uninstalling/installing it too many times. 

I had to rearrange the pinout of the connector, but If I could figure it out without blowing up something, I'm sure that YOU can do it, too.  I can check it this weekend and send you a photo or schematic, if you'd like.

I have had absolutely no problems with the switch since I installed it, although I sometimes fantasize about rerouting the wires a bit to make the install a little more elegant.  (Yea, right). 


Lee

quote author=Kit link=topic=42826.msg514122#msg514122 date=1238124395]
found this on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140310229637&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:MOTORS:1123

What do you think, if switching the solenoid works?  ...at that price, I'm tempted anyway, just because the existing one is STILL 30 years old, and still relies on hard-to-obtain 30A honda fuses, as opposed to easy-to-find blade-type 30A fuses., found at any gas station...

[/quote]

[mlinder]

Kit, bring it by Sunday. Marcus and I will test the charging system.

[Frankenkit]

I'll ride it around today and test voltage output at the battery when running/hot... but am I wrong in thinking the bike should still be able to start at 12.36v?

Whatever it is, it's improved a bit since I cleaned the ignition switch.  After a ride like that I would have been in the 11s. 

[mlinder]

Yes, it should start at 12.36.

[Frankenkit]

That is the solenoid I have in my 82 Nighthawk 650.  The guy shipped it quickly, too, which was important to me as Bikey was completely down after I broke the old solenoid from uninstalling/installing it too many times. 

I had to rearrange the pinout of the connector, but If I could figure it out without blowing up something, I'm sure that YOU can do it, too.  I can check it this weekend and send you a photo or schematic, if you'd like.

I have had absolutely no problems with the switch since I installed it, although I sometimes fantasize about rerouting the wires a bit to make the install a little more elegant.  (Yea, right). 


Lee

A schematic and pics might help.  ...am i reading this right, in that you had to take it apart and rearrange the insides?  just flipping it wasn't going to work for you?

TT- The reason I had such a long 'wait' for incoming info was that the carbs had sprung a bad leak, so I was waiting for parts, putting carbs back on, fiddling with the carbs and synching because the bike wasn't running right, eventually bringing the bike back home, and here we are now.  Hard to test starting under op. temp conditions when the bike is a) not running b) not in my possession.  Thanks for joining me on the crawl, however it may be.

[Frankenkit]

Kit, bring it by Sunday. Marcus and I will test the charging system.

I think X is hopped up to ride it to you guys Sunday while I'm at work. 

Everything apparently checks out when cold, is the thing.  Resistance and voltage, etc seem right for parts, I kick out 14.9v at 5rpms when the bike is still a little cold. 

I'll do some electrical poking today of my own and report my results (if any, really.)

[mlinder]

Kit, bring it by Sunday. Marcus and I will test the charging system.

I think X is hopped up to ride it to you guys Sunday while I'm at work. 

Everything apparently checks out when cold, is the thing.  Resistance and voltage, etc seem right for parts, I kick out 14.9v at 5rpms when the bike is still a little cold. 

I'll do some electrical poking today of my own and report my results (if any, really.)

ok

[leekellerking]

I think (from my dim memory) that I pulled the four connectors and switched them left/right and up/down, but I'm not sure. Just inverting the plug did not work.  (It may not fit because of the shape).

I'll try and look tonight.  It wasn't that much work as there are not that many combinations.  I blew a fuse or two doing it, but no real damage.

Lee

That is the solenoid I have in my 82 Nighthawk 650.  The guy shipped it quickly, too, which was important to me as Bikey was completely down after I broke the old solenoid from uninstalling/installing it too many times. 

I had to rearrange the pinout of the connector, but If I could figure it out without blowing up something, I'm sure that YOU can do it, too.  I can check it this weekend and send you a photo or schematic, if you'd like.

I have had absolutely no problems with the switch since I installed it, although I sometimes fantasize about rerouting the wires a bit to make the install a little more elegant.  (Yea, right). 


Lee

A schematic and pics might help.  ...am i reading this right, in that you had to take it apart and rearrange the insides?  just flipping it wasn't going to work for you?

TT- The reason I had such a long 'wait' for incoming info was that the carbs had sprung a bad leak, so I was waiting for parts, putting carbs back on, fiddling with the carbs and synching because the bike wasn't running right, eventually bringing the bike back home, and here we are now.  Hard to test starting under op. temp conditions when the bike is a) not running b) not in my possession.  Thanks for joining me on the crawl, however it may be.

[Frankenkit]

well the guy has a schematic on his ebay site.  I can see how you *could* do it... hmm.

[leekellerking]

The schematic on his page didn't help me that much, but I'm mechanically challenged. 

I had to do it the old fashioned way -- futz around until I got it right. 

Lee

well the guy has a schematic on his ebay site.  I can see how you *could* do it... hmm.

[Frankenkit]

at least fuses are cheap.

[leekellerking]

And a lot easier to change that that stupid fusible link that comes OEM.   

at least fuses are cheap.

[Frankenkit]

Uh, might wait 'til Sunday because I'm realizing I'll need four hands to hold the multimeter leads, hold the handlebars and rev.   
If we're talking resistances when hot, I can probably do that (provided I don't toast my fingers) but voltage will have to wait 'til I have a volunteer. 

From what I got of it this morning, just starting it up and warming it up, it comes off the trickle charger at 14.6v, but by the time its warm enough to ride, it's dropped to 12.5, which is still 99%, and should rise when revved, but... need those spare hands.

TT, what specifically should I test when the bike is at operating temperature? 

[TwoTired]

Uh, might wait 'til Sunday because I'm realizing I'll need four hands to hold the multimeter leads, hold the handlebars and rev.   
If we're talking resistances when hot, I can probably do that (provided I don't toast my fingers) but voltage will have to wait 'til I have a volunteer. 

From what I got of it this morning, just starting it up and warming it up, it comes off the trickle charger at 14.6v, but by the time its warm enough to ride, it's dropped to 12.5, which is still 99%, and should rise when revved, but... need those spare hands.

No you don't.  You just need test leads with alligator clips on the ends.  Or, jumper wires with alligator clips.

TT, what specifically should I test when the bike is at operating temperature? 

Battery voltage vs RPM.  And, if that is low, then turn off the bike, disconnect the alternator at the R/R, and check that rotor resistance while still hot.

Cheers,

[manjisann]

Wow, this is interesting reading. Kit, by the time you are done, you will have solved every possible problem these bikes can have, and I won't have to ask any questions    Seriously, thanks to all for contributing, its a wealth of knowledge!

Brandon

[Frankenkit]

I just want to make sure I approach this right-

I'm going to go out and ride it until failure situation, then test the voltage again.
From there, I know I can test the stator by putting the black probe in one of the yellow connectors coming from the stator (at the R/R) and testing resistance to the others.

How do I test the rotor's resistance at the RR, again?   sorry, I just have no memory for this stuff. Do I just put one probe in the black connector and one in the white, or will I short something?

[Duke McDukiedook]

I don't know on a 650 but the reistance setting on your VOM puts out so little a current I don't think you'll have to worry about frying anything.

[TwoTired]

How do I test the rotor's resistance at the RR, again?   sorry, I just have no memory for this stuff. Do I just put one probe in the black connector and one in the white, or will I short something?

Sounds right. Use the black an white that goes to the rotor.  See wire diagram.

Cheers,

[Frankenkit]

Well, I KNOW the need to know has been itching and burning like a scary VD, so I shan't disappoint.

I went for a ride, just up around the block.  Voltage started at 12.9 when starting the bike... forgot to test once I was warmed up. 14.8 again at sustained 5k rpms.

Went around the block (long block, maybe 2-3mi) a ways from 4.5-7k, averaging speeds of 30-50mph.

Voltage after ride:
After testing to make sure it was in failure mode, I quick pulled the headlight fuse as suggested earlier to see if it helped.  It didn't.
That's when I cussed because I was supposed to test charging voltage vs. rpms. 
gruh.

Voltage after ride:
Lights on, bike 'on', 11.84v
Lights off, bike off, 12.42v

Pulled the side cover and checked rotor resistance.
Note: before this ride, I pulled the alternator cover and cleaned up the rings (again) they had dark wear spots, but some 600# sandpaper took them down to new copper. 
Ring-to-ring resistance was 4.4 ohms.
Brush to RR (checking the wiring now) resistance was about .5 ohms.
For whatever silly reason, though, once I put everything back together and tested it again, the rotor resistance at the RR was 4.7.  At the low end of acceptable.

When I got back in, while everything was still hot,
rotor resistance at the RR was 11.2ohms.

[TwoTired]

Where were you measuring the 11.2 ohms?

Do you have new rotor brushes?