Author Topic: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue' (Read 76919 times)

TwoTired · « **Reply #150 on:** March 30, 2009, 10:01:40 pm »

A load test places a large, fixed, current load on the fully charged battery, simulating a reasonable starter motor draw. The starter motor will initially draw about 200 Amps, and then about 100 amps to keep the motor spinning. While doing this, the voltage should not drop below 10.5 V.

When batteries cannot meet this task, they often appear to recharge very quickly. The same properties that allow it to deliver high currents, also prevent it from changing its charge state quickly.

It has to do with electrolyte contact area on the batteries plates. Large plates with a lot of contact area are able to convert lots of chemical activity to electrical current. If the electrolyte is contaminated, the chemical activity is usually diminished. Or, if the plate surface is obstructed from full contact with electrolyte power conversion suffers. Also, that is acid inside the battery, and the internal metals can corrode away, leaving less plate surface area.
Ther are lots of battery failure conditions.

Cheers,

MickeyX · « **Reply #151 on:** March 30, 2009, 10:14:46 pm »

So, if we end up finding that it is the battery, is there a better kind out there? This is the 2nd new one we've gone through in the last year.

TwoTired · « **Reply #152 on:** March 30, 2009, 10:26:30 pm »

I've not been disappointed by the Yuasa brand.

It seems that recycled metals vary in purity with the amount of processing done to it. Less processing is cheaper, but the plate material isn't as pure. The cheaper batteries don't seem to last as long as the Yuasa given proper care. I speculate that plate metal purity may well be the difference.

The Yuasa brand does typically cost more. $:-\$

Cheers,

Hush · « **Reply #153 on:** March 31, 2009, 12:08:07 am »

I'm running a Yuasa YB12A-A and it has a stamp on it stating that it has "Sulphate stop" apparently to resist the build-up of sulphate.
Battery is just 12 months old as it was one of the first things I bought when I started the rebuild.

Pinhead · « **Reply #154 on:** March 31, 2009, 02:33:53 am »

I'm running a Wal-Mart battery that I bought way back in '06. It's never been on a trickle charger and I can walk out there any time and crank my bike over and over without worrying about a dead battery. In fact, this spring it took me a while to get it started, as one of my spark plug wires had come loose. The battery just kept cranking and cranking 'til she started up. IDK if I just got lucky with the battery, if it has anything to do with the R/R that I built for my bike (link in my sig) or the fact that I never actually initially "charged" it... But it's was a $30 battery and it's been working perfectly well for me.

Do you normally have to charge a battery when you first fill it with acid? When I got mine, I just dumped the acid in and put it on the bike. It instantly measured above 12 volts so I cranked the bike over and rode around. Maybe that has to do to this battery's longer-than-expected lifespan... I don't know.

Frankenkit · « **Reply #155 on:** March 31, 2009, 07:33:48 am »

Well, Hush... you have a yuasa and the same exact problems I'm having... :-/ I guess they're not perfect. ...or we have different problems... or something.

TwoTired · « **Reply #156 on:** March 31, 2009, 09:54:44 am »

Quote from: Kit on March 31, 2009, 07:33:48 am

Well, Hush... you have a yuasa and the same exact problems I'm having... :-/ I guess they're not perfect. ...or we have different problems... or something.

Two points, then you decide what you want.
1) A starter motor that is drawing excessive current, or a battery that won't provide enough current for a good starter motor will exhibit the same symptoms/problems with starting.
2) My Motorcycle shop owner buddy says that the in last two or three years, he's noticed more frequent battery replacement intervals for his customers. Battery longevity has gone down noticeably in his business, requiring more frequent replacement intervals for the lower cost batteries he sells.
I can see the stack of batteries he has collected just since last year, waiting to be sent to the recycling center. He has replaced a lot of them.

Example: I bought one of his cheaper brand "Parts Unlimited" brand batteries last year for my CB700SC. I kept it on the tender when not riding. It stopped working after 1 year. There is no freaking kick start on the bike. the battery will run the lights, but not the starter motor. Replaced the battery, and it starts and runs fine. I have a Yuasa on order.

Cheers,

TwoTired · « **Reply #157 on:** March 31, 2009, 09:56:51 am »

Quote from: Hush on March 31, 2009, 12:08:07 am

I'm running a Yuasa YB12A-A and it has a stamp on it stating that it has "Sulphate stop" apparently to resist the build-up of sulphate.
Battery is just 12 months old as it was one of the first things I bought when I started the rebuild.

Are you saying your battery is testing bad?

I run that same battery in my 550's. They have given me good service.

Soos · « **Reply #158 on:** March 31, 2009, 10:02:13 am »

Odd, I have a cheapie wallyworld battery.
(hate to admit I have bought things from that hell hole)
Been using it for now the third year....
Still no problems.

I think with the battery i dropped off for recycling the one I bought came to... about $25.

I'm actually tempted to get a li-ion battery the same size as my current battery... but the $$ is CRAZY!
I checked into that over the winter, I think I was quoted 300+.
Not to mention I have NO idea if the charging system of a cb650 would be able to properly charge it.

l8r

mlinder · « **Reply #159 on:** March 31, 2009, 10:50:36 am »

Quote from: Kit on March 30, 2009, 03:27:08 pm

Worth a shot.
It'd be a bummer to need a new(er) battery, but I guess there's a possibility it's gotten fried.

I'll look for a place in B-town that can do load tests, just outta convenience. This needs to get nailed down.

your sig quote makes me wonder whether Herbert felt the Atreidies government was liberal or not, through all its generations and incarnations.

Yeah, interested to hear how this turns out, Kit.

No, LetoII was neither liberal nor conservative. I think most of the atredies were both, though. Fit into both categories in some ways but neither well.

martino1972 · « **Reply #160 on:** March 31, 2009, 11:08:24 am »

my 650 does the same thing......at any given time i can expect to push start the bike....and there's no golden rule for when it happens,sometimes after a 10 minute drive,sometimes after a few hours,sometimes not at all.....

I got it apart for the headgasket now and I'm gonna do some searching on the starter issue.......
If I do find something,I'll let you know......

Frankenkit · « **Reply #161 on:** March 31, 2009, 11:29:50 am »

This is BS. WTF. that's three 650s with this same issue, everything's testing out okay on mine, we're back to questioning the battery which will charge to 12.9 and stay there (though a load test will be cheap insurance, as will more testing for parasitic drain) ARRRGHHHH
Just frustrated. This is STILL BS.
I wouldn't mind so much if I could bumpstart the bike and have it still run smoothly, but by the time it's not wanting to make the amps to start right, it's also seriously lacking in the spark department and runs like crap, so if I did start just riding to school and work, I'd still have to worry about whether or not I'd really make it all the way home (if it started when I was ready to go at the end of the day)

The only ones with 650s not having this issue are Soos and Pinhead, who have totally overhauled their electrical systems (or at least that's my understanding) where Soos uses low-ohm coils and Pinhead uses a home-made RR. Oh, and Lee, who had his rotor rewound, replaced his starter solenoid, and...? This is not a promising thought.

Just venting frustrations here. This has been 11 pages of pretty circular thinking, and I'm not really complaining so much as expressing how while things seem to test out 'within spec'... it's certainly not performing to regular operating standards.

Tomorrow I'm going to go back and clean and reassemble my stator, then test the way Pinhead suggests, with the white and black wires going to the battery, to see if my motor bogs, then test vAC from the stator again to see if the stator really is, for sure, okay... though it seems to be if I'm making 14.9v at 5k rpms.

The starter draw makes me curious but I'm not sure what I can do about it. I tested the starter thoroughly and it had continuity everywhere it was supposed to and read OL everywhere it was supposed to. I cleaned and lubed it, it cranks like a champ when it's cold and tries like hell when it's warm.
I've noticed a very slight improvement since installing LED idiot lights (not that they're on very often?) and the old bulbs were badly melted at the electrode in the bottom. i.e. the convex surface was melted concave. WTF would do that and is THAT normal?
I'm just sort of feeling like I'm at wits' end here. TT, I suspect our communicative failure comes in where I'm an abstract, conceptual thinker and don't work well when trying with 'logic' and 'linear' thoughts.
Marti, have a damn good fiddle with it, I think the more minds we have working on this, the better. Right now I'm having strong suspicions that the problem lies more in a little being wrong with a lot of the components, instead of one single thing failing by itself.

martino1972 · « **Reply #162 on:** March 31, 2009, 11:50:57 am »

when the starter fails(sounds like the battery is dead) I can start it easy with a quick bump in gear,not a problem...she has never stranded me and my battery is as crappy as it comes.....(when I got the bike it was standing for a few years in a cold shop,hitting minus 30 c easy.....I drained the fluid ,filled her up again and charged her the first 20 minutes with the polarity reversed to shock the battery,then gave her a full charge....she is weak,but she works....lol.....

I will do some searching on it,I know my charging system works good....It must be something in the starter circuit...starter button,starter motor,starter relay,ground,etc..... I never even tried to cross the solenoid when the starter fails,but I'll see what happens......

scunny · « **Reply #163 on:** March 31, 2009, 01:31:29 pm »

haven't had a problem with my 650, but I have removed the fugly fuse panel and installed blade fuses next to the battery.
on a side note, a friends Ducati monster had the same symptons and the dealer replaced the solenoid ?

martino1972 · « **Reply #164 on:** March 31, 2009, 02:34:23 pm »

Quote from: scunny on March 31, 2009, 01:31:29 pm

a friends Ducati monster had the same symptons and the dealer replaced the solenoid ?

That would be my biggest suspect,that's why i want to try and cross the poles of it when it acts up again....also the start button might not give enough power to the solenoid for it to fully engage.....easy to solve that with an automotive relay....
right now my cylinderhead is off and it would be too cold still to drive/test.......

Hush · « **Reply #165 on:** March 31, 2009, 02:40:19 pm »

You've just replaced your solenoid with a brand spanker haven't you Kit?
I have vague recollections of someone sagely warning me about the 650 having a weak charging system but my pet mechanic (who was a Honda aprentic) tells me that the Honda charging components were sought after by other makers like Yamaha because they had such a low failure rate??
Like Marti (who the Hell let you near a battery charger?? reverse polarity indeed

) I have no probs crash starting, bike rolls forward 6 inches and fires straight up.
If the righthand control wasn't such a PITA to dissasemble I'd get in there and clean the start button up again---but did that when in rebuild.
I'm still using the horrible old original gillutine fuse as a main fuse, that looks fairly nasty and hard to clean up.
I still want to know what happens Kit if your bike dies and you short across the solenoid terminals thus taking the start button out of the circuit, please humour me next time it dies on you.

martino1972 · « **Reply #166 on:** March 31, 2009, 03:19:23 pm »

Quote from: Hush on March 31, 2009, 02:40:19 pm

Like Marti (who the Hell let you near a battery charger?? reverse polarity indeed )

Laugh all you want....I never have to buy a new battery....not in my car's or bike.....I get the old batteries from people and been laughing all the way to the bank.......

that aside,back to kit.......

leekellerking · « **Reply #167 on:** March 31, 2009, 04:26:59 pm »

Quote from: Kit on March 31, 2009, 11:29:50 am

Oh, and Lee, who had his rotor rewound, replaced his starter solenoid, and...?

I replaced the solenoid because the old one fell apart in my hand from being installed/uninstalled one to many times. I also replaced the reg/rec, but I think that was premature as my rotor was bad and was causing my main fuse to blow at speed.

I truly understand your frustration!

http://www.twtex.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32255&highlight=nighthawk

However, I also trust you will be able to figure it out.

God bless,

Lee

MosquitoJones · « **Reply #168 on:** March 31, 2009, 04:27:37 pm »

You know, I don't want to jinx myself but I've never had anything remotely resembling this problem. My only issue is losing power at speed, which comes and goes. I wonder if it's endemic to the '80 model?

Frankenkit · « **Reply #169 on:** March 31, 2009, 04:28:33 pm »

got the new spanker in the mail today. Will put it in tomorrow on my 'fiddle day' (aka "homework day") between school days. I'm just too sick with this stupid cold to wanna do it tonight.

I also need to look at it to see if I need to reverse it like Lee did in his Nighthawk? Hmm. I'm almost thinking I could just put it in backwards so the 'B' still goes to the Battery and M still goes to the Motor (the big attachment bolts are backwards)

I think I should still do the LED thing to streamline the power usage by the rest of the bike (LED front running lights/turn signals, tail light) but I'm going to do everything cheapest-first to try to spare my wallet... but wouldn't it also sorta follow that the less the charging system has to support, the more power can go to a) running the bike b) charging the battery?

In this and many issues, TT warns us against crutches or bandaids over serious and real problems. (i.e. inline filters 'fixing' a rusty tank, or resistors next to the starter solenoid, LED lighting making up for a charging system hobbled by dirty connections, etc etc) but if my system has checked out mostly okay, it's just not properly charging over shorter rides (or city riding) then (at least in my understanding) lowering the energy cost of the running, functioning bike (stock coils, LED lights, stock wattage headlight) should put more in the piggy bank that is the battery AS LONG AS the bike is kept within charging RPM range, which is, (apparently?) 3-4k+. This reduced energy cost should also, theoretically, reduce the amount of drain occurring outside that RPM range (time spent warming up, stop lights, etc)

Is this all sounding correct?

scunny · « **Reply #170 on:** March 31, 2009, 04:46:06 pm »

IMHO your reasoning is fine, lights etc when operating at or below the charging range of your alterator would help to an extent. what I'm having trouble getting my head around is the fact that after your bike cools down it is fine again. I know a battery regains some of it's ability to deliver power after it's rested.
what I would do is to install a voltmeter or your multimeter so you can see what is happening in real time

Frankenkit · « **Reply #171 on:** March 31, 2009, 05:53:06 pm »

when it cools down, it starts again. I've actually not seen much difference lately in charging, between hot or cold. the voltmeter idea would give me a lot more info, though.

leekellerking · « **Reply #172 on:** March 31, 2009, 07:14:12 pm »

Quote from: Kit on March 31, 2009, 05:53:06 pm

when it cools down, it starts again. I've actually not seen much difference lately in charging, between hot or cold. the voltmeter idea would give me a lot more info, though.

That sounds to me more like a starter (or starter clutch) problem, Kit. But I'm just saying.

Mosquito Jones -- have you tried removing the cover to the air filter and using large washers to hold the filter in? It made a world of difference for my 82 CB650SC.

Before I did that, it would lose power and slow down to 60 to 65 mph on the freeway. Now it doesn't.

Lee

Frankenkit · « **Reply #173 on:** March 31, 2009, 07:27:22 pm »

Whoof, Lee, you went through WAY more than I did. My battery just seems to drain a little fast and not recharge quite like it should, so when it's warm and the battery's still discharged, it doesn't want to start. Let it sit awhile, the lead acid battery recovers some voltage and she starts up and runs okay again, but just not as smooth as when it has a full battery.

The rotor doesn't look fried like yours, though. I might consider new brushes or something because at a certain point on the sliprings, the wear mark gets a little lighter and fainter. It's a grasp at straws, but if the brush doesn't have a constant contact, it might mean some of the charging problem I'm seeing.

Looks like tomorrow will be busy; load test on the battery, figure out the new starter solenoid, put the stator etc back together, take the bike out for a good ride and see if she charges enough that I can park somewhere for a little while and expect to be able to start again...?

Man I hope the weather's alright.

I haven't blown a fuse yet, though.

leekellerking · « **Reply #174 on:** March 31, 2009, 07:40:38 pm »

Patience, Grasshopper. One must have patience to walk the Way of the 650.

Never, never, never pray for patience. You may get it the hard way.

Lee

Quote from: Kit on March 31, 2009, 07:27:22 pm

Whoof, Lee, you went through WAY more than I did. My battery just seems to drain a little fast and not recharge quite like it should. I haven't blown a fuse yet, though.

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Author Topic: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue' (Read 76919 times)