Author Topic: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue' (Read 76914 times)

leekellerking · « **Reply #225 on:** April 03, 2009, 01:31:41 pm »

Quote from: Pinhead on April 03, 2009, 01:09:30 pm

Are you measuring at the copper slip rings themselves or at the wiring connector? The brushes will add a little resistance here and there when the engine is stopped. When the engine is running it's impossible to get an accurate reading. If you're measuring at the slip rings, you may want to take some really fine sandpaper and go over the surface of the copper, as a thin film tends to form over the rings making it hard to get an accurate reading.

I used Scotchbright and DeOxit contact cleaner.

http://www.deoxit.com/

Also, for anyone who needs it, I'm pasting part of a troubleshooting FAQ from Tony Weeks' page, www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com. ( bolded the part relevant to this conversation)

7. Diagnostics for 1979~1984 Honda 750~1100 DOHC fours (and SOHC CB650)

The following information also applies to the CB550 Nighthawk but the resistance on the field coil (black to white wires) is
lower. Honda has released an updated stator/field coil assembly for this bike (this is the only bike I know that uses this
arrangement) and I recommend calling the Honda dealer for this information as the manual may be wrong.

The first test is to test the voltage between the red wire on the rectifier / voltage regulator unit (do not unplug it for this test) and ground with the bike running. If you're only getting battery voltage then you have a problem. If you're getting over 15 volts then the regulator is bad.

At first all those wires look rather intimidating but once you break it down it's rather simple. Unplug both of the connectors and
use the test procedure above to test the rectifier part of the unit. The red wire is positive and the green wire is negative and test them against the 3 yellow AC leads.

The next test is to test the voltage regulator. Plug the small plug from the regulator / rectifier back into the wiring harness. With
the ignition on but the bike not running and if the regulator is good, you should get less than battery voltage between the black
and white wires in the large plug from the regulator / rectifier. You can do this test with the bike running but I find it usually
doesn't make any difference.

If these test have positive results the next thing to check is the resistance on the rotor. Remove the alternator cover and check
the resistance between copper rings on the rotor. There should be 4.5 ~6 ohms resistance if it's good. Most of the time when
rotors are bad there will be either infinite resistance (completely burnt out) or less than 2 ohms resistance (internally shorted.)
Either way you're looking at getting a new rotor. If the rotor checks out good the next step is to check the resistance between
the black and white wires (with the alternator cover installed.) Wiggle and tug slightly on these wires during this test. If the
resistance changes at all during this test or is different than the resistance between the copper rings on the rotor, the wires leading to the brushes (black and white wires) will need to be replaced. The wires to the brushes going bad is more common than one
ouw think
The next thing to check is stator. I left this test for last because this is the least likely thing to go wrong. There should be about
.5 to 1 ohm resistance between the yellow wires from the stator and infinite to ground if the unit is good.

Frankenkit · « **Reply #226 on:** April 03, 2009, 02:07:14 pm »

you mean the case guard has to come off AGAIN?!?!

yeah, I'll test at the sliprings after the next ride. The stator's testing out just fine. I've cleaned the rotor surface many, many times. Do I need to clean/polish it EVERY time I test it?

Hush · « **Reply #227 on:** April 03, 2009, 02:13:36 pm »

Glad to see youall got thet shiny newfangled solenoid fitted, same model is available here in Godzone so may look at that myself next...........happy riding.

leekellerking · « **Reply #228 on:** April 03, 2009, 02:33:19 pm »

Only if you are CDO (which is "OCD" arranged correctly; that is, alphabetically).

Lee
(Okay, I stole that joke from my wife who is OCD...I mean CDO)

Quote from: Kit on April 03, 2009, 02:07:14 pm

you mean the case guard has to come off AGAIN?!?!

yeah, I'll test at the sliprings after the next ride. The stator's testing out just fine. I've cleaned the rotor surface many, many times. Do I need to clean/polish it EVERY time I test it?

MickeyX · « **Reply #229 on:** April 04, 2009, 07:23:39 pm »

We went for a nice ride for a few hours, stopped 1/2 way to chat and rest. She started up just fine again, cooled enough just to need a bit of choke for a few minutes and away we went. Got home, re-checked a few things and noticed something weird. Well, at least to me it's weird...

The rotor checked out okay (when still hot) across the rings, the yellow wires checked out okay, but the wiring from the brushes was a little suspect. I'm wondering what they should show for resistance? The one was at 1.3ohms, one at .8 ohms, measuring each separately from one end to the other, tip of brush to end of wire. (I've been wondering if one or both get too hot or are a bit crispy after all this time) I will recheck them now that everything is cooled way down to see if it changes.

Edit: well, I went back out there to check the brushes to the end of the wiring to see if the resistance had changed. So, upon experimenting, I learned something. I'm just not sure what I learned.

So... I checked resistance on each and they had changed drastically. But! upon pushing the brush in just a hair on one of them, the resistance dropped to .6 ohms. ?? Then I did the same to the other one and it dropped to .6 ohms. Jut barely touching the tip of the brush though, they varied from 1.4 -3.2 ohms.
What I'm wondering is... do the brushes sit up against the rotor and depending on how long they are (how new they are), they get pushed into the housing against the springs and it gives a steady resistance? Maybe if one or both get worn down just a smidge too much, they don't get pushed back in from the rotor and they don't conduct as well? Or the other way around, maybe the spring gets worn won't let them contact the rotor enough? As you can see, I know nothing about the brushes to rotor contact or if they should touch at all... I'm just throwing some stuff out there. It just struck me that the R would change so much and fluctuate like that depending on IF the brush was pushed into it's housing. Any amount of the brush being pushed in though, no matter how deep or shallow, gave .6 ohms. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

So the $64 question is... should we be looking to replace the brushes? Are they at the end of their life?

As for the black and white wires from the brushes, I isolated them without the brushes and they have continuity and measure .3 ohms cold.

Spanner 1 · « **Reply #230 on:** April 04, 2009, 08:01:46 pm »

You might be on to something, Ms. X, as the brushes should have a pliable, braided, soft wire attached from their backside and connected to the lead-out wires ( black+white ).
So, I think I'd undo the bracket that holds the brush assembly , 1 or 2 screws ?, and take a closer look......i.e. brush out or pushed-in should make no diff. to R reading as it's a solid connection, or should be !

Hush · « **Reply #231 on:** April 05, 2009, 03:42:45 am »

As brushes are a cheap thing to replace Mickey/Kit and you already have the side off I'd replace them just to eliminate the chance of them being dodgy.
I remember putting my bike back together (it came in boxes remember) and the stator and brushes were pretty badly coated in black carbon deposits, I checked them all and they seemed OK but I think I'll take my own advice and replace just to be sure.
Spanner is spot on when he says they should read the same either extended on their springs or pushed back into their holders...unless they or their braids are making contact with something they shouldn't.

mystic_1 · « **Reply #232 on:** April 05, 2009, 07:15:38 am »

It's possible that the brushes are worn but there's another possibility, multimeter technique. When measuring, often the part you're measuring will hav ea thin layer of crap on it, so thin that it's invisible to the eye but it's electrically significant. In addition, all metals have a thin layer of oxidation on them unless you've recently cleaned them.

So, when applying the probes, I like to use a slight scratching motion to work the point of the probe through this film, then press firmly. This ensures good electrical contact.

To see if it's this causing the problem, or if the brush is actually changing resistance, apply your probe from a direction that does not push DOWN on the brush, but rather to the side, if possible.

As to the brushes themselves, with experience you can actually tell from the positions of the spring ends whether they're worn down or not. New brushes are very long and when installed and the springs will be near the outer end of their range of motion. As they wear down and the spring moves inward, it starts applying less and less force to the brushes until it reaches it's inner range of motion. At this point the spring cannot push the brush any further because it's in contact with the housing. The brush stops wearing out because it's not being pressed against the slip rings (or commuter in a motor), but it's not in full contact any more so it conducts poorly if at all.

If you can find new brushes, like Hush says they're cheap, install them to eliminate doubt.

mystic_1

manjisann · « **Reply #233 on:** April 05, 2009, 08:01:34 am »

Kit, sorry if I have the wrong one of your threads, but you said you replaced your idiot lights and guage lights with LEDs, what and where did you get them?

Congrats on getting the bike running, you've worked hard at it, and deserve it!!

Brandon

MickeyX · « **Reply #234 on:** April 05, 2009, 08:30:21 am »

Hey manjisann... Kit's at work but I'm pretty sure she got them at http://superbrightleds.com/led_prods.htm
I just went on the site and it looks like you can cross reference your current bulbs there and find the LED replacement part for them. I don't know what she paid per bulb, I'm thinking around $2 but then you have to add in the cost of shipping which wasn't much at all as I recall, like $5 for the whole thing and they were here in a few days. She's really happy with what she got and it does use less energy than the original ones but these are so much brighter.

As for checking the brushes, yeah mystic1, I checked the brushes down the sides too and I cleaned them off and rechecked. Same scenario. I'm going back out to the garage this morning to pull the entire stator out so I can get at things better (I just took the 2 bolts out and flipped the brush assembly over yesterday) and recheck it all and see how it all goes together. I think I'll just get 2 sets, one for each CB650 we have, and be done with it but I really want to understand what is going on here first. In the end, we will probably go with a new rotor and stator setup too but I don't see us needing those for a while yet. Probably change it out when the other bike gets done. (we already know that one's system is shot to pieces)

Thanks for the comments guys!!

leekellerking · « **Reply #235 on:** April 05, 2009, 03:27:32 pm »

Umm, Kit. Do you happen to remember the pinout that you had from the Reg/Rec to the solenoid BEFORE you attached the new solenoid?

I can't find my cheat sheet and I want to attach a new connector to my old Reg/Rec so I can sell it on Ebay.

Anybody? Bueller?

Lee

Quote from: Kit on April 02, 2009, 08:35:06 pm

Holy sh*t.
I changed the starter solenoid (new one, same as Leekellerking's) and battery cable (pos from battery to starter solenoid) cleaned and polished (to a shine!) the lugs and battery posts. They'd been cleaned before, but this time I really tore into them until they were quite smooth, then put a shine on just for the hell of it (smoother = more contact surface) and put a light coat of dielectric grease on everything. The posts had gotten torn up pretty badly from something? I wasn't aware of how irregular the mating surface was, so I filed it down a little and then just sanded it until it was smooth.

I changed the battery cable because a while ago, the lug to the battery had broken off, so I was using a copper one that I'd attempted to cold solder, but apparently it didn't work well. I tore the new one off MickeyX's 650 (sorry) and cleaned it thoroughly, attached.

The bike starts very quickly and easily now. With the choke on, warming it up at 2000 rpms, we were reading 14.5v at the lugs. I cranked it up to 4k rpms, and it spiked to 14.8, but then held at 14.5. Same with 5k rpms.
We shut it down so MickeyX could get some riding gear together. At the RR, the black and white wires read 7.2 ohms resistance after the bike had warmed up a bit.

The bike started right up again, with just a real quick touch on the button. MickeyX got the honors of this ride, so she took it down and around again, around the block twice putting her through her paces. Brought the bike in, and the battery read 12.7! Rotor resistance held at 7.2.

When starting it dipped from 11.9 (we had shut it off and had the lights etc on, and the circuit open, hence lower voltage) to 9.6 but went right back up again. (then we revved it a bit and shut it back down, for a final voltage of 12.57 at the battery)

Re-starting when warm it's just slightly slower than the cold start, but still really good, definitely not where I'd worry about whether or not it'd start again.

Wish I could chat more but I have to get some sleep...

I have some riding to do tomorrow!

Frankenkit · « **Reply #236 on:** April 05, 2009, 05:24:32 pm »

yeah. whatever your pinout is for the new starter solenoid, reverse it (g/r and r are reversed, and r/w and the r/y are reversed) and that'll be what works for the oldschool starter solenoid.

leekellerking · « **Reply #237 on:** April 05, 2009, 06:58:43 pm »

Quote from: Kit on April 05, 2009, 05:24:32 pm

yeah. whatever your pinout is for the new starter solenoid, reverse it (g/r and r are reversed, and r/w and the r/y are reversed) and that'll be what works for the oldschool starter solenoid.

Are they just reversed left/right? Or left/right and top/bottom?

Lee
(wishing he could find his cheat sheet.

Frankenkit · « **Reply #238 on:** April 05, 2009, 07:10:23 pm »

um... top/bottom? The G/R is where the R is (and vice versa) and the r/w is where the r/y is.

M B
Red R/W
R/G R/Y

manjisann · « **Reply #239 on:** April 06, 2009, 04:09:02 am »

Thanks MickeyX and Kit, the 650 threads you have are incredibly informative. And also thanks to all who responded!

Brandon

leekellerking · « **Reply #240 on:** April 18, 2009, 07:59:47 pm »

FYI y'all, after bragging on my Batteries Plus battery a few weeks ago, it died on me Thursday morning. I got a replacement from AutoZone for $46.99 and installed it Thursday night (only missing one day of commuting).

A new battery is a good thing.

Lee

Hush · « **Reply #241 on:** April 18, 2009, 09:16:31 pm »

Martino adds new life to old batteries by "shocking" them by reverse charging, but hey can you trust a guy who welded chains together to make his rear shocks?

MickeyX · « **Reply #242 on:** May 03, 2009, 09:33:04 pm »

So about a week ago, Kit pulled out her starter and rechecked it. She noticed a slight catch in it, like a ticking. She pulled the starter out of the other bike and installed it but the bike has been down since then. Yesterday we did some work on it and today, I got to take her out for a good long ride. I brought her back hot and did a restart. No problem. It took about a second to catch and run. I tried it over and over and it started just fine.

I'll wait for a while now for Kit to put some miles on before I consider this THE fix we needed. Ya never know and I sure don't assume that we all have the same problem on this. I think with some of us, it will be the stator/rotor, some the R/R, some multiple things. (I think Samson is going to fall into the multiple category) I really, really, really, really hope this is it for Delilah, though. It was getting a bit frustrating...

Of course, they are calling for rain all week. Just when she is ready to ride.

Hush · « **Reply #243 on:** May 04, 2009, 12:17:31 am »

Have swapped out my rotor for a borrowed one but like you guys we are expecting a truckload of rain so testing will have to wait.

leekellerking · « **Reply #244 on:** September 15, 2009, 07:54:48 pm »

It's B-A-C-K!

I had a nice 70 mile ride on Saturday and stopped for gas. Turn on the key, hit the switch and "rrrrr, rrrrr, rrrr."

I push started the beast and it cranked right up. Went home and put it on the trickle charger and after a little while, it started fine.

I wonder if new brushes for the alternator would help?

Lee

Spanner 1 · « **Reply #245 on:** September 15, 2009, 08:18:22 pm »

Lee, if you have a problem with charging, sorry but your automatically 'banished' back to Page1 for a complete re-read !!

Frankenkit · « **Reply #246 on:** September 15, 2009, 09:06:13 pm »

mine 'came back' after the rewind and after cleaning the brushes and filing down a solder nub on the side of the rotor, it started charging just fine again. Lee, I suggest checking your resistance at the black and white spades over by your regulator/rectifier and seeing what they say.

Spanner 1 · « **Reply #247 on:** September 15, 2009, 09:46:47 pm »

Kit......rotor slingin' , solder shootin' , chargin' sussin' CB sister-meister !!

Frankenkit · « **Reply #248 on:** September 15, 2009, 09:55:43 pm »

Well, if you click on the 'delilah' in my sig line, on the last page (or maybe one back from that) I go over the most recent 'fix'. Although...
my bike started kinda slow tonight again. Voltage read at 12.6v, so that's tip-top. Doesn't get any better than that, eh? So I'm thinkin' about really, really cleaning up the switch pod on the right with the cutoff switch and starter button. I know, I know, I've done it already--- BUT I might not have done it quite well enough.

leekellerking · « **Reply #249 on:** September 16, 2009, 06:57:27 am »

Quote from: Spanner 1 on September 15, 2009, 08:18:22 pm

Lee, if you have a problem with charging, sorry but your automatically 'banished' back to Page1 for a complete re-read !!

I know, I know.

I'm going to pull the battery Saturday to check the electrolyte level and I probably need to replace the brushes on the alternator, anyway. The rebuilt rotor has less than a year on it and the voltage regulator is almost as new.

I am wondering if my starter is dragging? Bikey bump started right up the other day when he wouldn't e-start. I would feel better if it was the starter as then I know I won't get stranded. I have a 350 mile trip coming up weekend after next!

Lee

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Author Topic: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue' (Read 76914 times)