Topic: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'

[Hush]

12 volt bikes need a good battery to run well Kit, my partners GSX400 wont even idle if the battery is below a good charge, once charged it fires right up, my 650 is the same.
It is the only shared part except for gas (and the mains) that all cylinders use so it could be that his battery is the problem.
Will be interesting to see if Lee's solution works, I use a Yuasa battery, probably one of the better named lead/acid battery makers for bikes.

[Frankenkit]

ooookkkkkkaaaaayyyy, I got schooled.

[BVCB650]

12 volt bikes need a good battery to run well Kit, my partners GSX400 wont even idle if the battery is below a good charge, once charged it fires right up, my 650 is the same.
It is the only shared part except for gas (and the mains) that all cylinders use so it could be that his battery is the problem.
Will be interesting to see if Lee's solution works, I use a Yuasa battery, probably one of the better named lead/acid battery makers for bikes.

That's why I use a Battery Tender Jr. I keep it plugged in. Easy to see what mode it is in. My bike charges fine, but just in case......

[leekellerking]

That is why I am going to install the new battery (which it needs regardless) and keep an eye on things with my new $20 VOM.

One of the weird things with the charging system on my Honda, among others, is that it uses an electromagnet, not a permanent magnet, in the alternator.  No power to the electromagnet and the alternator does not work.

I will be checking connectors, etc., too!  I just HOPE it is only the battery.  Let's see how things work tomorrow and the next few days.

Oh, and by the way -- when my last battery went bad it started out as "marginal" according to the test run by AutoZone. This battery read "Bad."  No marginal about it; bad to the bone.  That may have caused the sudden loss of power.

Lee

12 volt bikes need a good battery to run well Kit, my partners GSX400 wont even idle if the battery is below a good charge, once charged it fires right up, my 650 is the same.
It is the only shared part except for gas (and the mains) that all cylinders use so it could be that his battery is the problem.
Will be interesting to see if Lee's solution works, I use a Yuasa battery, probably one of the better named lead/acid battery makers for bikes.

[BVCB650]

Mine were warm enough to get my attention once. I felt that the way they had them mounted on the rectifier bolt, it was getting heat soak off of the reg-rec so I insulated them with nylon washers. So far so good.

[leekellerking]

Well, it wasn't the battery.




Lee

That is why I am going to install the new battery (which it needs regardless) and keep an eye on things with my new $20 VOM.

[BVCB650]

Bummer!

[Frankenkit]

Hey, Lee, does it start running badly before it cuts out, or is it a sudden sorta thing?  I'm just wondering because on the 650 forum a guy had problems with his bike cutting out once it got nice and hot and it ended up being a heat soak problem with his pickup coils (the ones under the round right cover on the plate around the crankshaft.  I just woke up so cut me some slack... )  The bike would start up again once they cooled, however.  Until then, it'd only run on two if it ran at all.

I'm just throwing out guesses here...

[leekellerking]

Yes, it does start running poorly right before it cuts out, but the whole process is pretty quick (a minute or so?).  When it cools down, the battery is too low to turn the starter.

Also, it doesn't happen until after (1) I ride 28 miles to work, (2) the bike sits all day, and (3) I [attempt to] ride home.

So I am [now] thinking it is not charging.  Question is, why?

I have, within the last year, replaced the rotor and the Regulator/Rectifier.  Short in the stator cable?  Bad connection(s)? 

I will try and find out this weekend. (And I probably need to re-read this entire thread).

Lee

Hey, Lee, does it start running badly before it cuts out, or is it a sudden sorta thing?  I'm just wondering because on the 650 forum a guy had problems with his bike cutting out once it got nice and hot and it ended up being a heat soak problem with his pickup coils (the ones under the round right cover on the plate around the crankshaft.  I just woke up so cut me some slack... )  The bike would start up again once they cooled, however.  Until then, it'd only run on two if it ran at all.

I'm just throwing out guesses here...

[BVCB650]

Worn carbon brushes in the stator system? They are supposed to have little wear lines on them. I have one that wears quicker than the other for some reason.

[TwoTired]

Time to bring a DMM with you to measure battery voltage when it quits.

[leekellerking]

I was thinking the same thing.  I now have read [somewhere] that I was supposed to replace the brushes when I replaced the rotor.

Anybody ever replaced the brushes?  Did you use the hideously expensive Honda parts ($64 a set if you can find them) or aftermarket ($12 a set)?

I was ready to pay retail, but Wild West Honda doesn't have them in stock.

Lee

Worn carbon brushes in the stator system? They are supposed to have little wear lines on them. I have one that wears quicker than the other for some reason.

[BVCB650]

I was thinking the same thing.  I now have read [somewhere] that I was supposed to replace the brushes when I replaced the rotor.

Anybody ever replaced the brushes?  Did you use the hideously expensive Honda parts ($64 a set if you can find them) or aftermarket ($12 a set)?

I was ready to pay retail, but Wild West Honda doesn't have them in stock.

Lee

Worn carbon brushes in the stator system? They are supposed to have little wear lines on them. I have one that wears quicker than the other for some reason.

I have one that will need replacing in about 1/4 inch or so. I never replaced the rotor although they say you should.


http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.regulatorrectifier.com/catalog/images/10-113.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.regulatorrectifier.com/catalog/p1800/Honda-CB650-CB-750-CB900-CB1000C-CB1100-Rotor-Brushes/product_info.html%3FosCsid%3De86f027f95f5b9a28d729e8086220d16&usg=__EUHyn5BnpOk4BOm2SO2qHRqW1K4=&h=243&w=324&sz=64&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=AJQWJYjiV5HIwM:&tbnh=89&tbnw=118&prev=/images%3Fq%3D1979%2Bhonda%2Bcb650%2Brectifier%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4DKUS_enUS229US230%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

[Frankenkit]

I got my brushes at partsnmore, I think, and they were pretty cheap there, like $15.

[Hush]

Damn his problem sure sounds like your original problem eh Kit.
But Lee seems to have replaced all the bits you did.
Seems like a charging issue, like the charging system isn't working at all.
He can get to work (probably on the stored battery power) but can't ride home (cos he's used all teh battery up).
OK Lee do the brushes mate, they are a piece of pie to replace anyway....good luck with this..Hush.

[Frankenkit]

no, mine didn't really cut out ever. It just wouldn't start up until after it sat and cooled after awhile.  I still think Lee should test the brush resistance (resistance between the black and white wires) at his RR before touching anything else. TT is right though. We need to know what his battery voltage is when the bike is cutting out, if it's truly dead or if whatever mechanism starts the bike is inhibited by running heat (or acquired heat from a short).

[Achmed]

Some dead horse and poop pictures are what this thread looks to be needing.

[Frankenkit]

I dunno, this doesn't look like an ongoing argument with namecalling and implied insults to me, Achmed.  No one here is talking about the effectiveness of a product nor attempting to disprove said claims with data nor theory.  This is a discussion about the effectiveness of Honda's CB650/CB750C/CB900/CB1100/CX500/CX650 charging systems.
  BUT if you happen to own a bike mentioned above that's not charging or is cutting out, then by all means Achmed, post whatever you'd like.

I think Lee, TT, Hush and I have covered enough new ground here that we've yet to beat dead horses.

[leekellerking]

I dunno, this doesn't look like an ongoing argument with namecalling and implied insults to me, Achmed.  No one here is talking about the effectiveness of a product nor attempting to disprove said claims with data nor theory.  This is a discussion about the effectiveness of Honda's CB650/CB750C/CB900/CB1100/CX500/CX650 charging systems.
  BUT if you happen to own a bike mentioned above that's not charging or is cutting out, then by all means Achmed, post whatever you'd like.

I think Lee, TT, Hush and I have covered enough new ground here that we've yet to beat dead horses.

Hear! Hear!

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program -- I think I've fixed it!


Apparently, a couple of the yellow stator wires were rubbing agaiinst the frame near the connector to the reg/rec.

I replaced the burnt connectior with a spare (I got from Tony Weeks, BTW -- great guy at www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com) and we appear to be back in business.

I now get 12.5 volts at 2,500 rpm (I was getting less than 12 volts, this afternoon).  That sounds right, doesn't it Kit and Hush?

The sad part is  that if I'd followed Kits advice a few weeks ago and given the charging system a good inspection, I'd have avoided getting stranded.  When will I learn???




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[Frankenkit]

Hey Lee, I'm wondering... I was able to cram that big 6 point connector through the original slot for it, despite having one of Tony's RRs.  It was a bit of a 'different' fit, but it all held together and keeps things tucked in nice 'n neat.  Might help you avoid this in the future.
  12.5v at 2500 sounds about right.  Make sure you test as you go up to 5k, maybe have your wife hold the probes while you crank the throttle. Make sure you max out around 13.9-14.9ish just to be SURE you're makin' juice, but that definitely looks like that would've been the problem.
I think we all have our "I think I did it!" moments only to be followed closely by "Ooohh.  Didn't do it." moments.  My bike still starts slow sometimes despite a full battery so that bears more investigation.  ...and here I thought I had it, too, by monkeying with the start button's wiring.

Glad you found that, though! Lucky that you have the extra connector, too!

[Hush]

Yuck Lee that looks ugly, guess you found your bogie.

Kit, you have Iridium plugs in your 650, what make and number are they?
Iridium plugs are very expensive over here, they even sell second hand ones for like $50 for 4!
My bike was running a bit hairy today and I did the old touch-burn-ouch test to find #4 wasn't firing, replaced plug and all good, 30 mile ride just cos I could  and she's running fine but am seriously considering the advantages of the Iridium plugs.

[leekellerking]

I get 13.5 volts at 5,000 rpm.  (If I stand on the right hand side of the bike and hold the leads in my left hand, I can twist the throttle with my right hand.  All that Vietnamese and Chinese food eating finally paid off!)

I thought I read that more than about the mid 13s would boil your battery?  Was I dreaming? 

Ignorant question, Kit -- do I check the brush resistance while the bike is off or while it is running?

Lee

Hey Lee, I'm wondering... I was able to cram that big 6 point connector through the original slot for it, despite having one of Tony's RRs.  It was a bit of a 'different' fit, but it all held together and keeps things tucked in nice 'n neat.  Might help you avoid this in the future.
  12.5v at 2500 sounds about right.  Make sure you test as you go up to 5k, maybe have your wife hold the probes while you crank the throttle. Make sure you max out around 13.9-14.9ish just to be SURE you're makin' juice, but that definitely looks like that would've been the problem.
I think we all have our "I think I did it!" moments only to be followed closely by "Ooohh.  Didn't do it." moments.  My bike still starts slow sometimes despite a full battery so that bears more investigation.  ...and here I thought I had it, too, by monkeying with the start button's wiring.

Glad you found that, though! Lucky that you have the extra connector, too!

[Frankenkit]

In theory it should be the same both ways, Lee, but out of ease I'd just leave the bike off. Disconnect the big 6-spade connector (the one with the three stator spades and the black and white one) and test the black and white ones' resistance.  You sound like you're charging alright though, but this is just out of curiosity and to cover all your bases and make sure your brushes are ok.

[BVCB650]

I get 13.5 volts at 5,000 rpm.  (If I stand on the right hand side of the bike and hold the leads in my left hand, I can twist the throttle with my right hand.  All that Vietnamese and Chinese food eating finally paid off!)

I thought I read that more than about the mid 13s would boil your battery?  Was I dreaming? 

Ignorant question, Kit -- do I check the brush resistance while the bike is off or while it is running?

Lee

Hey Lee, I'm wondering... I was able to cram that big 6 point connector through the original slot for it, despite having one of Tony's RRs.  It was a bit of a 'different' fit, but it all held together and keeps things tucked in nice 'n neat.  Might help you avoid this in the future.
  12.5v at 2500 sounds about right.  Make sure you test as you go up to 5k, maybe have your wife hold the probes while you crank the throttle. Make sure you max out around 13.9-14.9ish just to be SURE you're makin' juice, but that definitely looks like that would've been the problem.
I think we all have our "I think I did it!" moments only to be followed closely by "Ooohh.  Didn't do it." moments.  My bike still starts slow sometimes despite a full battery so that bears more investigation.  ...and here I thought I had it, too, by monkeying with the start button's wiring.

Glad you found that, though! Lucky that you have the extra connector, too!

Maybe dreaming. 14-15 is max, but still normal.

[Hush]

Yeah I can get 14 to 15 volts out of my charging circuit but my battery tends to lose water frequently so maybe I'm not the one you should go by.