Author Topic: 1972 350 four, Resto attempt from ground zero (Read 24073 times)

Hush · « **Reply #25 on:** November 12, 2008, 02:06:13 AM »

Doesn't look like we can source these in NZ Phil, shame as looks like a good tool to have.
I can never have enough tools.

fishman_Phil · « **Reply #26 on:** November 12, 2008, 10:34:14 PM »

Hi Hush ... we can source them in NZ. We have them for sale at Bunnings here in New Plymouth where I work. I look after that area of the shop and got them in. Your local Bunnings can buy them in for you from Irwin. If you are keen I can email the SKU number that they would order with.
Cheers ... Phil in Nz

Jim · « **Reply #27 on:** November 13, 2008, 07:03:14 PM »

Thanks for that Tim.
I'm going to bid on that and try it.

I got the engine rolling over today after much heartache. I thought i would have to tear it down but a little extra time and a bit more rocking seems to have done the trick.

I guess i more or less have to do a ring job sib=nce i'm this deep eh.

Is there any issue with re-using this gasket on re-assembly?

It's rubber and would seem to be ok for re-use... does anyone add any kind of gasket seal or silicone here?

Keep talking guys.. it's all a help for me.
thanks all
J

Jim · « **Reply #28 on:** November 15, 2008, 01:45:29 PM »

I'm looking more closely and find these two "slots" at the back side of the head. It doesn't look like they are cast in place. The two at #1 and #4 intake are smaller 1/4" holes. These are long and narrow ...

Is this stock or something I need to JB? Anyone?
J

Tim in Ohio · « **Reply #29 on:** November 15, 2008, 02:26:04 PM »

Jim,
Here is a pic of my engine from the same angle... I am not seeing those big crevasses.

Not sure about the best approach to that issue. I bet KGHOST or Scunny could advise.
As for that gasket, IMHO... replace it.
Tim

Tim in Ohio · « **Reply #30 on:** November 15, 2008, 02:39:57 PM »

About those "slots"... Ilooked thru all of my rebuild pics and couldn't find a nice clear closeup of that area. Went out and tried to get a visual confirmation from the bike, but can't see that area. I'd pull my carbs off and check for ya, but... yeah... well, you know...
Good news... I checked Matt's rebuild thread and saw this... I guess there are slots!

Jim · « **Reply #31 on:** November 15, 2008, 07:50:06 PM »

Thanks a million Tim! I appreciate that ; man i was a bit worried.

I've heard about your rebuild thread and am only now looking thru it. Good work, Congrats; I hope i can do as well.
J

fishman_Phil · « **Reply #32 on:** November 15, 2008, 08:02:55 PM »

Those slots are there in my CB350F as well. Continue with your good work. Good to see you asking questions.
Cheers ... Phil in NZ

Jim · « **Reply #33 on:** November 16, 2008, 02:37:23 PM »

Guys;
Time for me to ask the stupid question. How much further do i go?

I've never run his bike and it hasn't been on the road for 18yrs. It has 15k miles on the clock.
Anyone's guess if it ran when it was parked. I'm interested in the laws of diminishing returns; not looking for much more than a decent ride w/ decent fuel consumption w/ decent power and not an oil burner..

Do i go deeper or do i focus on other systems equally... to get it on the road?

I'm looking here at Tim's thread and although I'm only a about a third of the way into that it it looks to me like he is/was at the same level of familiarity with engine design construction and rebuild as i am.
thanks
J

Tim in Ohio · « **Reply #34 on:** November 17, 2008, 10:01:27 AM »

Quote from: Jim on November 16, 2008, 02:37:23 PM

Guys;
Time for me to ask the stupid question. How much further do i go?...
... not looking for much more than a decent ride w/ decent fuel consumption w/ decent power and not an oil burner..

Do i go deeper or do i focus on other systems equally... to get it on the road?

Jim,
You've seen my thread, so you know that I am not speaking from the point of view of an "expert"... so here's my two cents.

First, I think you have to do some soul searching on how much you are able/willing to spend to revive this bike.
You will then need to get some pricing estimates on what it is going to cost you for every additional step "deeper" that you go.
Given the fact that you weren't even able to turn the engine over without some preliminary coaxing with lots of penetrating oil, etc... I am thinking that those pistons/rings/cylinders may need some cleanup (rings will most likely need replaced).

I also understand your question to mean: "IF I take another step deeper... what is it gonna cost me?"
If it were me (as evidenced by the approach you saw me take on my build) I would feel that pulling the head and the jugs would be a must to see just how corroded things may be in there. If you did this and then decided, 'OK, I had a look and I choose not to do any cylinder honing or any machining that will cost money... you would be looking at a new gasket set for re-installing the jugs and head (this will also include a gasket for the valve cover that you have already removed.) I think I paid about $50 US or so for the gasket set.

Now, Please... someone who actually knows what they are talking about... chime in and give Jim some advice!

Tim in Ohio · « **Reply #35 on:** November 17, 2008, 10:20:55 AM »

Jim,
Check out this post: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=43270.0;topicseen
The guy was wanting to just replace a head gasket (even hoping to avoid pulling the engine to do it...) Check out LittleItaly's advice... I think it sounds pretty good.

Tim

Jim · « **Reply #36 on:** November 17, 2008, 12:10:35 PM »

Perhaps i only needed to "hear it". Sometimes when working alone one gets to second guessing; thanks guys.

I'll pull off the top end, work toward replacing the rings and detail where required. I would hope not to have to replace pistons but between the "little Italy" advice and Tim's resto i believe some work on the valves is likely.

I'm concerned now for the stupid questions this may lead me to ask. For example (from Italy's post):

1)Replace Piston Rings (5 piece not 3) - Is this a special kit? is it special order or stock waht is necessary?
2)Check Timing Chain Guide for excessive wear (just visual - correct?)
3)Check Valve Seats - Machine shop do this reseating or clean normally?
4)Re lap Valves - What's that?

I will mark the position of the cam and etc and begin the decent tonight. I'll post some pics of progress later to get some feedback and recommendations regarding detailing.

thanks again...
J

Jim · « **Reply #37 on:** November 17, 2008, 05:59:25 PM »

Guys;
I wish i had known this may only take 1/2 an hour, I'd have begun without hesitation sooner. The head end came off very easily, the cylinder block with a bit more work, but still very little persuasion and all in less than 1/2 hr....

Talk about the 'condition of these parts. I'm looking at the top of the pistons and the base of the valves. Is this normal? Is there a good way to improve without expensive replacement?

And what about this "product" It looks like gasket seal or something . Do you think this is "factory"? i think think this engine had some PO work looking at this mess..you think?

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq17/donovjim/1972%20350F%20four/350906.jpg[/IMG]

Now I'm left with trying to understand some of the very technical issues of measurement and of determining the extent of normal wear.
I've reviewed some previous posts. I know i need a full set of gaskets and obviously a set of rings. Am i correct in understanding a machine shop will measure the bores and check them. What am i asking them to do? hone the bores, measure and compare against recommended tolerance?
Also.., what about the vales? Should i just take the head in and what do i want done? reseating? or just clean or nothing?
One more very stupid question. The pistons... I'd rather not replace them. Am i to be very concern for the carbon and flaking the the top of them?

bring it on!
j

Tim in Ohio · « **Reply #38 on:** November 17, 2008, 06:48:27 PM »

Jim,
Good job on that disassembly. Pretty easy, huh?
Carbon is normal on those pistons. I couldn't tell from the pics if there was a little rust too? If you are taking your head, cylinders and pistons in to a machine shop, they will come back clean (at least mine did.) You will want to mark the pistons on inside so that you can get them back into the correct cylinder (1,2,3 & 4). Yes, the machine shop will measure your parts against the wear limits. I would expect to have to provide them with the wear limits as they likely don't see a 1973 CB350F too often.
I would ask the machine shop for some prices first so you can pick what you want them to do and what you will try to tackle yourself.
"How much would you charge me to measure the pistons, cylinder bores, etc... against the wear tolerances?" "How much to reseat/lap the valves?" "How much to hone the cylinders?"
Those measurements that they do will determine if you can get away with re-using the pistons or if they are beyond wear limits you may be looking at an overbore and a new set of larger pistons... etc.
Tim

mattcb350f · « **Reply #39 on:** November 17, 2008, 06:50:53 PM »

I type too slow.

I was gonna say that I think Tim is in a postion to best answer you questions Jim since he just finished doing vitually the same thing you're about to do.

But to answer some of your questions.......Those wierd holes in the head are casting marks, and good on Tim for finding them in my pic

where have I been

The piston rings came from Honda for mine as Three piece units (one piece oil ring) so no need to worry about that.

That crap on the cylinder liner is hard as nails....so just ignore it

, I think it's a bit of left over glue which they used to hold in the liners or something.

Replace all the gaskets with new.....ALL OF THEM. That cam cover gasket will leak for sure if you use it. When rubber gets old, especially one that has seen oil they tend to shink and get very hard, which makes them poor at sealing.

I used my old pistons on a motor with similar mileage. If they're within spec, and you don't need to bore the cylinder larger than I'd say they're ok to use.

The valves are probably fine, but should be re-ground or at least, lapped in place....after cleaning of course.

I'll try to pay more attention to this thread

, My mind got a little sidetracked after the foot of snow I got on Saturday, and the 6 more inches on Monday morning.

Matt.

Tim in Ohio · « **Reply #40 on:** November 17, 2008, 06:53:38 PM »

Jim,
Regarding valves in general and lapping specifically... check out this link.

http://www.dansmc.com/valve.htm

It is something that you could do yourself if you wanted to.

scunny · « **Reply #41 on:** November 17, 2008, 07:09:27 PM »

you have learnt Tim.
I'll try and help when possible but it's fishing nirvana at the mo

Tim in Ohio · « **Reply #42 on:** November 17, 2008, 07:15:00 PM »

Scunny! It's been a while. Good to hear from you. Jealous of the fishing... it is mighty cold here. How's the back?
Jim: Scunny is a good one to have on board for your build.

scunny · « **Reply #43 on:** November 17, 2008, 07:27:40 PM »

the body is getting there Tim. hopefully I'll be able to finish my bike shortly. (sorry for the thread steal Jim)

Jim · « **Reply #44 on:** November 18, 2008, 08:07:33 AM »

Great thanks guys...I'll take these to machine shop tomorrow.
Tim or Matt...
I had assumed there was no need to remove the pistons however if is as simple an operation i will do so. I'll look at that tonight.
When materials are returned i will post some pics.

While these components are off is there a cleaning agent that best gets into that baked on (external) dirt?

J

Tim in Ohio · « **Reply #45 on:** November 18, 2008, 08:13:49 AM »

Jim,
Unless you plan on measuring the pistons to check against wear limit, you will need to take them to the machine shop. Removing them is simple, but there are some pitfalls. There is a circlip that holds each piston pin in place. When you go to remove them, they may try to jump into your motor (block off the holes with rags) or they may try to escape into your shop to a place you may never find them. Do some searches on the forum regarding removing pistons... there are techniques (hint: Using a fat screwdriver positioned inside the perimeter of the circlip) to prevent mishaps.
I think the shop just cleans that stuff off by immersing in a big tank of carb cleaner.

Jim · « **Reply #46 on:** November 18, 2008, 08:31:11 AM »

T,
Great... OK, I'll look at those threads. I dont see why I'd bother removing them but it it is as easy as the previous its likey worh the effort.

I could if i had to, can clean them in place.
J

Tim in Ohio · « **Reply #47 on:** November 18, 2008, 10:07:06 AM »

Jim,

You remove them because you are doing more than just cleaning them. You (or the machine shop) will be measuring them to make sure they are still within spec re: wear limits.

Someone else confirm this, but I believe one of the measurements will be the "piston-to-cylinder wall clearance." Here is where my knowledge falls off... but the other guys will know: They either make that measurement with the piston actually stuffed into the cylinder...
In which case, they will obviously require the piston AND the cylinder... or the clearance will be deduced by measuring the piston diameter and then subtracting that measurement from the cylinder bore diameter. In either case, you will either be providing them with the pistons, or the measurements.
Also, if you want the machine shop to install the new rings for you... they will need the pistons.
If you are comfortable with doing the measuring and the math yourself, I suppose they could be left attached?

scunny · « **Reply #48 on:** November 18, 2008, 10:19:48 AM »

as Tim said it's easier to remove them to clean and measure, if like me you dont have the correct measuring tools I just get a machine shop to measure and hone the bores

Jim · « **Reply #49 on:** November 18, 2008, 12:16:13 PM »

It's clear.
I'll remove them and get them measured. Its a matter of understanding where the measure is being taken and now i understand that it is the inside circumference of the ring that is critical assuring final fit with the cylinder wall when the o.d. of the ring is applied.

I'll contact upon return form the machine shop
as always ... thanks. I'm trying to understand as i go so i appreciate your patience with me.
j

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Author Topic: 1972 350 four, Resto attempt from ground zero (Read 24073 times)