Topic: Welding Noob questions

[Tim in Ohio]

I am interested in some input from you guys who do fabrication/welding for their bikes.  I want to add this skill to my repertoire.  I am thinking that mig welding (GMAW) is the most appropriate type for a home hobbyist?  What are some recommendations on what I should look for in a welder?  How much should I expect to pay (good deal) on eBay or Craigslist?

[Spikeybike]

make sure it runs on 115 (unless you have 220v in your garage, then you can get a big one),
around 20 or 30 amps (don't want to be poppin breakers ya know)
you always get what you pay for 
welders break (no mater what brand) and they have consumable parts, make sure you can find them (tips,nozzles,insulators,wire)
defiantly check ebay and CL a good one is not cheap (well, new anyway) 

miller , hobart, lincoln electric, esab .some of the major names..  search away


http://www.millerwelds.com/products/mig/millermatic_140/

[my78k]

Giving this one a bump as I too am looking to try out welding. While Spikey's opinion is ALWAYS valued I was just wondering if anyone else cared to add anything. Also, I know this limits my target audience to Canadians but wondering of anyone has had experience with Mastercraft products (Canadian Tire)?

Thanks in advance,
Dennis

[ElCheapo]

Because you are admittedly a "Noob" to welding I would highly advise that you get an auto darkening helmet. Get the best that your money will buy at the time. This will be your most used tool and will protect eyes which are not exactly replaceable ~ at least until we can sell body parts on Ebay. The cheaper auto dark helmets work fine, but the pricer ones work so much nicer.

1. You are going to want a gas shielded welder. I say this as they are more affordable than Heli-arch, however Heli-arch kicks just about anythings but in weld quality and ease of use.

2. You are going to want a 220 welder. This is because the 110 welders tend to put out cold welds when welding anything over 1/16". 220 means that you will need to have a 50 amp 220 circuit set up in your work place by someone who actually knows what the heck they are doing. I say 50 amp because as you run these 220 welder out of their duty cycle they tend to pull more amps. You don't want the welder dying mid weld. When pricing a welder know its "duty cycle" and know how long your longest weld will be. You want to stay within the duty cycle at all times. Newer 220 welders don't really have a duty cycle as all of the components are beefed up.

3. You can use a 220 stick welder, but this will require planning on your part when you start the weld so you can complete it. And the technique is much different than wire welding as you will be pushing the rod back at the puddle unlike wire where the puddle chases the electrode. Also rods are best kept in a toaster oven just prior to use. If there is the smallest amount of moisture in the flux the weld will spit and spatter.

4. Get a book on welding as I could go on for pages on what rods or wire to use for what and what precautions to take. This is something that you will have to learn through a reliable text source. There are several small welders handbooks out there that are about 15-20 years out of print in second hand book stores, however the material is still relevant. These will show you all of the types of welds from fillet to butt.

5. Your first weld project should be a welding table. Make the top at least 5/16 thick. This bugger will be heavy so you will want to put it on wheels, preferably pneumatic dolly wheels that will help keep the swearing to a minimum when moving it mid project. Make sure at least 2 of the casters are lockable because the first time it walks away when you are welding you will use up all of your swear words in a few seconds.

Hope this blather helps...... Feel free to message me if you have other questions.

And by all means people if I was wrong in this post somewhere please do point it out as I hate it when disinformation floats around the web, especially when it is expensive disinformation.
 

[Spikeybike]

I would highly advise that you get an auto darkening helmet. Get the best that your money will buy at the time. This will be your most used tool and will protect eyes which are not exactly replaceable ~ at least until we can sell body parts on Ebay. The cheaper auto dark helmets work fine, but the pricer ones work so much nicer.

absolutely right, once you get a good one you will never go back

2. You are going to want a 220 welder. This is because the 110 welders tend to put out cold welds when welding anything over 1/16". 220 means that you will need to have a 50 amp 220 circuit set up in your work place by someone who actually knows what the heck they are doing. I say 50 amp because as you run these 220 welder out of their duty cycle they tend to pull more amps. You don't want the welder dying mid weld. When pricing a welder know its "duty cycle" and know how long your longest weld will be. You want to stay within the duty cycle at all times. Newer 220 welders don't really have a duty cycle as all of the components are beefed up.

i disagree.   110 welders work great ,way past 1/16"  ...my millermatic130 gets full penetration on 1/4" plate(beveled of coarse)   i would guess that "noobs" are wanting to weld there bikes,  there isn't a single piece of metal on "any" bike thicker than that

for sure read books about it, but better then that would be to just practice ,  and remember the hardest part of welding is setting up the welder, not actually welding     

and do your self a favor    ...don't learn to weld with flux-core,  learn that after you can do it with gas

[ElCheapo]

i disagree.   110 welders work great ,way past 1/16"  ...my millermatic130 gets full penetration on 1/4" plate(beveled of coarse)   i would guess that "noobs" are wanting to weld there bikes,  there isn't a single piece of metal on "any" bike thicker than that

for sure read books about it, but better then that would be to just practice ,  and remember the hardest part of welding is setting up the welder, not actually welding     

and do your self a favor    ...don't learn to weld with flux-core,  learn that after you can do it with gas

Millermatic? That'll each me to buy garbage like Lincoln.

I suppose you do get what you pay for..............? I guess my HomeDepot Lincoln 110 wire does 1/8 or better, but it is not pretty. Wish it was at least gas shielded. The welds I did on my lawntractor plow are still holding even after a beating.

[Bodain]

I went and purchased one of those $100.00 / 110Volt mig welders found at Harbor Frieght and the likes. Started using it on light stuff. My thoughts were pretty much this thing is useless, except maybe for tin foil. ( Keep in mind I have little or no welding experience).

Then I took the unit to a guy who knows how to weld. He promptly demonstrated this thing to be a very excellent home hobbiest welder. It will indeed weld up to 1/4 in. with the prettiest sold weld you will find. So I get a few lessons.

I don't fool myself into thinking I'm a welder. I'm not. Nor do I think this $100.00 / 110 Volt unit is adequate for welding frames and the like, however this cheap welder has opened new doors and possibilities for me that I never had before. It works marvelously and does exactly what I need it to do. You can't go wrong for the price. If you have no welding skills find someone who does to give some tips.

My welds still aren't pretty, but they are solid, for the types of mods I do with light metals, it's perfect.

[KingCustomCycles.com]

I have a Lincoln 110 Weld Pac 3200 wire welder with argon/co mix in the bottle.  I weld Honda frames with this and do tab attachment and exhaust mods.  I could not be happier with the set-up.  I have done countless hours of welding on 6 frames and have yet to break or wear out anything on the machine.  I can now weld with this set-up creating welds like I can imagine in my mind.  Always before the imagined weld was far superior to the actual weld.  That is not the case anymore.  No smoke, no slag, and no popping.  I also got an 89.00 auto darkening helmet that is better than sex.  I guess I have around $700 in the whole business including spare wire, gas bottle and such.  I LOVE IT!

[scartail]

Thumbs up on the auto-darkening helmet... I got mind from Harbor Freight for 50$. I think it is pretty good. Then again, I have had no experience with any other.

Regarding the welder, I have a Lincoln weldpak 100. It runs off of 110v, and supposedly does well for up to 1/4" using fluxcore. Since, I only tool around, and really don't do anything major, just exhuast work, frame bracing, sheet metal stuff, etc... It has been pretty good. I also have the MIG conversion for it, which I don't use much. I find that the fluxcore wire is most practical for my use. The only problem I have found with the fluxcore is the need to remove the slag completely when needing water/oil/air tight welds. I'm still learning.

I got it used for 200$, which came with a cart, the mig conversion kit, and a few tidbits. I think I got a really good deal on it.

[Zig]

c10 with hard wire.
c25 with fluxcore.
220 volt ( better to have it and not need it than vice versa). Good machines detect voltage and will run on what you feed it but 220 is best. will burn .025 and .030 wire.
good machine is about 600 can, make sure has a gas kit. flw meter, fittings etc.
auto sheild? yes, but adjustable shades,9 thru 11. no control knobs on outside of sheild, they get busted.
keep your whip straight, bends cause wire to bind in liner and also restrict gas flow.
parts to be welded need to be clean!
careful about fans and open doors. will blow away your gas sheild.
tack your parts well before you weld it and remember your tacks will misalign (tacks contract as they cool) your work, plan for it.
on small work use a file to clean up, not a grinder.

[XN]

My wife got me a Clarke 110v mig last year for my birthday. While not my first choice in a welder, I decided to not hurt her feelings and keep it. I must say the more welding I do the better I get. And over all its not a bad little machine at all. If your going to teach yourself I found using shielding gas was much easier and gave me a better weld over flux core. + its just so much cleaner. My first project was frenching in my license plate on my VTX...

[fuzzybutt]

i have a lincoln sp 140t, great welder, all I, as a home hobbyist will ever need. welds either gas sheilded or with a simple, tool free polarity change, flux core.

[my78k]

Guys, as always I can't thank you enough! I am far from being ready to take the plunge and will likely have a ton more questions! I am pretty sure I will bite the bullet and buy one but I need to to do a little more thinking first....I don't want to outgrow it too quickly after all (kinda like starting out on a Ninja 250 when we all think we need a Busa to get where we need to go  )

I am thinking the Lincoln 140 is the likely culprit. They are currently around 6 bills at Canadian tire but I suspect I can grab it when it goes on sale...

As for college course I did some digging today and the loacal wants almost 600 just to signup plus the text book!!!! I picked up a clymer manulal for 25 and have book marked a few sites that are free 

Keep the info coming please....not sure if this has been brought up to the mods but is there any interest in a welding specific forum on here???

Dennis

[cb350f-mark]

Dennis, I'm also thinking of trying my hand at welding.  I was surfing for some introductory welding education near Toronto and found a 6 hour Saturday MIG course at Centennial for $185.

Mark.

[my78k]

Thanks Mark! I was looking at Durham and they had that one that was 600 but it was s much longer course and went into other types of welding as well but for now I think the Mig will be enough for me. I have no plans to weld frames or anything but I do have some ideas for some mods to my tent trailer (luggage or wood rack) and my dad's utility trailer could also use some sections replaced.

Dennis

[Jim F]

All of my stuff is Miller
I have a syncrowave 250
an Inteletig system with a Maxstar 150 power supply
and of course  my Laser system
check it out

www.jmfmicroweld.com

[Spikeybike]

wooooow .       


i






want






a





laser



man those are some seriously tiny welds,  my hat is off to you,   
 ...and here i thought tig was cool ..

[XN]

I wish I could show you guys the laser welding we do at my work, but its classified... None the less its pretty bad A$$ Some of our weld beads are around 1/16 wide. 

[1timduke]

     Few things to make sure, if no one has mentioned it yet...Safety First!!!   Make sure you weld away from flammables in your garage or wherever, gasoline fumes accumulate near the floor and you might not smell 'em.   Shop rags, cans of brake and carb cleaner, all that stuff will go up when you don't need it to.   Welding fumes can also be hazardous (less so with MIG or TIG process) so a small fan may be necessary.   Careful though, too much wind can blow away your shielding gas.   
     When you get your machine and start practicing, it probably wouldn't hurt to practice on something slightly thicker than bike frame, maybe 3/16" or so.   Learning how to weld on really thin stuff can be frustrating.   
     And lastly, don't let anyone watch you weld without a hood!   I know a guy who's son watched him weld for several minutes unnoticed in his garage before he (the kid) said something.   Poor kid had the most horrible flash burn a few hours later    If it ever happens to you or anyone near you, there's not too much that can be done.   It feels like sand in your eyes that you can't get out, only much worse, lasts for hours.   
     There's plenty of great resources and classes out there, and I'm sure you'll get the hang of it after some practice.   Keep us posted.   Good Luck!   -Tim

[Spikeybike]

yes yes yes oooh yes flash burn .....  not fun 

[fuzzybutt]

i learned to weld by going out and getting a cheap little 99 dollar flux welder. i have access to scrap steel and i just welded and welded and welded until i could get a good looking weld every time. i'm still learning to weld really thin stuff but i'm getting there. i just fabbed and welded up filler panels for a friends tailgate and door handles on his mini truck.

[fishman_Phil]

I have had a mig welder sitting in the garage for a couple of years now not being used but wanting to use it. Arc and oxy/acet was no problem to me, but could not get the Mig right so walked away. Yet, I was told by many that once you start using mig you will not want to go back to arc and gas.
My son was visiting the other day and he is a TIG and MIG welder and got him to give me some tips before he left for home. I had been trying to use the mig with flux/core with no great success and had gone and purchased some more wire and a gas bottle.
He instantly took off the flux/core wire and put on my other reel, hooked up the gas, tweaked the speed and current and was running these nice runs of weld on 1/16 plate. Straight away I saw my problem. I was drawing away from the weld with the hand piece like I would with an arc welder.
I tryed as he did, pushing from the weld, and bingo. Sweet as. Now to get some more practice on other stuff. He did explain though that for vertical down I would be drawing away. Cheers ...

[ghost]

practice is the best way to learn. an old weldes told me when i first started welding that it takes about a mile befor you start getting good, that was about ten years ago. in addition to a good autodim helmet, get a good welding jacket(mine is a tillman onyx comfortable, black, and it works nicely as a riding jacket) and don't weld in shorts and sneakers(ask me why)

[bradj]

I am a union boilermaker I stick weld for hours a day there is no reason to use a stick on a bike frame it WAY to much heat even if you use 3/32 rod you will still warp everything to #$%* a 110 gas mig is all you need go to a welding supply store and ask the sales person what they recomend and get a good helmet it sucks to get flashed and hurts for days
and dont go get a welder and start welding on your frame get some scrap steel and play around the heat and wire speed till your comfortable with the results have fun bradj   

[Tim in Ohio]

I did end up getting a Lincoln 110v mig welder.  Funny thing about my local welding shop advice... THEY said that for welding frames, a 220 tig machine is a must.  Spikey said they were full of [dung]...  I trust Spikey's opinion. 

[mystic_1]

The wall thickness on these frames is, what, 1/16"?  No problem at all for a 110v welder in the right hands.

mystic_1

[Spikeybike]

now run some beads and post some pics, and i (we) can give you some pointers   

[Tim in Ohio]

OK...  I still haven't tried my hand with the mig yet, I need to get a tank of shielding gas first.  But I did get up the courage to fire up the oxy-acetylene torch that my dear old Grandpa used to use.  I have a couple of questions on that.  I was using it to heat up some lug nuts that are stuck on my old Ford truck.  This oxy-acet rig has literally not been touched for at least 15 years since he died.  Here are a couple pics:

Acetylene gauges:

Oxygen gauges:

Torch:


I read a recent post about an air compressor tank that blew up, and since these gas tanks have the surface rust on them, I had a slight fear that when I opened the valves the whole thing would explode and castrate me instantly.  (Strangely the thought of death didn't enter my mind... just getting my balls blown off...)

Well, I went ahead and fired it up.  I did get a flame going, which was exciting.  (I had my auto-darkening welding helmet on).  I had the gauges set at 7 for the Acetylene and 40 for the oxygen.  Everything worked fine.  After I extinguished the flame, I looked at the gauges and the working pressure gauge for the Acetylene seemed to have climbed way up to 25.  I fiddled with the adjuster on the valve to try to get it back down... nothing.  Then I messed with the oxygen valve some and the acetylene gauge dropped back down to 7.  What is the explanation ?  Spikey?

[Spikeybike]

Well, I went ahead and fired it up.  I did get a flame going, which was exciting.  (I had my auto-darkening welding helmet on).  I had the gauges set at 7 for the Acetylene and 40 for the oxygen.  Everything worked fine.  After I extinguished the flame, I looked at the gauges and the working pressure gauge for the Acetylene seemed to have climbed way up to 25.  I fiddled with the adjuster on the valve to try to get it back down... nothing.  Then I messed with the oxygen valve some and the acetylene gauge dropped back down to 7.  What is the explanation ?  Spikey?

first of all you should have the gas set closer to  4 or 5 , the oxy's good at 40 .. but i doubt thats what causing the pressure fluctuation,  ,    it could be as simple as pressure build up in the hoses, then you stop using them and it slowly goes down. ... or it could be faulty gauges, (i've seen ones in much worse shape work just fine though).   or a slow leak in the hoses

i would absolutely check those hoses for leaks , if there that old and unused,  just open the valves all the way and run the lines through a pail of water and watch for bubbles ..

also MAKE SURE you clear the hoses of any gas after each use (close the valves and pull the trigger till the gas stops)

i'll talk to my boss in the morning and see what he thinks , i've never had that happen before

[mark]

.............  Everything worked fine.  After I extinguished the flame, I looked at the gauges and the working pressure gauge for the Acetylene seemed to have climbed way up to 25.........What is the explanation ?

It's called 'creeping' and it isn't good. Note that the low pressure acet. gage has a 'red line' above 15psi... That's because acetylene does nasty things(explodes) at pressures above 15psi.


quote from http://www.deir.qld.gov.au/workplace/subjects/rural/plant/operate/welding/index.htm

"# Regulators can fail in two ways - by the controlled forward flow of gas which is known as regulator creep or by the reverse flow of another gas in the gas lines. Regular maintenance should avoid these situations.
# Either of these failures can be recognised by a higher than expected reading on the operational or low pressure gauge. The gauge needle creeps beyond the pressure set for actual welding or cutting.
# Excess pressure or the presence of a different gas in a regulator can cause fire and explosion in varying degrees of severity, resulting in damaged equipment and operator injury.
# Operators should never use equipment fitted with a regulator in which a creep condition is known to exist. "

Some can be repaired, but it might cost more than simply replacing the faulty regulator.

[Spikeybike]

yeah and i for got to add the regulators are most likely the culprit,   i think even if thats not what's happening, (witch it most likely is)  you should replace the the regulators anyway.  or at the very least gut them and replace all the seals (not that hard)