Topic: Dyna S ignition problem

[Wayne Meuir]

It would be interesting to see if the CBX plate and rotor works on a Suzuki GT750, but I doubt that it will.  If it does not, and you are going to have to make the backing plate and buy the Suzuki rotor spearately anyway, the CBX set up at $269 is more that you will spend buying two kits for a Suzuki GS four banger, and you will end up with one spare pick up (nice to have in case of a failure) if you buy the two GS kits.

The reason I put the Dyna S on my Waterbuffalo was that Suzuki gets $50 for one set of points and condensor, and you need three of them, for a total of $150.  All of the aftermarket points for a GT750 are JUNK.  I bought 7 sets from three different manufacturers trying to find three good sets, and finally gave up, chunked all the brand new unused junk points and installed the Dyna S.  I set the air gap at .040".  The way I did that was measuring the rotor with a dial caliper, then wraping masking tape around the rotor until it was .080" larger, then mounting the rotor so that it touched the tape.  Remove the tape, and Bob's your Uncle.  I set all three pickups to fire at the proper position by using a dial indicator, and if I remember correctly, they were set to fire at .134" BTDC. It took me 8 hours to get all three of the set correctly.  I made the backing plate out of an old stock points plate.  Getting the holes drilled and tapped in the right place was a chore.  I now have a small mill and rotary table and it would be a lot easier now. So far, in a year and about 4000 miles, they have worked like a charm.

Hondaman, great explanation of the electrical attitude of the Dyna S.  I was not aware of any of the firing changes realted to engine RPM's or age (wear) of the unit.  I did not know there was anything in the DYNA S that would "wear".  I'll keep that in mind if I start having problems.   Bad thing about your system on a Waterbuffalo is: you still have to have good points and condensors, and they are gonna cost $150, albeit not very often.  It would still be a viable option.

Wayne

[HondaMan]

What's a HondaMan system worth?

I don't know what they're worth, but I sell them starting at $68. 

Regarding the Dyna stuff: I've installed many, and once properly installed, they DO last a long time. And, I'm in no way against their stuff: heck, I use 3-ohm coils myself.

It's just that so many people with failed Dyna 'S' systems this year have written me, asking me to help diagnose the problems or figure out WHY it died, or won't run, or such, that I'm getting another look at them, 20 years later. And, when mine failed, leaving me on the side of the road, I just knew that I could come up with something that has a built-in backup plan, so I did.

If it sometimes sounds like I don't like Dyna, it's because their management has let some of their telephone support people tell their customers to do things that are not a good idea. I remember seeing those instructions that said to use a "coil with at LEAST 3 ohms resistance", and I also remember seeing ones that said to use a "coil with MORE than 3 ohms resistance" (caps mine) before that. The change came during the 1980s, sometimes between when I stopped professionally wrenching (around 1977) and started again from my garage in the mid 1980s. At that time, I was considering buying one of my own, because I was installing them for friends (again), so I called to talk to an engineer (at Dyna) about it, engineer-to-engineer, so to speak. The first one I talked with just repeated the specs, so I called later and got an older guy who had been there a long time. I specifically wanted to aska bout the "mean green" coils (3 ohms) and a Dyna 'S', or should I use the more expensive Dyna III. He told me that the 'S' was rated at 4 amps at 250 degrees, so he didn't think it was a good idea to use it with the 3 ohm coils. The Dyna III was rated for 6 amps, and stretched the OFF pulse a little for a longer spark, I learned, too. I knew about the swirl-burn relationship in these engines, so I went Dyna III.

So, you'll see in other places where I advise against the combination: it's because they are running at max all the time (S plus 3 ohms), so they must be set just right to last. And, if you take the time and tools to set them up just right, I'm sure they will last a long time. I'm just as sure that some riders aren't experienced enough with tools to do this (or haven't heard the news about it), and they are the ones who sometimes suffer. If we say it here enough, maybe they can stumble across it and learn, too?

[KRONUS0100]

Hondaman..thanks for the explanation, very informative.  I think I will set mine back up the way I had it originally (Same way ACE set his up). Bike ran well this way.  I really don't feel like widening the slots, but I will see what I can do about the gap between rotor and triggers.  Thanks all.

[GammaFlat]

For what it's worth, I've got a Dyna-S on one of my bikes (K6) which has worked well for me but I'm going back to the points plate (and HondaMan ignition).   

Another of my bikes (K7) runs great with the HondaMan ignition.  After my experience, I'm putting them (HM ignitions) on all my bikes. 

Either solution is very good (Dyna-S or HM ignition) but I have to say I prefer the HondaMan solution.  Here's my list of reasons that fall in favor of the HM Ignition that I think are pretty indisputable (in direct comparison to the Dyna-S): 
 

• lower cost (68 vs. 125-ish)
• easily go back to points on roadside in the event of a failure
• better warranty (6 months vs years (forgot how many but at least 2 years and I'm thinkin' 5 years)

Here's what I'd consider secondary considerations that folks may wish to argue about:

• Higher RPMs possible with HM Ignition (not too important for me)
• slightly lower electrical load with the HM Ignition (I believe because "closed time" is shorter) (this is important to me for keeping my battery up)
• I don't mind supporting a guy that has done so much for the forum (although I can't see how he could be making very much)  I know my bikes are in better overall working order because of his contributions and help

The bottom line is that if you have points, either of these solutions will make you smile about how your bike runs after installation.  The list of reasons to use either of these solutions compared to "just points" is a whole 'nuther kettle 'o fish.  For me, upgrading the ignition is a no-brainer. 

John

[Ace]

I've just gone back to points.  The power of the bike is slightly different.  It's a bit slower bottom/mid range power.  When you get up the revs 7000 plus it works better than the dyna I think.

With the HM ignition, how often do you have to adjust the points?

[GammaFlat]

Adjust your points pretty much once.

From what I understand, you have to wear out rubbing blocks (many thousands of miles) to make the points need any attention.  If they are brand new, it's good to clean the contact surfaces because they are under such low load (using the HM Ignition) they can't burn off the protective "gunk" put on at the factory.   I think HondaMan recommends using a business card with brake cleaner.  Just pull it through the closed points a couple times. 

If the points are in "used" condition, you might want to "dress them up" a final time - clean with a steel nail file.  I found that points in really horrible condition worked fine with the HM Ignition but I subsequently cleaned them anyway (the bike livened up.. idled better, better cold start, seemed like snappier throttle response). 

Here's my third one (going on my K8, quarter is in pic for perspective):

[HondaMan]

Well said, John!
It feels weird to see them in someone else's pictures.   

[kghost]

Well said, John!
It feels weird to see them in someone else's pictures.   

I've got to remember to snap you some pic's of my install....

[Terry in Australia]

Well my "Hondaman" "Test" ignition amplifier is still working perfectly in my K0 after 500 miles, it was dead easy to install, the bike starts easy, runs smoothly, and revs to redline, no problem. It doesn't throw a big fat blue spark like my Dyna S and 3 ohm Dyna coils on my 836cc race engine, but works well in the otherwise stock K0 engine, no problem.

I've still got two new Hondaman ignitions in a box, and I'll probably only use one Adam, so if you'd like the other one let me know, the postage within Australia will be a little less painful. At my suggestion, Mark (Hondaman) installed a "points only/off/points and amplifier" switch on the two I bought, so if his amplifier does crap out you just need to flick the switch back to points only, and in the "off" position, your engine is immobilized.

I agree with Offy too, Dyna ignitions have a well documented history of long life and excellent service, in the most demanding situations, or they wouldn't still be in business today. (they are still used in just about every "Post Classic" race bike in Australia) I think Jeff Saunders has hit the nail on the head, pointing his finger at 30+ year old Honda OEM electrics and bad connections on less than perfect condition wiring. Considering this, it's not hard to understand why there are a lot more people experiencing problems with Dyna's now, than they did 30 years ago when their bikes were in much better condition electrically.

The are both great systems in my opinion, but Mark's is cheaper, so it gets my vote, ha ha! Hey Mark, how's the MK3 version with the inbuilt timing light coming along?  

[Ace]

Since the Aussie dollar went South, buying parts from the US has ground to a halt.  There goes putting together another engine for now.

Emailed Dyantek, they said send it back and they will see if they can help me out.  I won't get a replacement for free because when i first ran the bike, I melted some of the plastic on the wires on the muffler.  Some how I think that will be my downfall.  I sealed the wires and haven't had a problem...until now.  I reckon if I did do some damage back then, it shouldn't have taken 9 months to come about.

Sounds like a good offer Terry.  I'll PM you about it.

I was looking at the Boyer system.  Read some good reports.  Price is expensive, I'd rather go for a HM system, cost less and help keep the man in business.

[HondaMan]

The are both great systems in my opinion, but Mark's is cheaper, so it gets my vote, ha ha! Hey Mark, how's the MK3 version with the inbuilt timing light coming along?  

That's my winter project this year. It's been delayed recently by my wife losing her job, then breaking her leg, both of which have been vying for my extra time (have to work more overtime since she's not working, now playing butler, too). It'll get there, sooner than later now. I have the LEDs, just need to be happy with the installation "kit" and brightness. One thing is apparent; it works well at idle, like for checking the timing (the original intent), but fades quickly with RPM. I don't have a good "feel" yet for how MUCH RPM, only the tests in daylight will confirm that.

[Terry in Australia]

The are both great systems in my opinion, but Mark's is cheaper, so it gets my vote, ha ha! Hey Mark, how's the MK3 version with the inbuilt timing light coming along?  

That's my winter project this year. It's been delayed recently by my wife losing her job, then breaking her leg, both of which have been vying for my extra time (have to work more overtime since she's not working, now playing butler, too). It'll get there, sooner than later now. I have the LEDs, just need to be happy with the installation "kit" and brightness. One thing is apparent; it works well at idle, like for checking the timing (the original intent), but fades quickly with RPM. I don't have a good "feel" yet for how MUCH RPM, only the tests in daylight will confirm that.

Ha ha, well keep going at it Mark, and I'll order #1!

[HondaMan]

The are both great systems in my opinion, but Mark's is cheaper, so it gets my vote, ha ha! Hey Mark, how's the MK3 version with the inbuilt timing light coming along?  

That's my winter project this year. It's been delayed recently by my wife losing her job, then breaking her leg, both of which have been vying for my extra time (have to work more overtime since she's not working, now playing butler, too). It'll get there, sooner than later now. I have the LEDs, just need to be happy with the installation "kit" and brightness. One thing is apparent; it works well at idle, like for checking the timing (the original intent), but fades quickly with RPM. I don't have a good "feel" yet for how MUCH RPM, only the tests in daylight will confirm that.

Ha ha, well keep going at it Mark, and I'll order #1!

Well, I value your opinion, and your practiced "installation skills", as you helped me figure out a good way to build these to begin with...so, how about if I send you one of the prototypes to test (Gammaflat gets the other, but he won't know that until he reads this), so you guys can tell me the good & bad of it? 
It will be just around Christmas time, I estimate.

[Terry in Australia]

Well, I value your opinion, and your practiced "installation skills", as you helped me figure out a good way to build these to begin with...so, how about if I send you one of the prototypes to test (Gammaflat gets the other, but he won't know that until he reads this), so you guys can tell me the good & bad of it? 
It will be just around Christmas time, I estimate.

Woohoo! Christmas presents from Hondaman! Ha ha, no worries Mark, send it on over and I'll install it right away, I intend to ride the wheels off the K0 this summer (which officially begins next week) so you'll be getting some feedback sooner, rather than later!

Let me know what you need for shipping etc, I don't want you doing any extra overtime on my behalf. Cheers, Terry.

[GammaFlat]

Terry:  I'm not happy with you right now because you can ride (summer starting) and I cannot (Winter now).  Ok, ok, I'm happy for you and I may try to get more riding in (where's my fairing, where's my long johns?).  Is the Aus dollar weakening against the US dollar?   hmmm, maybe I need one of your marvelous oil filter adapters.       

HondaMan: Dang!  I get to test one that will have a timing light - wahoo!   

BTW... My brother (he's a Kaw junkie... but he is in fact my brother.. and I do have another brother who likes Hondas so it's not all bad ) is looking at old Kaws.  Do I have this right?  '79 Kaws and older are points while '80 forward are electronic ignition (from factory)?  Honda 750s are '78 and back being points...? 

[Terry in Australia]

Ha ha, well don't be too angry with me mate, the weather over the last week has been atrocious, as you're probably aware Australia has been in drought for the last 12 years, our reservoirs are down to less than 30 percent and the Victorian state government is building a massive desalination plant to convert sea water into drinking water, but untypically in the last week it's been cold and wet! Some areas around Victoria got 4 inches of rain over the weekend, something that we haven't seen all year!

Having said that, I did get a 50+ mile ride over to SteveK0's place yesterday but it was "cool" enough that I had to wear a jacket for warmth, rather than protection. I'm really hoping it warms up soon, normally this time of year I'm wearing shorts and drinking Bourbon on ice to cool me down, but at the moment I'm wearing warm clothes and relying on the alcohol to stop me from freezing, ha ha!

I'm pretty sure you're right about factory EI's in Kawa's and Honda's, certainly my other passion, GS Suzuki's went to factory EI's in 1980. I know that Honda had all sorts of problems with their early DOHC4 electronic ignitions, but interestingly enough, I've never heard of a GS Suzuki's ignition failing, they must have got it right first time. Cheers, Terry.

[Ace]

I installed the HondaMan ignition.  The bike worked well.  No more arcing at the points so less wear, and started/idled fine at 500rpm.

I chased up dynateck to see what was going on with my dyna S.  This is the reply I got:
The Dyna-S was tested in a variety of ways, including heating of the modules while in operation. We have been unable to identify any problem within the unit.
Therefore, we have two (2) options available for you. We can either return the unit to you, or, due to the age of the unit being over 1 year old, we can offer you a new replacement unit for the price of $69,00 and we will pay the return shipping fee.

Gee, no point sending me the old one back if it doesn't work.  I took the option of the new unit, hey they pay for postage so I'm happy with that...too a certain extent.

The HondaMan ignition doesn't give my bike the kick at 6000rpm that the dyna s gives.  Being a modified engine for street, the dyna s is more suitable to my current configuration (not a stock engine that's for sure).  I'll still be keeping the HondaMan ignition in case I need it.  I have no problems with it and would recommend it anyone running just points and/or wants a good reliable system.  No hard feelings or anything HondaMan.  I'll give the next dyna s a try and see how long it lasts.  If it gives up the ghost I'll be sticking to your system with no hesitation.

You provide a great product at a respectable price so keep them coming.

I guess in the end, I know how much my bike should perform as I've had it there before so I'm trying everything to get it back there apart from spending lots of $$$$.

[HondaMan]

I installed the HondaMan ignition.  The bike worked well.  No more arcing at the points so less wear, and started/idled fine at 500rpm.

The HondaMan ignition doesn't give my bike the kick at 6000rpm that the dyna s gives.  Being a modified engine for street, the dyna s is more suitable to my current configuration (not a stock engine that's for sure).  I'll still be keeping the HondaMan ignition in case I need it.  I have no problems with it and would recommend it anyone running just points and/or wants a good reliable system.  No hard feelings or anything HondaMan.  I'll give the next dyna s a try and see how long it lasts.  If it gives up the ghost I'll be sticking to your system with no hesitation.


I guess in the end, I know how much my bike should perform as I've had it there before so I'm trying everything to get it back there apart from spending lots of $$$$.

Now you have me curious  :  since that unit is Terry's Special with the Points-OFF-Electronics switch...did you try both positions of the switch? Reason I ask: I have many testimonies of power INCREASES at 6000 RPM and above when using this ignition, on everything from CB125 to Z901...I just wonder if the switch is in the 'Electronic' position? Or, maybe try the switch in the other position from where it is...

Also, be sure the condensors are good, or just remove them if the points are new. Reason: if the pivot(s) in the points are worn, the points open multiple times when they open, due to the geometry shifting slightly after the little hole is oval. They sort of 'slide' open then, and the condensor helps smooth that out into a single opening break. If it 'opens' multiple times at that speeds, it creates a short series of low voltage sparks instead of a single large spark.

BTW:
Those 'multispark' systems you hear about only give multiple sparks up to about 5000 RPM, unless it is a full-blown CDI, which these bikes cannot support (too much electrical current for a CDI Multispark, around 8-12 amps).

[Ace]

Tried the switch in both positions and the electronics position worked the best.  The power increase I'm referring to has more to do with the cam that I've got.  It is a good mid range cam that comes on about 4000rpm and takes off around 6000rpm out to about 8000rpm.  The kick is still there at 6000rpm but not like it was with the dyna.

Points and condensers were new.  I do have another dyna ignition on my K1.  I'm reluctant to put it on my F2 but I might do it and see if the kick is the same as with my previous dyna.  If it isn't, then I know something is up and yours works just as good.  I'll post back my results.

[HondaMan]

Tried the switch in both positions and the electronics position worked the best.  The power increase I'm referring to has more to do with the cam that I've got.  It is a good mid range cam that comes on about 4000rpm and takes off around 6000rpm out to about 8000rpm.  The kick is still there at 6000rpm but not like it was with the dyna.

Points and condensers were new.  I do have another dyna ignition on my K1.  I'm reluctant to put it on my F2 but I might do it and see if the kick is the same as with my previous dyna.  If it isn't, then I know something is up and yours works just as good.  I'll post back my results.

I don't know if Terry sent you the "tips and Tricks" sheet with it, but here's something you might be interested in trying, if you're building a hi-RPM engine: close the points down to about .008" to .010" gap. Naturally, you will have to rotate the baseplate to get the timing advance back. But, this change will increase dwell at high RPM and spark voltage with it, and it reduces points bounce on closure. The Transistorized Ignition actually tunes itself to the coil being used, so long as the ohms are in the range of 5.5 to 3.0, and this makes for more spark output through the whole range. That's my one claim to fame that no one else's does... 

[rlvitt]

Just my two cents worth, but I have had a Dyna in my K2 with their coils for literally decades and it's still working. It may be a different model but I'd have to move my #2 K0 out of the way to check.

I've been cutting and pasting all the input here just in case my "S" model starts screwing up. I'm putting it in my #1 K0. I'm going to get Hondaman's ignition for the #2 K0. It sounds bullet proof.

None the less, here's my question. How do you static time the Dyna "S" to get your initial start on the engine? I've just gone through teh top end on the K0 and I've installed the "S" as part of the rebuild of the bike. I've found no direct reference to statit timing it. I found one for Harley's saying you come off the black coil wire to ground with a continuity light. I'm wondering if it is the same for the CB750?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

[Markcb750]

 




 

[Ace]

Just my two cents worth, but I have had a Dyna in my K2 with their coils for literally decades and it's still working. It may be a different model but I'd have to move my #2 K0 out of the way to check.

I've been cutting and pasting all the input here just in case my "S" model starts screwing up. I'm putting it in my #1 K0. I'm going to get Hondaman's ignition for the #2 K0. It sounds bullet proof.

None the less, here's my question. How do you static time the Dyna "S" to get your initial start on the engine? I've just gone through teh top end on the K0 and I've installed the "S" as part of the rebuild of the bike. I've found no direct reference to statit timing it. I found one for Harley's saying you come off the black coil wire to ground with a continuity light. I'm wondering if it is the same for the CB750?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

Gee, old thread.  Read page one of this thread for how to static time.  Set the mechanical advance on F for #1/4 cylinder, get your 12v light or buzzer setup on the applicable wire for #1/4 and the other earthed (ground), rotate the Dyna S plate so that the light come on or buzzer goes off.  Turn over engine by hand 360 degrees and check when the light comes back on or buzzer goes off and that should match up at the F mark of #1/4. You can either do the same for #2/3 or start it up and use a timing light.

My first Dyna S lasted for many years, second one lasted 2 years and third not much longer than that.  I had them on 2 different CB750s, even used Dyna coils. I carried a spare Dyna S around. Back to TEC points and condensers with the HM ignition for a few years now with no issues. I wouldn't go back to Dyna S ignition system, that's just me.  People have an opinion and that's ok.

[74750k4]

I've used S type ignitions with Dyna's 3 ohm coils for roughly 3 years, until recently when 2-3 coil took a *rap.
At first I suspected the early Dyna S. Sent it to them, they returned it fine. In the meantime I had tested the coils, and 2-3 had a high resistance (189KOhm) short on the secondary (HT to gnd.). They replaced the coil at a discount. I have one of the newer S  systems with the smaller modules as well. Both these S sytems were on bikes I purchased. I also enjoy using the points plate. Just not the adjustments that come along with it. I think the addition of 1 ohm ballast resistors is probably a very good idea on 3 ohm coils. I like the idea of an ignition system you can switch over to good old points if need be.

[Terry in Australia]

I've never had a Dyna ignition S fail on me, but I've seen a genuine Honda points arm break in half on a long ride, so I don't know if I'd carry a spare points plate, ot a spare dyna S, if I was going to ride around Australia.

I like Mark (Hondaman's) ignition amplifier, the one I had on my K0 worked great. I had an ignition amplifier on a V8 Ford many years ago, it worked great too, and I like that I could switch between the amplified ignition and the standard points, the difference in spark performance was like night and day. Cheers, Terry.