Topic: How do you tighten up the steering (Left to right motion) VIDEO ADDED!!!

[MCRider]

Well, I did indeed get the triple to raise up a bit. But I've managed to only get the "adjuster" moved (clockwise) about a 1/4 of an inch. I figured with as loose as it is, it should have moved a lot more, quite possibly should have been Easier to move. I'll go tap on it some more but it doesn't seem like it wants to move any further.

As loose as "it" is? Are the bearings truly loose. That is, if you grab the fork down low (if its off the ground) and pull/push do you feel a click in the steering stem area?  The "looseness" of the side to side motion is not necessarily a bad thing.

If the bearings are proper, and the cable interference is minimal, the fork should move side to side unimpeded as yours does. You should not think of tightening the bearings as a "steering damper". They should be free to move.

Assuming the bearings are correct, if you get an oscillation when you take your hands off the bars you should look elsewhere like an old tire that is cupped, or old nasty fork oil.

If and only if, the bearings are free to move, the cables are routed properly, the forks are in good shape, then you might consider an add on steering damper. The damper is only to improve an otherwise perfect situation, not to mask a problem.

[MCRider]

Well it definitely isn't budging anymore. If I went counter-clockwise, it moved fairly easy, but going clockwise, it went up to a point and stopped. Which 'i think' would mean that it's tightened all the way, and again I only moved it 1/4". 

So does this mean the bearings are completely shot, since that little bit that was moved, didn't change things what-so-ever?

With the adjuster that tight, hold the bars and move them side to side (lock to lock). If you feel a crunchiness in the bearings, especially as they approach front center, then they are worn.

With the adjuster full tight, back it off to where you get free unimpeded movement again, and toighten your triple back down. Tap it down with the mallet, draw it down with the cap nut, then tighten the pinch bolts.

Again, a free unimpeded movement side to side is not a bad thing, in fact it is ideal.

[JAG]

Well That all sounds good to me MCRider1. My knowledge of motorcycles isn't very indepth, only stemming from a 76 750F SS and my 74 750K. So as far as what's too loose and what isn't, at that I am at a loss..

I digress. I went ahead and tightened everything back up put the handle bars back on and sat on the bike. The bearings do not make any cracking noise, but there is a drastic "improvement" on the lock to lock motion. I put improvement in quotations, because what I think is improved, may be to tight for the normal (experienced) motorcyclist.

I think Mystic said that, the bars should "gracefully come to a stop on either side". But now I have to push them (lightly) in either direction as to get them to go lock to lock, the steering doesn't fall by itself anymore, nor is it graceful. I didn't realize my 1/4" could be so drastic.

If, as what was seen in the video, is TOO loose, and what I have now is too tight, I couldn't imagine the steering being correct if I loosen back half the travel, to 1/8". So would the conclusion be to ride it and see if it is in fact an improvement, or do you believe, in your opinion, that now it may be too tight, and be slow death of my bearings??

[MCRider]

Well That all sounds good to me MCRider1. My knowledge of motorcycles isn't very indepth, only stemming from a 76 750F SS and my 74 750K. So as far as what's too loose and what isn't, at that I am at a loss..

I digress. I went ahead and tightened everything back up put the handle bars back on and sat on the bike. The bearings do not make any cracking noise, but there is a drastic "improvement" on the lock to lock motion. I put improvement in quotations, because what I think is improved, may be to tight for the normal (experienced) motorcyclist.

I think Mystic said that, the bars should "gracefully come to a stop on either side". But now I have to push them (lightly) in either direction as to get them to go lock to lock, the steering doesn't fall by itself anymore, nor is it graceful. I didn't realize my 1/4" could be so drastic.

If, as what was seen in the video, is TOO loose, and what I have now is too tight, I couldn't imagine the steering being correct if I loosen back half the travel, to 1/8". So would the conclusion be to ride it and see if it is in fact an improvement, or do you believe, in your opinion, that now it may be too tight, and be slow death of my bearings??

Yes i was following Mystics comments and we were on the same page. Yes as i mentioned assuming the bearings were too loose, 1/4 to 1/2 turn is a lot and can make a huge change. If it were a racer, I'd back it off a skosh. On the other hand, you could be right there, so I'd say...ride it and check it next week.

All bearings die a slow death, BTW.  Let's hope its a slow death, anyway.

[JAG]

Thank you guys so much for the input and help!!

[MCRider]

Thank you guys so much for the input and help!!

You're welcome!

[mystic_1]

No worries, buddy.

I think that backing off 1/8 inch would be the way to go.  Too tight is almost as bad as too loose.  Doesn't sound like you're drastically over-tight now, and as Ron says it may loosen back up after you put some miles on it.

Based on what I'm hearing I'm thinking that those bearings may be "dry" or at least insufficiently greased.  This would make them spin too easily, as there's no residual friction from the grease, and also wear out more quickly.  Again, once you're to the point where you gotta tear down to this point, just go ahead and put in tapered bearings, as the stock bearings are loose balls that are a real PITA to work with.

mystic_1

[JAG]

I sent some things off to have chromed, so it's going to be awhile til I get to ride again..

With that said, I am going to dismantle the front end and replace those bearings with ones from All Balls. I'll just do some searching around to find out how to do it from the forum. I also need new seals for the front forks, as well..

BTW. I went out on a "test" run, when I would take my hands away from the handlebars, and at cruising speed there was incredible wobbling going on back and forth, from the front end. Is that from me tightening it up? Or is that a combination of me tightening it up against a worn out/dry bearings?? Or something else entirely?

[MCRider]

I sent some things off to have chromed, so it's going to be awhile til I get to ride again..

With that said, I am going to dismantle the front end and replace those bearings with ones from All Balls. I'll just do some searching around to find out how to do it from the forum. I also need new seals for the front forks, as well..

BTW. I went out on a "test" run, when I would take my hands away from the handlebars, and at cruising speed there was incredible wobbling going on back and forth, from the front end. Is that from me tightening it up? Or is that a combination of me tightening it up against a worn out/dry bearings?? Or something else entirely?

Uh...yes?

All those things could cause it. I suspect first an old cupped tire. How are they? And since you're doing the bearing thing anyway, no sense worrying there. Finally, have the front forks (shocks) been drained, cleaned and refilled with good oil? That can cause it. There again you'll do that with the seals. So you're problem will be fixed.

[JAG]

Yeah my front tire is pretty worn. I'm waiting around for my Uncle to get his discount at bridgestone, so I can order a Spitfire..

I've tried draining and re oiling.

Trying to find the best place to order all these parts and I'll be back at it!!

Thanks again for all yalls help.

Once everything gets in I'll start a whole new round of questions, cause I'm sure I'll have 'em..

[JAG]

Oh.. should I replace my front fork springs, to say a progressive brand, while they're all apart? How crucial/important is it to have new springs?

[tbpmusic]

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ALL these bikes should have those crummy balls-o-steel replaced with tapered bearings as SOP.

And all of them should have some sort of steering damper - it's required on all racers in the vintage classes.

bill2

[MCRider]

Oh.. should I replace my front fork springs, to say a progressive brand, while they're all apart? How crucial/important is it to have new springs?

Its widely considered that the stock springs are trash when they were new. So some fresh ones from Progressive, which are wound progressivley as opposed to the stockers which are a linear wind, will improve the feel and braking, as the progresive wind reduces dive at the extreme.

[JAG]

Looks like PartsNMore is the best bet for all the things I need to get.

What do you guys think, as far as rear shocks go, will these be okay from PartsNMore?

"Black classic type shock body with 4 position spring preload adjustment. Progressive heavy duty chrome springs. Includes bushings, inserts, washers and spring preload wrench.
335mm (13 3/16") Eye to Clevis"

https://www.partsnmore.com/cat_index.php?model=cb750_sohc&category=chassis

Doesn't really give a brand name.

And I pardon my ignorance, but what is a steering damper? What does it do, and what's the benefits of having one? How is it mounted?
 

Thanks again

JAG
 

[mystic_1]

I've run those shocks before, they're ok but I never pushed their performance so I can't comment too much.  I recently swapped them out for shorty shocks.

A steering damper is like a shock absorber, in a way.  It connects from the lower triple tree to a point on the frame, and helps control wobble in the front end.

Wikipedia has an article about them.

mystic_1

[bistromath]

Many of these old bikes will wobble without steering input. I'd go so far as to say all of them will, at some speed or under some conditions. Things that will exacerbate it:

* Worn tires
* Worn steering bearings
* Old front shocks
* Rear wheel (hub alignment) out of true
* Rear wheel lacing crooked (runout)
* Under- or over-inflated tires
* Rear suspension too stiff or too loose
* Riding downhill with hands off bars (puts CG farther aft)
* Butterfly flapping wings in China

And those are just the first things that come to mind. If you really want it to stop, fit a steering damper.

[MCRider]

I've run those shocks before, they're ok but I never pushed their performance so I can't comment too much.  I recently swapped them out for shorty shocks.

A steering damper is like a shock absorber, in a way.  It connects from the lower triple tree to a point on the frame, and helps control wobble in the front end.

Wikipedia has an article about them.

mystic_1

True about a steering damper, nice to have, required in competition. BUT, I"LL REPEAT, do not use it to solve a problem. Everything should be perfect first, then install the damper. Otherwise, it may simply mask a problem that needs to be addressed. A perfectly set up bike, even old ones like ours should not wobble under normal circumstances unless pushed to an extreme as in competition or on a very bumpy road etc.

[mystic_1]

Many of these old bikes will wobble without steering input. I'd go so far as to say all of them will, at some speed or under some conditions.

Some wobble might be normal, under certain circumstances, but "incredible wobble" as JAG puts it sounds like a definite problem to me. 

I'd get those steering bearings swapped ASAP (it's a one-day job on a weekend) and then re-evaluate before deciding on a steering damper.  Until the, Beware the Dreaded Tank Slapper.

mystic_1

[JAG]

I'm definitely going to order the bearings, fork seals, fork boots (gaitors) fork springs (progressive) and those rear shocks  I posted earlier from partsnmore, I think they may be Chein Sheing (spelling) shocks..

Like these from JCWhitney~http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Product/Pr-p_Product.CATENTRY_ID:2007058/c-10111/Nty-1/p-2007058/Ntx-mode+matchallpartial/N-10111/tf-Browse/s-10101/Ntk-AllTextSearchGroup?Ntt=shocks

Paying $200 or more for shocks seems a bit overkill for my purpose- Being that this bike will never see a track. Any upgrade is better than none at all, and I think a good start is all that's listed above, before a steering damper is put into place.

I did increase my air pressure in my tires before I took off because I knew they were low, but I inflated them to the specs that were written on tire side wall~ 32psi Front- 41psi back.

[JAG]

Something else I've just noticed. The TAPERED STEERING BEARING CONVERSION KIT from partsnmore, isn't "All Balls" is there anything different from brand to brand or will this work just the same..

I'm trying to get everything I can in one place, and partsnmore seems to have the best deal. Only thing I cannot find is The progressive springs- aside from evilbay and cycle xchange. Still shopping around for those

[MCRider]

Something else I've just noticed. The TAPERED STEERING BEARING CONVERSION KIT from partsnmore, isn't "All Balls" is there anything different from brand to brand or will this work just the same..

I'm trying to get everything I can in one place, and partsnmore seems to have the best deal. Only thing I cannot find is The progressive springs- aside from evilbay and cycle xchange. Still shopping around for those

The bearings are essentially the same regardless of source. everybody's been selling those since the 70s. I'm sure there is a thread with the sizes, you could source them yourself from a local supply. The kits usually have a washer or instructions that are nice to have.

Try DennisKirk.com for the springs. Or call Progressivessuspension.com direct.

[JAG]

Well I've had everything is for awhile, just waiting for a warm enough day to get started on it.. Got some tapered bearings, gators, and fork seals.

I loosened everything up and removed the top triple tree, when I did the whole thing, forks and all collapsed out the bottom. I guess that would be a good thing, been hearing about how some people have had some trouple getting the steering stem removed from the frame. Everything is as clean as I can get it, just waiting to slap some grease on there and install the bearings

I turned my attention to the forks, which still has the "Bottom Tree" (?) attached. It's the portion just below the headlight ears. In all the pictures I have seen, the fork has been pulled away, when the tree(s) are attached and the steering stem is locked in place to the bike. Now I cannot seem to separate the forks from the "Bottom Tree".

Is there any suggestions as to the fix? I've searched quite a bit. And went to the 'socal' website and read the how to's, but nothing about the forks being still attached the tree itself.

Thanks for the tid bit.

P.S. The goal was to change out the seals and replace gators.

[MCRider]

Well I've had everything is for awhile, just waiting for a warm enough day to get started on it.. Got some tapered bearings, gators, and fork seals.

I loosened everything up and removed the top triple tree, when I did the whole thing, forks and all collapsed out the bottom. I guess that would be a good thing, been hearing about how some people have had some trouple getting the steering stem removed from the frame. Everything is as clean as I can get it, just waiting to slap some grease on there and install the bearings

I turned my attention to the forks, which still has the "Bottom Tree" (?) attached. It's the portion just below the headlight ears. In all the pictures I have seen, the fork has been pulled away, when the tree(s) are attached and the steering stem is locked in place to the bike. Now I cannot seem to separate the forks from the "Bottom Tree".

Is there any suggestions as to the fix? I've searched quite a bit. And went to the 'socal' website and read the how to's, but nothing about the forks being still attached the tree itself.

Thanks for the tid bit.

P.S. The goal was to change out the seals and replace gators.

You got a little ahead of yourself. To remove the whole thing, one would start first with the wheel, then fender, then each fork leg separately, then the triple trees last.

So you have the two fork legs still clamped in the lower tree? That's what you mean by "attached"? You should be able to loosen the clamp bolts, then twisting the tubes, they should turn in the clamp and then slide out. You may need some encouragement like PBBlaster or WD-40 where the tube is in the clamp. But it shouldn't be a big problem even on an old one. If you have rubber gator boots, you'll need to pull them down from the fork ears to get a grip on the tubes. If you use a tool like a pipe wrench or a band wrench, stay as close to the bottom of the clamp as possible. You don't want to ding the tubes where the seal runs up and down.

[JAG]

I didn't mention the wheel and fender, but everyhthing was apart at that time. Sorry for the confusion.

I got the fork out (that contains the spring) of the "tube" by prying loose at the bottom of the boot/gator, to unleash it's hold, and then taping gently on the bolt that holds the spring in place. It slid through the housing that holds the headlight in place. And the finally undoing the allen bolt on the bottom took it all apart from there. It was pretty smooth sailing after that.

Thanks for the help.