Topic: Any guitarists here? Gear question...

[GroovieGhoulie]

Which is the best attenuator out there? When I get back, I am upgrading my amp setup and am gonna be needing one for practice and playing smaller venues.

I am looking for one that will not f*ck with my tone when it's turned "down", you know? I've heard the "Ultimate Attenuator" is good, but damn, it's pricey. The Hotplate I hear is awesome, but it f*cks with the tone when pushed, compressing and "hollowing it out" is what I've read.

Any ideas?

[eldar]

Well you are certainly asking a harder question. tone is hard to control at certain volumes. in most smaller venues, the amp is miced and mixed which means that you do not have to run that loud. the band I work for, we do that and then they use in ear monitors. Some of the better players around here use a fender amp, a 2 speakers that are 8 in I think. They sure can get loud but are not set loud since the in ear takes care of their hearing issues. So you may be better off to get a smaller amp that sounds killer and the money saved can be used to get an in-ear monitor.

[mlinder]

Dunno what kind of Amp you use, but I use a Vox Valvetronix. Uses a tube preamp with a special set of resistors that act like various speaker cabinets. Then, that is amplified by the solid state amp.
Theres a master volume on the back of the amp, and using this, while leaving all the other settings the same, make it sound the same no matter what wattage you are running, from 1 watt to 100 watts. Works great, as your guitar sound doesn't change no matter how much you need to turn it down for smaller venues.
HotPlate attenuators are what, 300 bucks? Vox amps are a bit more. Plus, you may not WANT the sound of the Vox amp. Attenuators can cause damage to some amps though.
I know I didn't help much, but just giving you my experience.

[Caaveman82]

Dunno what kind of Amp you use, but I use a Vox Valvetronix. Uses a tube preamp with a special set of resistors that act like various speaker cabinets. Then, that is amplified by the solid state amp.
Theres a master volume on the back of the amp, and using this, while leaving all the other settings the same, make it sound the same no matter what wattage you are running, from 1 watt to 100 watts. Works great, as your guitar sound doesn't change no matter how much you need to turn it down for smaller venues.
HotPlate attenuators are what, 300 bucks? Vox amps are a bit more. Plus, you may not WANT the sound of the Vox amp. Attenuators can cause damage to some amps though.
I know I didn't help much, but just giving you my experience.

+1

Vox is one of the better "low" end amps I've ever used.... When I say "low" end I mean affordable. The 50 amp sounds insane...

[GroovieGhoulie]

I could get a smaller or Master Volume amp, but I'm falling into a deal that is too good to pass up AND it is the EXACT '70s punk tone I am looking for, so it will be the Alpha and the Omega, the last amp I ever need to buy.

The problem is, it's a Marshall Fullstack and the setup is insanely powerful and only sounds the way I want with the amp "dimed out" with every knob at 10.  (Some "problem", right?  Like "too much cash" is a problem.)

It's a '70s Marshall JMP Mark II Super Lead 100w head with no Master Volume, so to get the punk distortion I need, (think early Ramones), I need tube saturation, which I can only get with it CRANKED UP.  Just like Johnny.

And it's gonna be driven through two Marshall 1960BX 4x12 cabs with the 25w Celestion Greenbacks, so if I run it as a halfstack, I would need an attenuator to prevent running the speakers at their max, shortening their life, maybe blowing 'em.

Yeah, having a Marshall fullstack is maybe a bit much, but I'm in a punk band and the bassist is using a Ampeg SVT with an 8x10 cab turned up, so I gotta get heard over that, plus, we like sending the audience away picking amp grillcloth out of their teeth, just like The Ramones did in the '70s.  Loud, Fast and Relentless.  Up the punx!!

And even if the setup IS mic'd, such as in smaller venues, I can run it as a half-stack, dimed out for tone, then the power brake to lower the volume for the PA.  Though as a purist, I would like to see how it sounded on its own in a club with no mic'ing and I think it would hold its own.

Interesting point about the in-ear monitors.  I might look at them, since I'm using foam plugs now, and with a 100w stack, they would be a necessity, I think.

[mlinder]

A little fender twin reverb can be heard over an SVT 8x10.
Remember, it takes a lot more energy to make lower tones heard.
If you are running 2 4x12's, you can't start worrying about being 'too loud'. Just assume you will always be 'too loud' unless you are playing at a place that seats 1500 people or more.
Thr attenuator will prolly hekp with that. But a full marshal stack style setup is really overkill for anything but large venues.

To put it in persepctive, I played at the Crystal Ballroom in Portland, OR. Holds maybe 1600 or 1700 people. My Vox 2x12 100 watt amp was at, maybe 3/4 maximum output. Usually around 1/2, with dynamic playing.
Remember that your guitar will ALWAYS sound better put through the PA system.
Why? Because the sound signal is then coming from multiple sources, as well as being eq's properly for the room by the soundman.

[GroovieGhoulie]

Good call on the soundman and multiple sources.

Yeah, I know a fullstack is overpowered for anything short of a stadium, but an original, unmodded JMP Super Lead and two cabs for just over $1000?  It's a deal I can't pass up.  It's a guy who's getting out of the business and is liquidating his stuff to prepare for the bad economy.  The cabs are newer, and in great shape and I've heard the head before, (but not personally played it), and it's one of the "good ones".

For the same money, I could get a nice "reasonable" combo, but come on, how can you pass up a vintage Marshall stack for that kind of money?  It will be awesome.

[eldar]

Thats why I say to mic the amp. Find a GOOD amp that plays tones well at low volume. Once miced, the soundman will push the gain where it needs to be and tweak the mix then. From there, some reverb can also be added along with echo if wanted. That way, you do not have to worry about being heard as you WILL be heard. The in-ear will allow you to control the mix you hear in whatever way you want. You can add in more you, cut out vocals or whatever. The in-ears use foam or rubber surrounds to block out outside sounds.

[mlinder]

It'd be cool to own, but I wouldn't have used it, myslef, for 3 reasons:

1: Sound Quality for the places I'm playing
2: Transportation. Lugging that #$%* around 3 or 4 times a month would be a pain in the ass
3: If I have it cranked all the time, my bandmates will need to buy louder equipment, and most likely onstage monitoring will be useless, so the singer etc. wont be able to hear himself.

[eldar]

Yeah on stage, moderate volume is best. Too low and it will be hard to get anything. Too loud and everything will get mushed together.When I do sound, I gripe about things being too loud. I tell them, "let me crank it up. I can turn up your in-ears."
I really hate when drummers do not tighten down their cymbals enough and the ride and crash are so loud that I can hear them over anything else at the back of the room!

[mlinder]

I always did whatever my soundman said for best sound on the floor. If they need my amp quieter, it's fine. They can always throw some of it in the monitor if I'm having trouble hearing it.
I'm playing for the people who came to see me, not for myself.

[mlinder]

If you want to hear the Vox without distortion, paired with a couple midiverb II's, which is what i use, heres some
www.submarine-fleet.com/junk/09_Submarine_Fleet_-_Reflections_on_a_Tilting_Pond.mp3

You may not like the music, but the guitar sound is really nice, and like I said, I could have the exact same sound from 1 watt to 100 watts.

Was a deal maker for me, that feature.

[eldar]

A guitarist I know uses an old marshall cabinet, late 60s era I think with 4 10" woofers I think. Paired with a marshall head and another item but I cant remember what. His tone is awesome. When he plays something like guns n roses, it sounds virtually like slash. It is a tube head if I remember correctly and I do not think the speakers have ever been reconed.

[mlinder]

A lot of the old stuff is relatively low powered.
I used to run old vox tube heads with fender cabs with JBL speakers. The vox heads were 13 watts each. Ran two of em for stereo. Sounded great. Just not practical.

[TwoTired]

Is the tone you want produced solely from the amp or is part of it from the speaker coloration when driven at high levels?
The speakers don't have a uniform impedance at all frequencies and at all power levels.  They are rated for a "nominal" characteristic impedance.  I don't know if any of the "attenuators" reproduce the speaker dynamic for the amp output impedance.

There can also be a sound pressure level effect on the guitar, too, which changes the sound going to the amp.  You don't get this at low output levels.

I gave up on the amp being used for tone coloration.  I went with a clean power amp and clean PA speakers.  All my tone coloration comes from preprocessing the signal going to the amp and whatever the guitar chosen produces as the raw signal.  "Sound modeling" gives me all, and more, tones I want (including vintage amp and speaker emulation) minus the sound pressure feedback (speakers to guitar).  While this later feedback can be fun to play with, it is not easy to control even in the studio, much less so in a live venue, with reflections and other sound stimulus, too.

Cheers,

[mlinder]

I considered going the same way, TT, but I needed a single amp I could cart around, so went for the vox because it acts like your amp setup, with tube preamp, modeling, and speaker emulation, through a very nice solid state amp and good 12" drivers.

[GroovieGhoulie]

Great advice here!!

I will take it all under consideration, and conduct more research.

[fuzzybutt]

what kind of guitar are you playing? wouldnt a real ventures model mosrite be nice for that johnny ramone sound.

[GroovieGhoulie]

what kind of guitar are you playing? wouldnt a real ventures model mosrite be nice for that johnny ramone sound.

Unfortunately I play left-handed, so a REAL Ventures II is out of the question.  However, there IS a guy in Australia building Mosrite copies EXACTLY like they were back in the day, and he's a Ramones fan, so you can specify the "upgrades" that Johnny made to his guitar (Grover tuners and different tailpiece, Dimarzio FS1 pickups), and he'll do it.  And he even does Lefty models for no upcharge, since each one is a custom made item. 

Problem is, he has a three year backlog right now and isn't taking orders.  But the minute he DOES, I'm there.  I WILL have a left-handed version of Johnny's Mosrite.

As it is now, I'm playing on a Left-handed 1986-vintage Kramer Focus 1000, which was the Japanese-built Baretta.  West German Gotoh tuners, single Gibson Humbucker pickup, real (not licensed) Floyd Rose tremolo (which I have bottomed out since I don't use it).  I'm changing the pickup to the Dimarzio FS1 like Johnny had and since I've been deployed and haven't touched it since I left, I'm gonna have it set up and gone through when I get the new pickup installed.

It's got everything I need: one pickup, volume knob (maxed out, of course), that's it.

[fuzzybutt]

i have the gotoh tuners on all my electrics now. i had my first experience with them on my danelectro hodad, liked em so much i got a set for my hardtail stratocaster and my dean evo xm. crappy pic but this is my main guitar now. i LOVE the danelectro.

[GroovieGhoulie]

The next guitar I get will be a Strat.  I played a LH Highway 1 at a shop a few years ago and I was blown away by it.  I had never played one, and MAN it just felt RIGHT.  Like I was 10x better just from the guitar.  The action was fast and crisp, and the tone was exactly what I was looking for out of those single-coils.

I would have bought it right there, but I was unemployed at the time and didn't have $600 to spare.

So now I'll probably wait for a Mexican Standard Strat and see how it sounds.

One thing that is funny about those Gotoh tuners I have is that they are a blast from the past and actually say "Made in W. Germany" on them!

[fuzzybutt]

i had a mexican tele for a while, had better action than my es-335

[azuredesign]

D/FW should have lots of good amp repair guys. If it makes sense, call a vintage shop like Charlie Guitars in Dallas, and ask about finding a  tube amp repair guy that knows about voltage attenuators. For $300. I'd have somebody build me one. That way you can taylor it to your needs. I agree that the JMP deal sounds like a good one, but at my age, I'm happy to use smaller amps whenever I can. I'm even happier when someone transports them and sets them up of me.

[tramp]

don't do the mex strat
they save money in the eltronics
my strat has the single coil pickups and sounds great
use a marshall avt 150 and it sounds great
that stack sounds like a great deal but overpowered for everything but a stadium

[GroovieGhoulie]

don't do the mex strat
they save money in the eltronics
my strat has the single coil pickups and sounds great

What can a good US Strat be had for?  I found some LH Mex Strats for around $240 New-in-box, and the US Highway 1 models, which are the cheapest US models are around $500.  I'm planning to upgrade the axe anyway for more "punx tone" at the recommendation of a buddy: putting a Dimarzio FS-1 in the bridge position, maybe a mini-humbucker in the neck position, jump the tone knob and the neck volume knob wiring to be maxed all the time, unhook the middle pickup, upgrade the tuners and lock down the tremolo so it should hopefully stay in tune better with the constant machine-gun eighth-note downstrokes.

that stack sounds like a great deal but overpowered for everything but a stadium

But it should rock people's faces off, right? 

[eldar]

What type of nut does your guitar have? A lot have plastic and it grips the strings and causes things to go out of tune. I would recommend moving to a bone but and getting locking tuners. Locking tuners also make string changes a freakin breeze!

[GroovieGhoulie]

My Kramer's got one of those locking nuts for the Floyd Rose, so you can bend the strings down until they are floppy and it'll hold tune, but I don't have any of the locking caps.  Don't have locking tuners.  Those sound like a good idea.  Any good brands?

[eldar]

Well Schaller is used on fenders. Sperzel is another good brand. I would stick with these 2 brands. Sperzel seems to be highly rated also.

[Caaveman82]

      Again dude, Vox. Vox, Vox, Vox. If you are going to be playing punk music you can emulate so many different amp styles. I can tune my amp in and replicate damn near any punk band you can think of.... Crass, Flux of Pink Indians, Dead Kennedys, Subhumans, Aus Rotten, who ever. Plus it has that nice tube amp sound because it is a tube pre-amp. For the money it's quite possibly the most pratical choice. Mlinder hit the nail on the head. You really don't want to gig with a giant stack man. It's a pain in the ace plus you leave that gear in your car before your gig and whamo your a target.

[tramp]

got locking tuners on my other strat, love em