Author Topic: Whether or not this was written by Michael Moore....  (Read 5072 times)

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eldar

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Re: Whether or not this was written by Michael Moore....
« Reply #50 on: December 12, 2008, 08:30:39 AM »
I meant it as more that it was planned to take till 2011 to implement the wage requirements that were set up. I should have said it as such.  :)

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Re: Whether or not this was written by Michael Moore....
« Reply #51 on: December 12, 2008, 08:55:53 AM »
Eldar, one would think, that after spending months in the political threads sparring with Ed, you would know better. ;D ;D ;D
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eldar

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Re: Whether or not this was written by Michael Moore....
« Reply #52 on: December 12, 2008, 10:07:05 AM »

Offline 333

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Re: Whether or not this was written by Michael Moore....
« Reply #53 on: December 12, 2008, 12:35:17 PM »
Let's be clear.  The Republicans have always been anti union.  So it is no surprise that:

Quote
He said Senator Corker admitted to the union's representatives that discussions over wages were "largely about politics in the GOP caucus," referring to the Republican party

And as I was preparing a post this morning, I was watching Gettelfingers conference.  He had documents proving that the transplants actual workers average wages were actually around $30.00/hr vs $28.00 for the U.S. workers.  The figures that have been tossed around ($70.00/hr) include things like money for the job bank and such, all of which have been settled on by the majority (Democrats) of the Senate.  Even Dubya is with the Dems on this issue.  It is these Senate Republicans that are the stopping factor here.  Or almost.  Thanks to the Treasury Dept., TARP money will be used to help the Big 3, announced as Gettelfinger was having his press conference this morning.

I expect biased reports by sources like Fox.  But this link from ITH.com is supposed to be the electronic side of The New York Times.  I watched the entire conference this morning, and ITH left a lot out.
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Offline Tower

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Re: Whether or not this was written by Michael Moore....
« Reply #54 on: December 12, 2008, 12:59:52 PM »
The argument about wages can be characterized by the position that:
At $55 wages + $15 pension/benefits GM cannot deliver a product that makes them money.  Whereas, at $45 wages + $8 benefits Honda can.  $70 vs $53  or about 24% disparity.

Another way to look at this position is: What kind of auto does GM have to make to be profitable when the cost of production of any auto is more-or-less the same, i.e it costs about the same to make a Cavalier as it does an SUV, but the revenue is 2-3x on the SUV.  Implying, that the cost of labour is THE factor in either making money on the kind of cars that are needed, or not. And that Honda can sell smaller cars with smaller margins, because they have lower labour costs. (Quality just means Honda can get more revenue, that then increases the margin).  Whereas GM must make pricier larger cars to make the same margin, because they have bigger labour costs.  Its this pressure on GM that forces them to continue to make the cars we don't need.

The counter-arguement is:
We know that labour is about 45% of the cost of the auto.  A huge piece, and the single largest piece, which makes it an obvious target.  But think about all the contributing factors.  First, the auto cost disparity (e.g. between GM and Honda) attributable to wages is therefore about 10% (45% of 24%). Second, there is no reason, other than greed that margins even need to be at parity.  GM can operate at a lower margin and still make obscene profits.  They have indeed been forced, ever so slightly, to lower their margins over the last few years.

Then there are the components of the markup, such as risk, currency inflation, exec overhead, admin overhead, dealership overhead, etc. etc., that raise the cost by another 50% (approx).  When wage cost disparity is applied against the MSRP, it reduces to about 6-7% of the price.   You have to ask what are the bare essential markup components versus those that are applied.  In other words, is GM taking excess profit?  Can they sell a car for 6%-7% less to offset the wage disparity?  How obvious is it that the answer is a resounding "Of course".

GM has not kept up, not because of wage disparity, but because the elites refused to acknowledge the changing world, refused to participate in austerity measures at their end, refused to place profits into retooling and distribution reform, refused to focus on meaningful technology (a better ashtray or a curvier fender is not meaningfull), and refused to tell their buddies at big oil to shove it.  The result is not a margin/expense problem, its a revenue/sales problem.  They have a market share problem - their cars are simply not selling.  As the emperors of their domain (they sold more cars than all others combined, at one point in time), they had lost touch with this problem 30 years ago, and haven't regained it, just as the French rulers did right before the revolution.

The real problem is that by hitting the workers, GM would be refusing to support American workers, in favour of larger profits, and they still wouldn't regain market share.  The company that said "What is good for GM is good for America" would have to eat those words, the last shoe would drop...and the beheading would begin.  Oh, the indignity.  After all, they are entitled to be chiefs, they have made no mistakes, and will continue to rule in this manner ad infinitum. (yah, right)  The irony, is that one way or another, the GM chiefs will be ousted.  They simply refuse to entertain the thought that mere US Senators would have the audacity to do it. 

US autoworker wages should not be the scapegoat.  If anything, the USA should be concentrating on how to raise the wages in the countries it does business.  That was the supposed benefit of globalization, wasn't it?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 01:03:03 PM by Tower »

Offline Demon67

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Re: Whether or not this was written by Michael Moore....
« Reply #55 on: December 12, 2008, 02:15:23 PM »
Tower, funny you know I've heard that statement before about how the workers in other countries were going to have more money so that they could buy our goods and services, if you've heard it too, it can't be a figment of my imagination, I wonder what happened to the money?
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Offline 333

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Re: Whether or not this was written by Michael Moore....
« Reply #56 on: December 12, 2008, 04:13:25 PM »
One big flaw in your thinking, Tower.  If GM were making "obscene profits", why are they in such financial trouble now?


There are many factors in the disparity between the transplants and the Big 3.  The largest would be the hundreds of millions of dollars in tax credits that each transplant factory gets each year.  And today, we find out that some even got more, like the land that the factories sit on, utilities not just brought to the sites, but laid out for the foundations of the buildings, and promises to buy thousands of cars.  Certainly the UAW had a part in this, but they have made concessions to do their part.  And Big 3 CEO pay is also a factor, but again, that was one of the first things they gave up after their first trip to Washington.

I don't think it's a matter of GM not keeping up with their products.  The effort that has been put into development of the Volt has been unprecedented in GM history.  It is the first car in recent history that will go entirely on batteries, at least for 40 miles.  And both GM and Ford have more hybrid models than Honda or Toyota.
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Offline Tower

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Re: Whether or not this was written by Michael Moore....
« Reply #57 on: December 12, 2008, 05:15:33 PM »
Indeed, @Demon67 and @333, we should ask be asking, given the huge annual profits (until just recently) where is the money? ???

Indeed, we should be asking why the tax concessions to a select few? ???

And indeed we should be shaking our heads and asking, "The Volt?" Several tiny companies around the world have been producing better designs for over two years (even in Canada), and you guys with your mega-resources come up with the Volt? And not until 20xx?  Really? ::)

Perhaps we're being too severe.  After all, a $300M salary can only get you so much. ::)

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Whether or not this was written by Michael Moore....
« Reply #58 on: December 12, 2008, 05:42:12 PM »
I'd like to note that the Volt isn't going ever be reality until they finish developing the battery for it.  Right now, it is only concept-ware.  GM has it scheduled for when the the battery is ready.  Care to guess what happens to the car if the battery isn't ready per schedule?
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