Topic: Dec 7th! A Date We Should Remember And Keep In Reverence!

[bill440cars]

        I meant to do this early today and got side tracked. The Bombing of Pearl Harbor is something that should never be forgotten.

                                     

[nickjtc]

The 'Day of Infamy'. Noted, Bill.

But isn't it interesting that as soon as 15 years after the war we in the western world started getting a taste of what technological marvels the Japanese were producing, including the forerunners of our sohc's.

[Ecosse]

Well done Bill!  Thanks for the reminder; had it marked on the calender then proceeded to forget it anyway.

Yeah nickjtc, maybe they should have been dropping transistor radios and reliable motorcycles instead of bombs.

[bill440cars]

       When I see a special about Pearl Harbor and they start talking about the USS Arizona and all, I get all tingly!  


       You know, I was a little skeptical when I was in the Air Force in and got sent over to Japan for a 2 yr tour in 67' - 69'. But, you know, I wasn't there very long at all before I just kinda fell right into doing some sight seeing in Tokyo and got to thinking about those Japanese bikes. Bikes are my weakness! I really HATE what happened at Pearl Harbor, but I try to look at it like "That was then & This is now".      

       

[Ecosse]

       When I see a special about Pearl Harbor and they start talking about the USS Arizona and all, I get all tingly!  


       You know, I was a little skeptical when I was in the Air Force in and got sent over to Japan for a 2 yr tour in 67' - 69'. But, you know, I wasn't there very long at all before I just kinda fell right into doing some sight seeing in Tokyo and got to thinking about those Japanese bikes. Bikes are my weakness! I really HATE what happened at Pearl Harbor, but I try to look at it like "That was then & This is now".      

       

It was moving to see the reunion of sorts between the American and Japanese GI's who were once enemies and now in their twilight years find they are really brothers who experienced something deeper, more profound, and painful than I could ever hope to imagine. Quite an emotional moment when both Japanese and Americans payed tribute at the Arizona too.

I have zero problems admitting I weep like a little girl when I see an old tough soldier tear up upon recollecting those terrible days, describing things he saw sometimes for the first time ever then apologizing to us for losing his composure!!

I owe everything I have and will ever have to these people. 

[tramp]

i saw that at the memorial, japanese and american sailors shaking hands
if my old man ever saw that he'd flip
he always said "they started it we ended it"

[Rocking-M]

It's as shame that Roosevelt knew of the coming attack and let it happen.

[City Boy]

Something I have always wondered about Rocking-M.My understanding of the times had the U.S. and Japan already close to a shooting war.Pearl Harbour was the home of the bulk of the Pacific fleet.How on earth did a huge Imperial Fleet sneak in close enough to launch an air attack without being detected by perimeter air patrols?We all owe a debt of gratitude to the men and women who sacrificed to protect freedom and continue to do so!When the Motherland declared war in '39,my father and all his buddies headed down to the exhibition grounds in Toronto and signed upthe next day.

[eldar]

Given the state that america was in at the time, still trying to work out of the depression and everyone touting isolationism, it would not surprise me. Was it a bad decision? Considering had it NOT happened, there is a good chance that all of europe and asia along with africa, would have been taken over by the axis, maybe it was a good if painful choice. we know the british would not have held off hitler forever.

Was there another way? Maybe but as none of us were there, who knows.
I cant imagine the trials the soldiers endured, I would not even want to try. I read a book called Pacific War Diary. It was written by a sailor on a light cruiser and it detailed the day to day operations and the nights of terror cruising though sub infested waters and such.

I will always remember Pearl and I will teach my kids about it. It IS a day which should always be remembered.

[Demon67]

Yeah guys it started off the end for the axis, I was too young to remember the panic of the Japanese attacks but somewhere around the end of the war I remember my father telling me about the Japanese sub that shelled Pt Atkinson lighthouse on the approaches to Vancouver harbour also a little later than that about the poor treatment of the Japanese residents of BC, a lot of who had had no ties to the homeland. It's dammed unfortunate that so many had to die just to have a change of government in Japan but I think that the Japanese would have been as bad or worse than the Nazis.
Bill the demon.

[CharlieT]

It's as shame that Roosevelt knew of the coming attack and let it happen.

ANother consipiracy theory that in spite of nearly a dozen investigations has never been proven.

[Ecosse]

Right on eldar, pretty much all that I've read or saw on video goes along with that.

In many cases Demon the Japanese were worse than the Nazis in regards to war crimes and on the battlefield. It just wasn't covered nearly so in history classes and particularly in Japanese culture until recently.

Forgive my foggy memory but there were reasons there wasn't a Japanese version of the Nuremberg trials.

While I think it sad, I cannot criticize those who lived through this time (in battle or in concentration and prisoner of war camps) for never buying anything Japanese or German or forgiving either. I simply cannot look these people in the eye and say suck it up, the war is over. It's for the rest of us who can to do this.

Sadly, often when you ask a kid who was it who fought on our side in WWII, the Italians or the Russians, they choose incorrectly.

Worse, they defend ignorance with the classic "it was before my time".

[eldar]

What is it they say? Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it? Or something like that? /sarcasm
Shows you how well schools do on history. Of course I am sure that they get more money to teach other things. If people do not remember the past, they will be much easier to coerce into doing it all over again.

[DRam]

Question:  Why should the bombing of Pearl Harbor never be forgotten? 

Answer:  So we can memorialize those who fought and died.  So we can remember what war really is.  So we can understand what brings war about.  So we can perhaps avoid war in the future.

As Eldar said, those who forget history are bound to repeat it.  Those who glorify war and treat it as a grand adventure need to hear and see what that grand adventure really is.  They need to listen to those who were there, or read their records, visit the memorials and think about 1,100 men drowned, about the families they left behind.  They need to think on the untold thousands of others who died, or worse perhaps, were maimed.  Some beyond belief.

And then they need to be totally certain there is no other recourse but war before going to one. 

[Ecosse]

Question:  Why should the bombing of Pearl Harbor never be forgotten? 

Answer:  So we can memorialize those who fought and died.  So we can remember what war really is.  So we can understand what brings war about.  So we can perhaps avoid war in the future.

As Eldar said, those who forget history are bound to repeat it.  Those who glorify war and treat it as a grand adventure need to hear and see what that grand adventure really is.  They need to listen to those who were there, or read their records, visit the memorials and think about 1,100 men drowned, about the families they left behind.  They need to think on the untold thousands of others who died, or worse perhaps, were maimed.  Some beyond belief.

And then they need to be totally certain there is no other recourse but war before going to one. 

Agreed, and no one would agree more I dare say than the people who shed blood for the rest of us. I'd only add that there is also a reminder that there are things bigger than the individual worth sacrificing for, including the so called ultimate sacrifice.

It (the 'reminder') doesn't automatically assume war is the default answer but that sometimes there's no appeasing a madman, witness Chamberlain in (was it?) 1938. I think Gandhi believed his peaceful resistance methods would have worked against Imperial Japan and the Nazi's but, sadly, I don't agree.   

[HavocTurbo]

It's as shame that Roosevelt knew of the coming attack and let it happen.

ANother consipiracy theory that in spite of nearly a dozen investigations has never been proven.

I read somewhere, I think a Paul Harvey book, in high school that some admiral or general pointed out the weaknesses of using the harbor in HI shortly after WWI. Among most of the allied countries at the time, representatives from Japan also happened to be there.

What made me remember it was it was basically the same attack plan the admiral or general had explained to the representatives.

Been looking for that bit of info for hours now and cannot seem to find it anywhere.

[Rocking-M]

It's as shame that Roosevelt knew of the coming attack and let it happen.

ANother consipiracy theory that in spite of nearly a dozen investigations has never been proven.

I'm afraid it has been proven to those with a reasonable mind.

Just over Thanksgiving I was talking to my uncle about his Dad who was in the Pacific.
He had 3 kids when he went in and was trained as a rescue swimmer. My uncle Frank said
his Dad never took him swimming after the war and he had to learn to swim at a church camp.
His dad was one or the rescue swimmers at the USS Indy, Guy (Franks Dad) never talked about it while living.
One fellow he pulled out had a life buoy around him and was still alive, when they lifted him out
there was only half of the man left. Guy never swam after the War. He also served as one of
the first shore patrols after Japan's surrender.

[toycollector10]

A nice relevant post, as usual, Bill.

I always say, "They started it, we finished it"

So a big remembrance to all those boys who came down to the South Pacific to get the job done. Camped out at a place called McKay's Crossing down here in New Zealand. Did 60 mile route marches in full battle gear in the heat of a full summer to get in shape. Then shipped off to Guadalcanal and other islands to get themselves damn well killed. A remembrance to all the sailors and others who were killed at Hawaii.

If it wasn't for the GI's, the Marines and the USAF I would be some bloody house-boy for you know who.

Now, I might be offending a particular member here on the forum, but there is no offence deliberately intended, but I will call it as I see it because I live in a democracy.

[eldar]

Yes you do live in a democracy where you have at least some freedom of speech. Of course in the old japanese society, men had more rights than women but that is beside the point.

What I think is the icing on the cake is that many of these former enemies are able to set the past aside and see that they were all just pawns for their governments. Some have even become friends, or so I have heard.

[tramp]

when i was stationed in san diego they brought over a jap zero and they found the pilot of that plane was still alive
they brought him over for a interview at the museum where they had his plane on display
during the interview they pointed to a bullet hole right in the middle of the bottom seat
he told the reporter that out of all the bullet holes he remembered that one the most

[CharlieT]

It's as shame that Roosevelt knew of the coming attack and let it happen.

ANother consipiracy theory that in spite of nearly a dozen investigations has never been proven.

I'm afraid it has been proven to those with a reasonable mind.

No, I'm afraid it hasn't, my friend, that's just your opnion, an opinion beleived by some, but a long way from being anything other than an opinion. Now of course it depends on exactly the specifics of what you mean. Did they feel that there was a likelihood that the Japanese may respond at sometime in a military fashion, then yes. If you are saying that he knew specifically where they would attack if the were to do so, then no. And if you think that it was doen to draw the US into the war, a reasonable person would disagree, as sufficient justification already existed if the US wanted so badly to get involved in WWII in Europe. Try looking up the history of the attacks on the U.S.S. Reuben James and U.S.S. Kearny in October of 1941, months before Pearl Harobr. Attacking and sinking US Naval warhips in the open seas should have been sufficient justification for declaring war on Germany had the administration been so keen on finding justifications for going to war.