Author Topic: Why do/did banks need a bailout?  (Read 3215 times)

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Offline TwoTired

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Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« on: December 11, 2008, 04:32:17 PM »
I'm starting to see a lot of house for sale signs that say "bank owned".

Clearly, I'm no financial wizard.  But, is the following a reasonable scenario?

Purchaser, buys a house, puts 10% down and makes payments for 5 years.  The family loses their income, can't sell the house above water, and the bank takes the collateral asset in lieu of future payments.  The evicted gets nothing and loses their entire investment on it.

5 years ago, in these parts, the house and property were purchased at say $500,000.  The market prior to the housing value fall was valued at about $600,000.  But, there was no reason to sell at that time.  Life was good.

Now, the bank is selling said house for $400,000 as the recent housing market has taken a dive.

Please explain to me how the bank loses out on this?

It was a $450,000 / 5% loan.    And, for 60 months the bank got $2415/mo or $144,900 from the evicted.  If they indeed sell the house for asking price, the bank gets back $594,900, from house sale and payments.  What did they lose?
They still get 32.2 % ROI on their $450,000 investment/loan.  Or, 6.44 % per annum over those 5 years.

Certainly the evicted lost out big time.  But, how did the lender suffer?

How did I figure this wrong, and why are we bailing out banks?

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2008, 04:45:02 PM »
I'm curious too! Particularity since I heard that one bank received a pretty good chunk of the bail out, and
then called in the loans they had made to a struggling business which has caused or is causing the business to
belly up and the employees to lose their jobs. How is that for a turn around? I didn't catch the complete story
but perhaps someone else did.

Offline 333

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2008, 05:19:57 PM »
Just a guess, but home sales are still way down, regardless who owns them.  And when you multiply this by the huge number of homes defaulted on...  The key word is "if".  If they sell it, they won't lose.  And certainly some will sell.  But my guess is that most won't for a long while.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2008, 06:58:27 PM »
What you say makes sense, a lot of sense. The problem the Banks have is liquidity. These foreclosed properties are called non performing assets. They calculate a steady revenue stream coming in from each loan. They in turn borrow money in the form of CD's savings accounts etc, for which they have to pay interest. They also have invested in other of these inflated securities.
When they foreclose on a property, they must pay legal fees, any outstanding property taxes and continue making tax payments. They will have to maintain the property and protect it from vandalism. At this point they are negative on the loan. If the home sells they have closing fees and broker commissions to pay. If there is a profit margin that is not whatthey are in business for.

In some cases they actually may have borrowed the funds from another bank to make these loans, or sold paper on the market to fund the loans. They have to pay on these obligations.
They also may have bought this mortgage from lenders and brokers.

In your scenario a single home would not have a great impact. When I did a year and a half at HSBC, we expected a number of "walk aways" each year.

The second problem is phony appraisals. Many of these Brokers arm twisted appraisers to inflate the value of the property and it's condition. People were also allowed to take equity out of a home they had only bought a few months ago, so the total obligations on the property is not 90% of an inflated value, it can be as high as 110% of an inflated value.

A bank with a large portfolio non performing has a very difficult time borrowing money, there is no honor among thieves. Unfortunately, we now own these non performing assets since the Government bought this toilet paper, so the Banks had cash to work with.

I hate it, I would love to see the big shots who allowed this to happen do at least a year in the joint. The Government could not allow our financial system to collapse, or things could be worse. As it is, legitimate businesses with good track records cannot borrow capital. My personal 401K is down 50k and my wife's about the same. We are lucky compared to many who invested less conservatively. As of now we are down 100K.
So for us to be even, we have to recover 100K in the portfolio before we can move forward. We were going to retire in two years, that may not be possible. I am pizzed as shirt over this.     

I saw things that curled my hair going on out there. I am no financial whiz, but I could see the whole thing was going to tip over. I left the business for that reason.   
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Offline 333

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2008, 07:19:01 PM »
Where you saying something relevent?  I was staring at your avatar.
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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2008, 08:30:07 PM »
Its simple

Banks need bailing out because my wife works for one, and if she looses her job I will have to get a real one and have less time to tinker with my bike.
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Offline ghost

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2008, 09:03:48 PM »
I'm curious too! Particularity since I heard that one bank received a pretty good chunk of the bail out, and
then called in the loans they had made to a struggling business which has caused or is causing the business to
belly up and the employees to lose their jobs. How is that for a turn around? I didn't catch the complete story
but perhaps someone else did.
it's happening all over the place. that's what happened to my job three months ago, then same think happened at my wife's work last month. forget christmas this year, i'll be thrilled if i manage to find rent money this month. plus the electric and gas and insurance on our cars, i could go on but i think my point is made. i can only hope the job market turns soon
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2008, 10:20:58 PM »
Bobby hit it right on the head.  The banks sold other obligations based on the payments from the loans.  The banks are obligated to pay back these obligations, regardless of the general #s of foreclosures, so they are screwed when their borrowers default.
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2008, 10:50:50 PM »
Simple concept. They give money away and need more to give away. Seems a lot of people don't realize they are supposed to repay these "gifts". It's not really the bank's money, it belongs to the depositors and whoever gave/loaned it to them in the first place so why not?! The officers of the banks get paid BIG to do that. 
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Offline gregimotis

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2008, 11:01:09 PM »
So let me understand this:

The banks run their business by borrowing against their future income... and pay their day to day bills with the borrowed money?





Pon·zi scheme      (pŏn'zē)  Pronunciation Key
n.   An investment swindle in which high profits are promised from fictitious sources and early investors are paid off with funds raised from later ones.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 08:42:05 AM by gregimotis »
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Offline gregimotis

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2008, 11:04:40 PM »
blah... blah... blah





No, really
I take you very seriou.... nice avatar.
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2008, 03:55:50 AM »

The banks run there business by borrowing against their future income... and pay their day to day bills with the borrowed money?


Not much different than the average American family when you think about it.
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2008, 07:07:02 AM »
Ok, maybe a simple example is in order:

The year is 2005.  Interest rates are low, housing prices are astronomical and seem to keep rising at an astounding rate.  Appraisals come back at ridiculously high values.

Bank opens up.

Customer A deposits $100,000 in a CD that pays a "guaranteed" 4%.

Customer B takes out a mortgage for a house that is appraised at $100,000.  He borrows $100,000 on an INTEREST ONLY LOAN and agrees to pay 6% interest.  This should raise a TREMENDOUS RED FLAG, but the bank has little concern because the appraisers claim that home values are increasing at 10% per year.

If all goes as everyone has agreed, the bank pays customer A his 4%, and pays its bills, salaries, etc. out of the other 2%.

Customer B does not fulfill his promise to pay the 6%.  In fact, he stops paying altogether.  Now the bank cannot pay customer A his "guaranteed" 4% without getting more income from another loan or spending depositor's money.

The bank must foreclose on customer B's house in order to try to pay customer A.

The bank tries to sell customer B's house.  Turns out that it is only worth $80,000 on the market in 2008.  Also, since customer B is a dead-beat, he wrecked the house before the bank could foreclose on it.  So, at auction the house sells for $50,000.

Now the bank is out the 4% on customer A's CD, plus they are out $50,000 on the $100,000 they loaned out, plus they are out the 6% that they were expecting on the loan to customer B.  So, the bank finds itself going bankrupt.

FDIC insures those CDs, so the bank could simply go bankrupt and the FDIC would have to cover the CD. 

The fed sees that this is happening a lot, and that they are going to have to pay off a whole lot of CDs.

The fed says "whoah!!!  Let's stem these losses", and gives the banks lower interest loans in order to get them to either refinance bad loans or to make new, GOOD loans, in the hopes that things will get better.

Some banks fail anyway.  The fed orders other banks to buy them out at low prices, and cover their depositors' CDs.

The other banks remain around.

Hopefully the cycle starts all over again soon and the price of real estate starts rising again.


So let me understand this:

The banks run there business by borrowing against their future income... and pay their day to day bills with the borrowed money?





Pon·zi scheme      (pŏn'zē)  Pronunciation Key
n.   An investment swindle in which high profits are promised from fictitious sources and early investors are paid off with funds raised from later ones.

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Offline grumpy

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2008, 07:18:28 AM »
We're bailing out the banks because the Walker family (as in George Herbert Walker Bush) and Prescott Bush were/are in investment banking. (Brown Brothers Harriman & Co., et. al)


Offline UnCrash

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2008, 07:18:57 AM »
Quote
Hopefully the cycle starts all over again soon and the price of real estate starts rising again.

Amen to that.

But lenders and policy makers have to stop some of the stupid and non-transparent things that got us in this mess, or we'll be in this hole in another 40 years.
You can't make too much popcorn, but you can definately eat too much popcorn.

Offline edbikerii

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2008, 08:43:43 AM »
That's what they said in 1929.  Then they passed all these regulations, made all these huge government agencies, raised taxes through the roof, etc.  Net result was that we still had business cycles.  Roughly every 10 years or so we still had recessions, despite all the regulations.  In fact, some of the regulations CAUSED the recessions.

Also, the regulatory stuff is cyclical, too.  People get sick of big government, excessive taxation, excessive regulation, and they vote in de-regulators.  Then ten years later they vote in regulators again because of some economic "crisis".

Collectively, people have short memories.  New generations of voters cannot imagine that their predecessors have seen all of this happen before, sometimes even several times.  They always think that they are smarter than those that preceded them.

Quote
Hopefully the cycle starts all over again soon and the price of real estate starts rising again.

Amen to that.

But lenders and policy makers have to stop some of the stupid and non-transparent things that got us in this mess, or we'll be in this hole in another 40 years.
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Offline gregimotis

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2008, 08:46:34 AM »

Not much different than the average American family when you think about it.

Which brings us around neatly to the other thread on the same subject:  "Where's my friggin' bailout?"
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Offline UnCrash

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2008, 09:16:24 AM »
Quote
Collectively, people have short memories.  New generations of voters cannot imagine that their predecessors have seen all of this happen before, sometimes even several times.  They always think that they are smarter than those that preceded them.

That's exactly why people build houses in floodzones too.
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2008, 09:30:32 AM »
Quote
That's exactly why people build houses in floodzones too.

And:

Areas prone to fire
Beachfronts in hurricane prone areas
Areas prone to earthquakes

and the list goes on.  ;)
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2008, 09:49:26 AM »
Franklin Roosevelt appointed Joe Kennedy and other notorius stock manipulators to draw up new regulations. They closed all of the loopholes and designed an orderly marketplace. The dereguators came in and reopened all those loopholes.

Now, does the average person have clean hands in all of this. No. If you have a 401K IRA, or invest in Mutual Funds. You went to funds that had higher yeilds. If you are a fund manager you had to deliver that, or your investors pulled their money out of that fund. You as the manger had to find ways no matter what to make those numbers. The investors did not care how. Many foreign Banks and even Governments jumped on the bandwagon and poured billions in these junk investments. Now these banks have turned to their governments for a cash infusion. Iceland is bankrupt, Norways state pension plan is in the red from this. Norway has a lot of oil, so they put the pumps in overdrive to stay solvent. It was not a few people who caused this mess, it was a lot of people suffering from one word. GREED.  
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2008, 10:50:23 AM »
And, let's not forget the people who borrowed too much money so they could live in McMansions and drive Mercedes Benzs.

I've got a neighbor who is a local town cop in NJ, but he's got an in-ground pool, TWO Suburbans (~3 years old now), added on a $200,000 master bedroom/bathroom addition & renovation to his four bedroom house (now 5 br + 4 baths), a 46" LCD, a Harley, a boat, an oak pool table.  In Bergen County New Jersey, less than 3 miles from Manhattan (relatively expensive area with a high cost of living).

Now his home is up for sale, and his wife cried to me the other day how they have to sell it for a certain amount just so they can cover the mortgage.

Funny, the cop inherited the house from his mother 15 years ago, WITH NO MORTGAGE.

They are really nice people, but I don't see why I should have to bail them out when my family and I have been living quite modestly in comparison.
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Offline 333

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2008, 12:48:13 PM »
Also, the regulatory stuff is cyclical, too.  People get sick of big government, excessive taxation, excessive regulation, and they vote in de-regulators.  Then ten years later they vote in regulators again because of some economic "crisis".

So, who's right?  The regulators or the de-regulators?  Oddly, I have been enjoying the fact that you and I have been in agreement in this thread, so don't F it up. ;D
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2008, 01:54:01 PM »
 ;D

Who is right?  Interesting question.

I personally favor de-regulation because the market is cyclical regardless of what regulations are made.  Regulations are always established AFTER THINGS HAVE ALREADY BLOWN UP, and they rarely result in any positive change in the economy.  Typically the new regulations are fashioned by political action committees and lobbyists in order to play favorites with the companies that donate the most money to the right candidates.  They also have that famous "knee-jerk" quality that makes them strongly weighted to fix the problems that has already blown up and no longer exist.

My biggest concerns regarding regulators revolve around Big Government, government corruption, the erosion of personal freedoms, human rights, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, etc., etc.

Having seen many scandals on Wall Street over the years, and a few recessions too, one thing I've learned is that there are lots of people out there just waiting for new regulations so that they can find and exploit the loopholes to the disadvantage of those who are less crafty.

De-regulating is also a huge misnomer.  There are, and will always be, laws on the books about fraud and corruption.  These laws need to be enforced.

However, all that being said, there were some regulations that were very positive, such as the Glass-Steagall Act that separated banking from investment banking.  Banking should be kept very simple.  Lenders should not be allowed to re-package loans and sell them to other investors.  They should follow simple banking models that are relatively hard to screw up, and involve no real risk.  Ratings agencies should not be determining how much money should be lent, and at what rates and risk tolerances.  Bank underwriters get paid to do that, and they should not have been hit with the pressure from the investment banking arms to increase revenues by selling loans more aggressively.

So, I guess my answer is, "it depends on the regulations".

Also, the regulatory stuff is cyclical, too.  People get sick of big government, excessive taxation, excessive regulation, and they vote in de-regulators.  Then ten years later they vote in regulators again because of some economic "crisis".

So, who's right?  The regulators or the de-regulators?  Oddly, I have been enjoying the fact that you and I have been in agreement in this thread, so don't F it up. ;D
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Offline Tower

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2008, 03:02:46 PM »
Simple banking is definitely the answer.  You may or may not recall that the three arms of "banking" (banks, insurance, investment) were kept legally separated for a reason.  There is conflict of interest otherwise. Deregulation and loosening of the existing regulations has done away with this separation.  So, now we have the predicament that @edbikerii describes.

However, to TT's original question: the borrow/lend cycle includes several other key players, not just the lender, bank and borrower anymore.  So it isn't just deposits and commodity collateral covering loans like it was in 1929.

Person A wants loan for $100K
Bank loans $100K at "prime+ plus its reserves.
Bank goes to Central bank and borrows $100K at "prime" minus, to replenish reserves.  The spread is profit on the loan.  The more the bank writes the larger the profit.

Person B deposits $10K
Bank borrows from depositor and pays a demand loan at "prime" minus minus.
In the past banks were required to have 50% reserves from deposits (cheapest form of borrowing for the bank).  Through easing of the regulations, today they require about 10%.  See the problem shaping up?

In this scheme, As long as 1 in every 3 borrowers paid, the bank made profits (67% defaults could be tolerated).  As a result of easing only 1 in 10 defaults could be tolerated.

Banks could not insure before.  Insurance is a bet.  Through deregulation, today they can.  This is real risk, unlike borrowing/lending on deposits.  To offset this real risk, banks took side bets against their own failure.  They wouldn't need to do this if their reserves were high enough, like the insurance companies are required to set aside.  Instead banks were allowed to use their deposit reserves when considering insurance reserves (Yes, required deregulation).  Suddenly only 1/3 defaults could be tolerated because some of the reserve was used to pay insurance risk (claims).  We're down to 1 in 30 defaults.  If the value of the insured items kept rising, then insurance premiums could keep rising to cover the additional exposure.  Do you see the next problem shaping up?

The third leg is investment.  This is even riskier than insurance.  No reserves are needed.  Investment brokerage relies on insurance in the form of bundled securities.  It sells these to banks.  If its already is a bank, it sells them to itself.  The buyer needs a reserve to handle the risk, but is not required to do so, because the paper purchased is not a "loan" or "insurance".  See the third problem shaping up?  Now the default tolerance is about 5-10% of the base, depending on how much investment risk the bank has purchased.  We are down to 1 in 200 to 1 in 300 tolerance for defaults.

Up to now, the leverage I've described had been based on reserve.  The final nail in this coffin is "creative" leverage.  Only investment houses could use other kinds of leverage, such as futures, puts, stays, and other "derivatives".  Derivatives (creative word for scary-a$$-risk bet) were nearly unlimited in the amount of potential loss and of course the flip side, obscene gains.  The loss or gain is not just the amount invested. but, usually 100 - 1000 times the amount invested, sometimes much more.  If you put your reserves on the line using derivatives you would need 100 - 1000x the amount purchased.  Deregulation helped banks avoid this problem by artificially "separating" the investment arms from the banking arms of banks (like drawing a line on the bedroom floor and saying to your spouse "you stay on your side and I stay on mine").  To offset this really scary risk, banks with the aide of rating agencies hid the real risk, and sold it off under the banner of "low risk" reinsurance.  As long as the gain-side kept materializing as commodities rose, this wasn't questioned too deeply.  This just spread the scary-a$$ stuff around the world and under cover.  In many countries this would be illegal.  It sure is unethical at the least. (Thank you American banks!). The final nail really just meant default tolerance on reserves went down to about 0.1% or lower. That is about 1 in 1000 loans could default before the banks started to draw on reserves.  Which meant that if you are using mortgage reserve as the only reserve, then only about 1 in 2000 to 1 in 20,000 defaults could be tolerated.

Since the mortgage is the key driver of this credit bubble and housing the key commodity everyone is betting-on.  As long as there was no reason for mortgage holders to default en masse, there was no problem.  The reason came when a little sanity exposed just how overinflated the housing commodity really was.  Unfortunately, defaults today are running at 4% (last I heard).  Which means the banks are bleeding off their reserves at 400-800x more quickly they can be replenished - this means bankruptcy, and all the cards come down. 

Footnote: My percentages may not be exact, but the key point is that with each step in deregulation the pressure on mortgages to shore up banks rose exponentially, exposing banks to huge losses should that one commodity ever fall.  Too much leverage against a purposefully hidden risk.

So how would you fix this?  With more deregulation? ::)
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 03:13:23 PM by Tower »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2008, 03:27:20 PM »
Thanks, Tower.  (I think). ::)

I've said it before.  But, the concept remains.

Clearly, I'm no financial wizard.

Engineering is far more fascinating, and since it is based on physical realities, easier to understand.  But, this finance stuff "spiel" reminds me of discussing "Virtual Memory" usage with a software engineer.  ;D
"So, let me get this straight.  You tell the computer it has 100 times the memory that it actually has, so it can point to, deposit, and retrieve data that has no real place to exist?   ...And the computer remains accurate?"
I think I know where the laid off software engineers went... into banking, insurance, and investment houses.

Cheers,



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billybobobrain

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2008, 04:59:02 PM »
How is it that no one can possibly conceive the possibility of this "Bail out" to be a front for consolidation of wealth!
Who owns the fed? JP Morgan chase Citicorp wells Fargo............... Blah Blah Blah. A why if that's the case did the fed drop their rate and US bank, Wells Fargo, Citi, chase, and the rest of the credit companies raise their interest rates on everyone? Its all a show.  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2008, 05:50:36 PM »
Well put Tower. TT you are correct banking is not the orderly universe Engineering is. They wired across the breakers and the whole thing melted down.
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But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline Tower

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2008, 06:54:44 PM »
Hahaha the makings of an interesting analogy... let's see...
 - cash is like voltage,
 - which makes The Fed a generator,
 - regulations are like resistors, maybe variable resistors, or perhaps switches
 - customers must therefore be the load (say, light bulbs)
 - reserves and savings located in credit instruments (GICs, bank accounts) are like capacitors with different cascade values,
 - other credit instruments are like batteries, longlasting ones (mortgages) and very short ones (credit cards)
 - insurance is like wire with different gauge
 - investments are like transistors, diodes, triodes etc. depending on how they are designed can either step-up voltage, block flow (return), etc.
 - derivatives are like transformers, puts (step-down), calls (step-up)
Wired all together its the banking system.

So, Bobby, you might be right: They replaced the old resistors with ones that couldn't handle the load, put a few transformers into the circuit that drew off too much current, and the whole thing blew when one of the capacitors stopped working! (sounds like a bad ignition system);D

billybobobrain

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2008, 07:12:53 PM »
Hahaha the makings of an interesting analogy... let's see...
 - cash is like voltage,
 - which makes The Fed a generator,
 - regulations are like resistors, maybe variable resistors, or perhaps switches
 - customers must therefore be the load (say, light bulbs)
 - reserves and savings located in credit instruments (GICs, bank accounts) are like capacitors with different cascade values,
 - other credit instruments are like batteries, longlasting ones (mortgages) and very short ones (credit cards)
 - insurance is like wire with different gauge
 - investments are like transistors, diodes, triodes etc. depending on how they are designed can either step-up voltage, block flow (return), etc.
 - derivatives are like transformers, puts (step-down), calls (step-up)
Wired all together its the banking system.

So, Bobby, you might be right: They replaced the old resistors with ones that couldn't handle the load, put a few transformers into the circuit that drew off too much current, and the whole thing blew when one of the capacitors stopped working! (sounds like a bad ignition system);D


Precisely. Exept the problems are being created by the rider in order to justify to the wife that he needs the new Dyna ignition.
Rider = fed
wife = Us


Offline edbikerii

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2008, 07:16:16 PM »
Excellent write-up Tower.  Very educational, and thorough.  My illustration was an attempt to keep things simple, a kind of 100 level course.  I think you've bumped it up to 300 level banking.

I only take issue with your characterization of all derivatives as "scary-ass-risk-bets".   There are a couple VERY dangerous derivatives (like selling naked put options), but there are also many very simple, very useful derivatives, buying simple call options instead of buying the stocks themselves, for example.  Options, used wisely, can actually help you elminate investment risk.  Heck, many derivatives are used to hedge investments such that you minimize the downside risk of owning a stock by also buying a put option that pays out if the stock drops, for example.
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2008, 10:39:44 PM »
TT,

I have "Virtual Memory" of how much "Virtual Money" my 401K once was worth and now I hope it's still worth what I actually put into it. 
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2008, 03:05:18 AM »
Excellent write-up Tower.  Very educational, and thorough.  My illustration was an attempt to keep things simple, a kind of 100 level course.  I think you've bumped it up to 300 level banking.

I only take issue with your characterization of all derivatives as "scary-ass-risk-bets".   There are a couple VERY dangerous derivatives (like selling naked put options), but there are also many very simple, very useful derivatives, buying simple call options instead of buying the stocks themselves, for example.  Options, used wisely, can actually help you elminate investment risk.  Heck, many derivatives are used to hedge investments such that you minimize the downside risk of owning a stock by also buying a put option that pays out if the stock drops, for example.

Personally, I would like to see all naked positions  banned.
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2008, 07:15:35 AM »
TT,

I have "Virtual Memory" of how much "Virtual Money" my 401K once was worth and now I hope it's still worth what I actually put into it. 
Jerry, that is the problem a lot of people face. If what you were holding went down 20% and it is solid stuff you have to hold and ride it out. If we moved everything into something really safe but with low yield, we cannot buy back into what we had when things turn around. We would be selling low and buying high.
If we are now down 20% and we hold, we still have to gain back the 20% before we see any growth. In short, if this takes 3 years to get back where we were, we wasted all that time.
This is not too bad f you are in your 20s, but when you get into your 50's you don't have as much time to recover. I was planning to semi retire in two years, that may not happen now.   
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2008, 08:09:05 AM »
Bobby, if you're only down 20%, you have done pretty well in the current climate.  :'(
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2008, 07:18:29 PM »
Bobby, if you're only down 20%, you have done pretty well in the current climate.  :'(
It may be more like 25% which hurts. I took on a kid as my FA a few years ago. I am like an honorary uncle to him. You and I are about the same age. He moved most of my 401K into more conservative bond funds a year ago. They went down a bit, most of the loss was in Stock Funds. We left a bit in the market, and that has been the bulk of the paper loss. I truly wanted to retire when I turned 60 and go part time somewhere. That may have to wait. We shall see Bob. I have no idea how or when this crap will shake out.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline edbikerii

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Re: Why do/did banks need a bailout?
« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2008, 07:38:27 AM »
Ha!  You guys think the market has been bad to you?  I got divorced about 19 months ago.

Stock market can't do #$%* to me. :'( :'(
SOHC4 #289
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