Topic: Cylinder Boring and honing

[crazypj]

Here's some pics of AMMCO hones, smaller one and big one  (they do an even smaller one but I don't have it)
 There are specialist honing set ups but this is dead nuts accurate if you take your time, all you need is a high torque low rpm drill (400 rpm max) A coolant pump set up in a tank would be nice but takes up quite a lot of space, I just oil things up , make a mess and take some time to let stuff get back to room temp before final finish.
 The block is another 800 kit I'm making for my Yamaha XS650.
 It's just the alloy before the liners are shrunk in. I have some pics of an XS400 DOHC block being bored to take Suzuki GS500 liners and pistons somewhere but can't find them, along with pics of crankcase being machined
 I will add more pictures as I find them or start on another engine ( waiting for parts at present)
PJ
Click on pics for link with explanations

[crazypj]

Here's a Yamaha XS400 DOHC cylinder I did to fit Suzuki GS500 liners and pistons, 6mm OS ( it was almost brand new 1mm over pistons GS500 block from e-bay)

If you click on small pic it will take you to photobucket where I put a description
 ( there isn't much worse than looking at pictures where you don't know what the hell is going on)

[Big Jay]

I had a boring machine like that when I first started APE 

Jay

[crazypj]

Hi Jay,
 Its a Winona-Van Norman, not mine, we got new ones in work a few years ago.
 I don't like it much, has pneumatic feeds, the bearings need constant adjustment, the tool holders don't hold size very well.
We used to have Boremasters but the company went out of business so can't get parts
PJ

[Big Jay]

Mine was no Winona-Van Norman. It was a Precision Something  made in Florida. Don't know who I sold it to. Boring with the bar coming out of the table was a real pain because it was so dificult to chamfer the bottoms and you couldn't o'ring with them.

We now have QuikWays.

[crazypj]

That's the Boremaster, made in Clearwater until they went out of business, great bar but you need a milling machine for the things they can't do. Horrible people to deal with as well, very arrogant and unhelpful in  my experience
PJ

[77honda]

I am about to bore out my CB750 cylinder, I have access to milling and boring machine at work
How much material do you leave in the sleeve to hone out, say if final bore size is 60mm what would you bore out too and then hone to final size.

 Thanks, Mike

[crazypj]

If your using a rigid hone, leave a least 0.003" (0.09mm?), depending on how your bore cuts.
 If its a smooth finish, round and parallel you can go to within 0.001" (0.025mm) of finished size but I prefer to have too much material rather than not enough.
 A 60mm bore should be finished at that size but its best to check pistons to make sure they are 59.96~59.97 mm
Are you using a cylinder bore gauge to measure or do you have some other high tech method?
 I use a 0.0001" bore gauge, set it to zero at finished size with a metric micrometer (that way I don't have to think too hard  ) Usually measure pistons, set mic undersized for boring (to set bore gauge) then set mic to piston plus clearance for finishing. I don't usually measure cylinders when done, the actual size is pretty unimportant as long as clearance is correct
PJ

[754]

Make SURE you Clock-in the head if you are using a Bridgeport type mill..

[Bodi]

clock-in?
do you mean mount a dial gauge in the spindle and centre the bore that way?

[754]

That too..

 On Vertical mils with adjustable angle heads, they often move a bit. So on any machine it will not hurt to check that spindle is 90 degrees to table.. correct if needed.... measure over width of table.

Never assume the head is right.

 When decking or surfacing however you do not want it perfectly dialed in, being out about 1/2 though from left to right gives a better cut.

[crazypj]

Sometime called tramming the head to make sure its 'square' on all axis.
You have an arm in /on spindle with DTI on the end to check.
PJ

[crazypj]

Terry,
 you said tou were going to use a drill press to hone cylinders,
I remember using an 'A' frame contraption with drill motor mounted to it and a big spring to  counterweight drill.
 It actually worked very well, you could feel torque change on tight spots
Sorry, no pictures.
PJ

[Terry in Australia]

Thanks PJ, I'm still pondering the "Drill Press" idea because with 7 or 8 bikes taking up most of the floor space in my garage/workshop, I've got bugger-all room to add another machine.

I'm so desperate, I'm waiting for my wife's nephew to come pick up a washing machine I gave him, so I will have somewhere for my "Brobo-Saw", ha ha!

I am keen to test out that Ammco 500 hone though, (plus I scored another Ammco hone from the same seller for 13 bucks.....) I'm boring/installing a 605cc kit for one of our members next week, so I won't have too long to wait for a worthy project.

I just ordered a 2 inch boring head like yours from Britain for my mill/drill, so I can bore my CB750 cases out for the GS1000 sleeves I'll use with my 1060cc MTC pistons. How do you "center" the boring head in the sleeve holes in the top crankcase before you bore them? Cheers, Terry.  

[754]

Use a dial-test indicator.

I use a holder for mine that is called INICOL that clamps on the spindle that is just amazing.

If you have trouble holing the case, try setting the main bores up on an aluminum rod on V-blocks, then levelling the case.

[MRieck]

Thanks PJ, I'm still pondering the "Drill Press" idea because with 7 or 8 bikes taking up most of the floor space in my garage/workshop, I've got bugger-all room to add another machine.

I'm so desperate, I'm waiting for my wife's nephew to come pick up a washing machine I gave him, so I will have somewhere for my "Brobo-Saw", ha ha!

I am keen to test out that Ammco 500 hone though, (plus I scored another Ammco hone from the same seller for 13 bucks.....) I'm boring/installing a 605cc kit for one of our members next week, so I won't have too long to wait for a worthy project.

I just ordered a 2 inch boring head like yours from Britain for my mill/drill, so I can bore my CB750 cases out for the GS1000 sleeves I'll use with my 1060cc MTC pistons. How do you "center" the boring head in the sleeve holes in the top crankcase before you bore them? Cheers, Terry.  

Put the 750 cylinder block on the case (with the dowels) and index center off the individual cylinders.

[crazypj]

Hi Terry,
 I use boring head with a piece of 3/8 keystock, holes drilled for lever arm dial indicator and lock screw. rough setup with X-Y axis then fit 0.0005" lever arm DTI to mill with lever down into opening.  (same setup I use for tramming)
 I also have a 3/4" bar that can be fitted to collet and use upright/clamps etc from magnetic base and standard DTI.
 Its not so critical for case boring, as long as you have ~0.010" clearance on spigot all around your good to go.
 If opening isn't round (has cutaways, etc) just set on the bits you can see, only needs 4 points 90 degrees to each other or as MRieck said, fit cylinders to dowels and set off that
 I like to set cylinder dead centered, unless there is a good reason for offsetting them.
 They still need centering first so you know exactly how much your offsetting (when I do extra large overbores  )
PJ

[Terry in Australia]

Hey thanks for that guys, good info. Also, how many thou under the cylinder sleeve OD should I bore the cylinder block? .003? Cheers, Terry.

[754]

Not under..over!! like 10 or 20 thou..


I used a 3/4 bar to hold my dialtest.. since I got my INDICOL (KBC sells them and knockoffs).. I never use the 3/4 bar in boring head any more..(takes way too long..

 way quicker with the indicol.. fits my lathe toolpost too.. very little you cant indicate with that rig...

[MRieck]

Not under..over!! like 10 or 20 thou..

Yeah....that's the ticket.

[754]

Smacking me in the head    


thought I read , sleeves into the cases..

[crazypj]

Hey thanks for that guys, good info. Also, how many thou under the cylinder sleeve OD should I bore the cylinder block? .003? Cheers, Terry.

 You need 0.003"~0.004" interference fit for liners
PJ

[Terry in Australia]

Hey thanks for that guys, good info. Also, how many thou under the cylinder sleeve OD should I bore the cylinder block? .003? Cheers, Terry.

 You need 0.003"~0.004" interference fit for liners
PJ

Thanks PJ, I'm glad at least one of you guys wasn't sniffing glue when you replied.............

[754]

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