Author Topic: Unidentified bolt problem  (Read 3029 times)

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Jamil20

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Unidentified bolt problem
« on: December 31, 2008, 10:53:40 am »
Hello, I've got a bit of a problem that may require some expert advice.

I was screwing around disassembling my engine, and did an incorrect bolt. It's not part of the oil pan, but part of the lower case(?). It's a bolt on the bottom of my engine case that I tried to remove, and it stopped threading, and won't thread back in. I had to cut it to get the engine out of the bike, but now I'm stuck with this stump that I don't know what the purpose of, why it won't thread or how I'm going to replace it.

I did this a while ago, but if I remember correctly, it was this one in the picture I attached.

Excuse my inexperience. I'm learning. :) Thanks.

« Last Edit: December 31, 2008, 10:58:06 am by Jamil20 »

WHALEMAN

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Re: Unidentified bolt problem
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2008, 11:06:59 am »
That is a main bearing bolt. It would not need to be removed prior to engine removal. It must be replaced before the engine is run. If the threads are messed up a helicoil can be installed. I bet the threads are not messed up all the way down. Dan

Jamil20

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Re: Unidentified bolt problem
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2008, 11:09:28 am »
How do I extract it? Does that require a full engine disassembly?

Offline MCRider

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Re: Unidentified bolt problem
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2008, 11:20:02 am »
How do I extract it? Does that require a full engine disassembly?
Yes, full disassembly, no way around it.

Actually, now that I think of it, not a full disaasembly. Short cut: You can turn it over and remove the bottom case. But the crank will still be in it, held in place by the cam chain. You must be way careful when fixing the main journal bolt.

That bolt is one of 10, you can see as you look. The whole gang is torqued in unison to hold the crankshaft solid. When you started loosening one without the others it likely bound up. Just guessing.

Time for an APE 1000CC with an APE crank?  :)

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Jamil20

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Re: Unidentified bolt problem
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2008, 11:27:43 am »
This problem is even worse than what I expected!

For an inexperienced guy such as myself, is this do-able, or does it look like a new engine in my future? On that same note, which option is 'easier'. Full dis-assembly or the short-cut? I'm just afraid the other bolts are going to get stuck as well.

BTW. What would be the harm in running the bike as is?

Also, what is the main journal bolt?

Offline MCRider

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Re: Unidentified bolt problem
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2008, 11:41:14 am »
This problem is even worse than what I expected!

For an inexperienced guy such as myself, is this do-able, or does it look like a new engine in my future? On that same note, which option is 'easier'. Full dis-assembly or the short-cut? I'm just afraid the other bolts are going to get stuck as well.

BTW. What would be the harm in running the bike as is?

Also, what is the main journal bolt?
Yeah, well its worse than having a spring pop out of a switch and fly across the room.

First, if you don't rely on this for transportation, and you have about $400 and the desire, it is doable by a novice. And this forum will step you through it. My guess is if you follow procedure in disassembly the rest of the bolts will come out fine.

If you run it as is, you'll likely ruin the engine and depending on where you are when it decided to puke, you could ruin yourself as well.

The main journals (emphasis on "main") are the points that support the crankshaft and the bearings that it spins in. There are 5 of them (hence the 10 bolts, 5 pairs). Others may explain it better but you get the idea. All 10 bolts must be there, firm and hardy, to hold the crank in line as its spinning at 8,000 rpm, up and down the power band.

The full disassembly, assuming you are going to the problem and nothing else, is not any harder than the short cut, just more steps and more expensive as you'll need to replace a few more parts, gaskets, etc. The "care" in the shortcut is that you'll be working close to the exposed crank and wouldn't want to ding it. You could probably shield it with a thin board or metal plate while doing you surgery on the bolt. Like working on n organ near a nerve. You don't touch the nerve, no problem. You touch the nerve, the whole operation is botched.

PS: You say you were disassembling the engine? So you were going to take it apart anyway?
« Last Edit: December 31, 2008, 11:47:04 am by MCRider »
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WHALEMAN

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Re: Unidentified bolt problem
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2008, 11:49:10 am »
How much is sticking out?  Where is it cut? Post a picture. There might be a small chance of a shortcut repair. Something like welding on something to turn it out. A picture will allow people to see the situation. Dan

Jamil20

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Re: Unidentified bolt problem
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2008, 12:11:18 pm »
PS: You say you were disassembling the engine? So you were going to take it apart anyway?

Yes, I had planned to disassemble it and reassemble it, but then I wasn't sure if I could do it myself if I can't even figure out how to take it apart. I got as far as taking the valve cover off, but then couldn't figure out how to take the valve train/cam chain off. Clymer was telling me to take the cam sprocket off, but those bolts were really tight and that usually tells me I'm doing something wrong, so I parked the idea and decided to put it back together(since it WAS running, but leaking oil from every gaskets).

I have another bike, so I don't need this bike this year. I was just hoping to get it out on the road come spring.


Jamil20

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Re: Unidentified bolt problem
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2008, 12:12:03 pm »
How much is sticking out?  Where is it cut? Post a picture. There might be a small chance of a shortcut repair. Something like welding on something to turn it out. A picture will allow people to see the situation. Dan

I can get you a picture as soon as I get home.

Offline MCRider

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Re: Unidentified bolt problem
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2008, 12:21:55 pm »
PS: You say you were disassembling the engine? So you were going to take it apart anyway?

Yes, I had planned to disassemble it and reassemble it, but then I wasn't sure if I could do it myself if I can't even figure out how to take it apart. I got as far as taking the valve cover off, but then couldn't figure out how to take the valve train/cam chain off. Clymer was telling me to take the cam sprocket off, but those bolts were really tight and that usually tells me I'm doing something wrong, so I parked the idea and decided to put it back together(since it WAS running, but leaking oil from every gaskets).

I have another bike, so I don't need this bike this year. I was just hoping to get it out on the road come spring.


Yeah cam bolts should be tight. You'll just need to bounce the problems off some people who know. We've all had a first time.

Also, Whaleman may be on to something.
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"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Jamil20

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Re: Unidentified bolt problem
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2008, 12:24:01 pm »
Well, the problem is that it backed out to a certain point and would go no further, but wouldn't back in again. It would just spin in the same spot forever.

It's definitely going to need a helicoil after what I tried to do to get it in or out.

Jamil20

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Re: Unidentified bolt problem
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2008, 01:31:34 pm »
Okay, I went to look at it, and it's not cut after all, but it's still spinning free. If I remember right, I tried to cut it but couldn't.


WHALEMAN

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Re: Unidentified bolt problem
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2008, 01:41:08 pm »
I just looked at that bolt pulled out of a scrap engine and I believe it is all the way out and with a stiff pull will come out. Jerk it out and if you need a new bolt I have extras. Just try pulling I bet it comes out. Picture of the bolt is attached so you can see the thread lenght. Dan

Offline shoemanII

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Re: Unidentified bolt problem
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2008, 01:45:41 pm »
the threads may be hung up on a gasket.  try turning/pulling out at the same time.
bobp
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Jamil20

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Re: Unidentified bolt problem
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2008, 01:46:39 pm »
I remember trying to pull while the engine was on the bike to no avail, but then I didn't have much leverage under the bike. I'll give her a tug when I have some time. Right now, I have to get gussied up for New Year's.

WHALEMAN

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Re: Unidentified bolt problem
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2008, 01:47:10 pm »
There is no gasket in this joint. Dan

Jamil20

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Re: Unidentified bolt problem
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2008, 01:47:56 pm »
the threads may be hung up on a gasket.  try turning/pulling out at the same time.
bobp

This doesn't explain why it won't thread in.

Offline goon 1492

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Re: Unidentified bolt problem
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2008, 01:48:44 pm »
I like MCriders advise and tear that baby down! ;D ;D Do a search for rebuilding the 750 and read as much as your eyes can handle before you get too far into it, then start your own thread on how you are going to do it show lots of pics(I/we like pics ;) ) while you go and ask as many questions as you desire........ I thought there was a thread titled rebuilding for dummies for the 750 but I couldn't find it now after doing a search.... Sucks too because I wanted to bookmark it for future reference when its my turn to tear down my 750 k6... Good luck and maybe someone else will find the thread I was talking about
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Jamil20

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Re: Unidentified bolt problem
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2008, 02:15:19 pm »
I like MCriders advise and tear that baby down! ;D ;D Do a search for rebuilding the 750 and read as much as your eyes can handle before you get too far into it, then start your own thread on how you are going to do it show lots of pics(I/we like pics ;) ) while you go and ask as many questions as you desire........ I thought there was a thread titled rebuilding for dummies for the 750 but I couldn't find it now after doing a search.... Sucks too because I wanted to bookmark it for future reference when its my turn to tear down my 750 k6... Good luck and maybe someone else will find the thread I was talking about


That's what I tried to do. Even created my own thread. But I need a 'rebuild for even dumberier people' thread.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=40980.msg422062#msg422062

Offline MCRider

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Re: Unidentified bolt problem
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2008, 05:12:17 pm »
the threads may be hung up on a gasket.  try turning/pulling out at the same time.
bobp

This doesn't explain why it won't thread in.
Its a tight fit. (Also a very hard bolt difficult to cut). It does look like you threadedit out clear of the threads. So you may need to push really hard while turning clockwise to get the threads to catch. It's running a hardened steel bolt into aluminum threads. Spray a little PB Blaster (like WD40 but much better), let it run in for 10 minutes, then put a socket wrench on it, push down really hard while turning slowly, I'll bet it catches.
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Offline goon 1492

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Re: Unidentified bolt problem
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2009, 09:20:43 am »
Can you press it down while back threading(reverse, like taking out) it, try that and you should feel it "click". As soon as you feel that then the threads should be lined up and you should be able to thread it back in then. This is also a good tip for all to take in consideration when threading bolts together. ;) I have had to assemble too many things in my short life and back threading first to line up threads is a must, much less cross threading.
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Jamil20

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Re: Unidentified bolt problem
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2009, 10:27:15 am »
I finally got a chance to play with it again, and after a bit of wiggling it threaded back in. Thanks guys. :)

Offline MCRider

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Re: Unidentified bolt problem
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2009, 10:57:15 am »
I finally got a chance to play with it again, and after a bit of wiggling it threaded back in. Thanks guys. :)

Great! I thought it would. Goon's advice, reverse till it "clicks", was good, whether you got it in time or not.

Now, Don't forget to torque it proper tightness...which is... 16.6 to 18.1 foot pounds. Multiply by 12 if your wrench is in inch-pounds. 199.2 to 217.2. I use 17.5 ft-lbs: 210 in-lbs.

Figure if you had a foot long wrench and you put 17.5 lbs pressure on it.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 10:59:25 am by MCRider »
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1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Jamil20

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Re: Unidentified bolt problem
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2009, 11:56:14 am »
Where do you guys get your torque figures? I tightened it to about 15ft-lbs according to my torque wrench.

Offline MCRider

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Re: Unidentified bolt problem
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2009, 12:11:16 pm »
Where do you guys get your torque figures? I tightened it to about 15ft-lbs according to my torque wrench.
From the Clymer Shop Manual. Give it another skosh.
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1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."