Author Topic: CB750 Oil Pump Inspection  (Read 18315 times)

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Offline MCRider

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CB750 Oil Pump Inspection
« on: January 03, 2009, 08:09:20 am »
I'll be disassembling 2 oil pumps and inspecting them for use in my project. One is from parts bike, probably sub 20k miles, the other from Phaedrus I and its earlier iterations likely 70k miles +.

I haven't even looked at the manual yet, I figured if I posted this now, by the time I get them cleaned and semi disassembled someone may have commented. Besides the obvious inspection of the rotating piston, any thing else I should look at and/or do?

I'll post some pictures. For any one who hasn't seen the trochoidal oil pump apart it is a marvel in my eyes. Akin to the Wankel, though in comon use these days, it is still cool to me.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750 Oil Pump Inspection
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2009, 08:46:12 am »
Things to look at:
1. The shaft seal. They are not available from Honda, if leaking. I have obtained some that are 0.5mm larger OD with the right ID, and am working on making a tool bit that will let me cut a new seat into the pump body to fit these new (off-the-shelf) seals. This will greatly improve the leakage situation on older pumps.
2. There is a large O-ring around the perimeter of the inside of the body. Make sure it is pliable and in good condition, or it leaks.
3. Look for scoring on the sides of the drive gear. The faces don't wear much if the screen is still in place, but the side tolerances get bigger and the bypass leakage cause loss of flow and pressure. I'm working on a solution for this, too, which involves milling off about .0002"-.0005" of the pump body and closes up the gap, while also polishing off the scratches on the gears.

The secondary side feeds the transmission with hot, scavenged crankcase oil, part of the return flow to the tank. Make sure the divider passage (where some of this oil goes to the tranny and the rest goes to the tank) is very clean.

Finally, replace the O-rings around the dowels on the baseplate. These get cooked brittle, then leak some of the pressure off, back into the crankcase.

I'm trying to figure out a good setup to test BEFORE/AFTER pressures and flows with these pumps. I have 6 of them, ranging from 17K miles to 130K miles of wear. I wish to create a "Pump Rebuild Service" for them, in the end, where I can refurbish them to like-new performance.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline voxonda

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Re: CB750 Oil Pump Inspection
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2009, 08:51:45 am »
I will be following this, have K6, K7, F1(850cc) & F2 engines. And want to be sure the pumps are in good order, or make them in good order.

cheers, Rob
Better sorry for failing then for the lack of trying.

Offline MCRider

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Re: CB750 Oil Pump Inspection
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2009, 07:48:51 pm »
Site's been running slow today, I want to get this question out there before something else happens.

I got my oil pumps apart today, well the rotors anyway. Parts bike shows lots of chunks out of the rotors, barely visible to naked eye but scary under the looking glass. Indicating dirty oil with bits in it?

Old Phaedrus pump (many miles) shows wear on rotors but few chunks missing. Indicating lots of use but usually clean oil.

In both cases the rotor clearances were measured in many places with feeler gauges per manual, all within tolerances. The parts bike a little looser in places than the old Phaedrus pump.

Are these pumps such overkill that they can be run with anyway? I'm seeing  rotors by themselves are not available, that's what the manual calls for as far as replacing.  Can't get a whole pump either? Not availabvle at Honda-Direct and Bike bandit.

What do the racer guys do about pumps? Clean them and run them?

Manual says remove the screen to disassemble the body. How the heck do you get the screens off without trashing them?

What say ye?  Pictures later.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2009, 06:33:35 pm by MCRider »
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Offline Bodi

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Re: CB750 Oil Pump Inspection
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2009, 04:59:33 pm »
There's no excellent reason to disassemble the body, and usually the screen gets destroyed (the rubber has turned to stone in 30 odd years) and the gasket (unavailable, but easy to make) will be ruined. The screws under the screen just attach the pump assembly to the bottom plate, and unless you are replacing the pump unit for some reason (since they are totally impossible to get new, you would usually have a complete pump assembly from a donor bike) don't bother undoing them.
The bigger rotor set pumps oil from the sump up to the oil tank, with some going to the transmission. The smaller set sends oil to the engine, fed from the tank. The big one usually has more damage, but is less critical. Even the small set can look fairly gruesome and still work OK. The end clearance and rotor-to-rotor clearance should be within spec.
The best test of whether it's working is a pressure gauge. I have never tested a new pump, but hope to see 40psi plus at operating temperature and RPMs. The relief valve operates at about 60psi, so cold pressure is usually 70+psi (the cold oil doesn't flow through the relief valve so well). Idle pressure with a hot engine is often in the 10psi range.
Clean the one-way valve and the relief valve, make sure the one-way works freely - they sometimes have some rough edges in the hole and tend to stick open which gives you a wet sump and empty oil tank when parked for a long time.

Offline MCRider

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Re: CB750 Oil Pump Inspection
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2009, 06:42:52 pm »
There's no excellent reason to disassemble the body, and usually the screen gets destroyed (the rubber has turned to stone in 30 odd years) and the gasket (unavailable, but easy to make) will be ruined. The screws under the screen just attach the pump assembly to the bottom plate, and unless you are replacing the pump unit for some reason (since they are totally impossible to get new, you would usually have a complete pump assembly from a donor bike) don't bother undoing them.
The bigger rotor set pumps oil from the sump up to the oil tank, with some going to the transmission. The smaller set sends oil to the engine, fed from the tank. The big one usually has more damage, but is less critical. Even the small set can look fairly gruesome and still work OK. The end clearance and rotor-to-rotor clearance should be within spec.
The best test of whether it's working is a pressure gauge. I have never tested a new pump, but hope to see 40psi plus at operating temperature and RPMs. The relief valve operates at about 60psi, so cold pressure is usually 70+psi (the cold oil doesn't flow through the relief valve so well). Idle pressure with a hot engine is often in the 10psi range.
Clean the one-way valve and the relief valve, make sure the one-way works freely - they sometimes have some rough edges in the hole and tend to stick open which gives you a wet sump and empty oil tank when parked for a long time.
Thanks for all that. I think I'll do as you suggest. Disassemble and clean the one-way and relief valves. Clean the rest up all i can and reinstall. Then check with oil pressure gauge. I think the pump is overengineered enough to tolerate some wear and still perform OK. Getting the screen out to go further seems impossible.

All the end clearance and rotor to rotor clearances are good. That is 4-5 thou with max at 7 thou. The unknown is what are these clearances on a new pump? Would be nice to know.

I'll take your and Hondamans suggestions. Maybe he can come up with a reconditioned pump someday, would at least make us feel better if not actually necessary.  There have been several pumps on eBay. i may start collecting them if cheap enough to compare clearances. Might find a low mileage gem.
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1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750 Oil Pump Inspection
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2009, 06:58:55 pm »
My "refurbish plan" will be to install new seals in the rotating areas and supply new O-rings for the dowels, along with a set-to-minimum-clearance dustoff of the internal clearances, where possible. If necessary, I can bore and re-bush the shaft holes, but I have not seen much wear there, so far. This stuff will all reduce the in-pump leakage. One thing that's kept me from it, so far, is that big screen seal situation. I may have to offer them with some sort of caveat about that.  ::)

One other thing to check: look at your oil pressure relief bolt in the oil filter. If it has been relieving pressure/flow from time to time, you will see movement marks where it compresses the spring and the piston slides up. If there are no marks anymore (like mine) then it is not developing sufficient excess flow. This generally indicates that it's not doing a good job on a hot day in heavy stop-and-stop traffic, and the engine will get balky from the extra heat.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline MCRider

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Re: CB750 Oil Pump Inspection
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2009, 07:19:38 pm »
My "refurbish plan" will be to install new seals in the rotating areas and supply new O-rings for the dowels, along with a set-to-minimum-clearance dustoff of the internal clearances, where possible. If necessary, I can bore and re-bush the shaft holes, but I have not seen much wear there, so far. This stuff will all reduce the in-pump leakage. One thing that's kept me from it, so far, is that big screen seal situation. I may have to offer them with some sort of caveat about that.  ::)

One other thing to check: look at your oil pressure relief bolt in the oil filter. If it has been relieving pressure/flow from time to time, you will see movement marks where it compresses the spring and the piston slides up. If there are no marks anymore (like mine) then it is not developing sufficient excess flow. This generally indicates that it's not doing a good job on a hot day in heavy stop-and-stop traffic, and the engine will get balky from the extra heat.
I am not finding OEM dowel Orings. Do you have them? and what "seals in the rotating areas" do you mean? I've seen only larger Orings for the 2 end covers.

I'll check the bolt.  Several pumps on ebay with "buy it now" sub-$25. Tempting to chance it. If nothing else, I'd have a cheapo to experiment with.
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: CB750 Oil Pump Inspection
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2009, 07:41:44 pm »
TTR400 has info/does 400 pump overhauls/upgrades. Don't know if any of this would apply to a 750.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750 Oil Pump Inspection
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2009, 05:43:12 am »
My "refurbish plan" will be to install new seals in the rotating areas and supply new O-rings for the dowels, along with a set-to-minimum-clearance dustoff of the internal clearances, where possible. If necessary, I can bore and re-bush the shaft holes, but I have not seen much wear there, so far. This stuff will all reduce the in-pump leakage. One thing that's kept me from it, so far, is that big screen seal situation. I may have to offer them with some sort of caveat about that.  ::)

One other thing to check: look at your oil pressure relief bolt in the oil filter. If it has been relieving pressure/flow from time to time, you will see movement marks where it compresses the spring and the piston slides up. If there are no marks anymore (like mine) then it is not developing sufficient excess flow. This generally indicates that it's not doing a good job on a hot day in heavy stop-and-stop traffic, and the engine will get balky from the extra heat.
I am not finding OEM dowel Orings. Do you have them? and what "seals in the rotating areas" do you mean? I've seen only larger Orings for the 2 end covers.

I'll check the bolt.  Several pumps on ebay with "buy it now" sub-$25. Tempting to chance it. If nothing else, I'd have a cheapo to experiment with.

I bought a bunch of the right size O-rings at a local seals outlet, Rocket Seals, in Denver. If  they don't have it in stock, it's rare: if it's made, they can get a minimun order size for $35. So, I got a bunch of $35 orders last summer from them.

There is a small oil seal on the shaft that runs through the pump. It's an odd size by -0.5mm, or about .020" undersized. To install the standard seal, a slight groove must be cust, about .010" to .020", into the pump pbody where that seal rests, so the standard seal can be clicked into place. Fortunately, the shaft IS a standard size, just the pump cutout was not, back then.

Between the 2 thin O-rings and this seal, most of the leakage out of the pump can be stopped: they get as hard as plastic over time, and leak. The sides of the rotors wear off the plates of the pump body and covers, generating internal leaks. This damage shows up as scored sides on the rotors and plates. This can be resized by cutting back the rotors slightly to reduce the volume of the pitting, then cutting back on the housing edges to space the cover closer again. The cover might need some thinning, too, or a new one can be made or substituted in.

The flow is nearly linear: if you narrow the rotor 1%, the flow drops 1%. But, since they are already much more worn than this, and leaking, the net result is an INCREASE in flow and pressure. This has been done in car engines since I was a kid, and works very well. Today, of course, you can just go out and buy most car pumps: it wasn't like that in the 1950s and '60s.

Fortunately for us all, Honda was overly concerned with oil flow in these engines, and the pumps oversupply considerably. On midget racer engines I saw in the early 1970s, two in particular, that were made from the 750 Honda, both used the stock oil pump (sans transmission), driven from a machined takeoff on the cam. This is only 1/2 crank speed, at the resulting pressure was over 100 PSI. The second engine had a 2:1 gearbox arrangement fitted to the pump end, fed from the main galley on the back of the engine, and ran about 60 PSI. Both were faster than the stock engine runs the pump, as it is driven by a 4.(something):1 stepdown from the primary drive, off the kickstarter gear.

My only slowdown so far in making these reburb pumps available is: I'm an engineer. I won't sell them to someone until I have a fixture where I can do a "before & after" measure of the improvements, and sell something tangible...  ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline MCRider

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Re: CB750 Oil Pump Inspection
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2009, 07:12:06 am »
My "refurbish plan" will be to install new seals in the rotating areas and supply new O-rings for the dowels, along with a set-to-minimum-clearance dustoff of the internal clearances, where possible. If necessary, I can bore and re-bush the shaft holes, but I have not seen much wear there, so far. This stuff will all reduce the in-pump leakage. One thing that's kept me from it, so far, is that big screen seal situation. I may have to offer them with some sort of caveat about that.  ::)

One other thing to check: look at your oil pressure relief bolt in the oil filter. If it has been relieving pressure/flow from time to time, you will see movement marks where it compresses the spring and the piston slides up. If there are no marks anymore (like mine) then it is not developing sufficient excess flow. This generally indicates that it's not doing a good job on a hot day in heavy stop-and-stop traffic, and the engine will get balky from the extra heat.
Mine shows the marks on the side of the rotor and the end caps you decribe.

so, I need Orings. and the rotor side work, and inspect the oneway and relief valves.

Are you interested in using me as a guinea pig and refurbish a pump for me? Realizing that it's probably overkill, a good used pump would probably be fine, I like the sound of "Yeah I had an oil pump refurbished by Hondaman" for my project. I'd be willing to pay up to what a new pump would cost if i could get one, $160 or so. I can provide an exchange pump. If you're more comfortable doing so, take this off forum to PM.

You can leave the big screen untouched, I'll vacuum out any crud.  :)   I don't care if you have your before and after comparisons, but if this helps to have a paid for guinea pig, use mine. Let me know. I'm ready to move today.
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750 Oil Pump Inspection
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2009, 06:30:20 pm »
I won't be set up to do the first machine work on one until early March, when I'll have access to a mill. I'm going to do 2 or 3 of the 6 pumps I have., hoping to "feel my way" into it on the first two. Then, I'll have some extra rotors, but might have a ruined pum pase or two, we'll see. Practice makes perfect, ya know....then, I could swap one, like a car rebuilder shop does, with you: send me and old one and I'd send back a "refurb".

I'm not a great machinist, but get to work on some nice equipment with advice and kibitzing from some EXCELLENT machinists who are my friends (and owe me!). That's how I learned to lathe. I've done some mill projects: I know my weakest point is in the setup of odd-shaped objects like these. I am going to have to build a cradle that can be either shimmed or adjusted to present the open body face(s) square to the mill, then it's a no-brainer. The first part here is where I need their help.  ;)  One of them thinks I can make such a fixture to run it on my lathe: that would be ideal. I need a good slide for that one...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline MCRider

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Re: CB750 Oil Pump Inspection
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2009, 08:09:39 am »
I won't be set up to do the first machine work on one until early March, when I'll have access to a mill. I'm going to do 2 or 3 of the 6 pumps I have., hoping to "feel my way" into it on the first two. Then, I'll have some extra rotors, but might have a ruined pum pase or two, we'll see. Practice makes perfect, ya know....then, I could swap one, like a car rebuilder shop does, with you: send me and old one and I'd send back a "refurb".

I'm not a great machinist, but get to work on some nice equipment with advice and kibitzing from some EXCELLENT machinists who are my friends (and owe me!). That's how I learned to lathe. I've done some mill projects: I know my weakest point is in the setup of odd-shaped objects like these. I am going to have to build a cradle that can be either shimmed or adjusted to present the open body face(s) square to the mill, then it's a no-brainer. The first part here is where I need their help.  ;)  One of them thinks I can make such a fixture to run it on my lathe: that would be ideal. I need a good slide for that one...
OK, I'll be waiting to hear, I'm sure you'll post your progress.

In the meantime, I'll screw one of mine together to use if I need to before you're up and running. I can always swap it out later.

I just bought one off eBay for $5! + $8 S&H. Supposedly from a 1978 CB750F with 22k miles. I figure its a 50/50 bet I'll get one that looks better than ones I have. I may buy a few more like this just to have the cores. Maybe experiment with taking the screens off. But it sure looks impossible, maybe unnecessary. No point in my ruining a screen if you're going to learn how yourself.
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Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline MRieck

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Re: CB750 Oil Pump Inspection
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2009, 08:25:51 am »
Things to look at:
1. The shaft seal. They are not available from Honda, if leaking. I have obtained some that are 0.5mm larger OD with the right ID, and am working on making a tool bit that will let me cut a new seat into the pump body to fit these new (off-the-shelf) seals. This will greatly improve the leakage situation on older pumps.
2. There is a large O-ring around the perimeter of the inside of the body. Make sure it is pliable and in good condition, or it leaks.
3. Look for scoring on the sides of the drive gear. The faces don't wear much if the screen is still in place, but the side tolerances get bigger and the bypass leakage cause loss of flow and pressure. I'm working on a solution for this, too, which involves milling off about .0002"-.0005" of the pump body and closes up the gap, while also polishing off the scratches on the gears.

The secondary side feeds the transmission with hot, scavenged crankcase oil, part of the return flow to the tank. Make sure the divider passage (where some of this oil goes to the tranny and the rest goes to the tank) is very clean.

Finally, replace the O-rings around the dowels on the baseplate. These get cooked brittle, then leak some of the pressure off, back into the crankcase.

I'm trying to figure out a good setup to test BEFORE/AFTER pressures and flows with these pumps. I have 6 of them, ranging from 17K miles to 130K miles of wear. I wish to create a "Pump Rebuild Service" for them, in the end, where I can refurbish them to like-new performance.

 If you're only taking off a few tenths why not just figure 8 lap the body on a piece of glass with a piece of 320 wet/dry taped to it. Setting up to remove that little is a pain and you better have a tight mill.
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline mec

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Re: CB750 Oil Pump Inspection
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2009, 01:12:20 pm »
hello,

use an oil pressure gauge (temporarely) to see whats going on in your engine (warmed up engine required). the oil pump has an overflow-valve that opens when the oil pressure exceeds a specified pressure. maybe your pump is good enough to open this valve.
maybe oil with a higher viscosity helps.

otherwise an overhaul of the pump can be done nevertheless.

mec
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Offline Kevin D

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Re: CB750 Oil Pump Inspection
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2009, 02:31:35 pm »
Quote
Maybe experiment with taking the screens off. But it sure looks impossible

 Not at all impossible. Get your smallest jewellers screwdrivers and gently lever the edge out. Its kinda like changing a tire, but way easier.

I have a couple of oil pump pics in my Gallery from last winters teardown, not necessarily pertinent to what you're doing but might be worth a look just the same. FWIW I got the dowel o-rings (15x2.5, 91302-377-000, $2.93 each, ouch) from Honda and the big 46x2s from a helpful SOHC'er. The one at the back of the leak stopper plate and the ones at the oil hose fittings are also 15x2.5.

Also, I have roughed up rotors in my oil pump. I dug some foreign material out of the deepest gouge, yecch. No pics to show of that, and I don't run an oil pressure gauge to have before and after readings, boo hoo. Certainly its a candidate for improvement.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: CB750 Oil Pump Inspection
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2009, 04:08:50 pm »
Quote
Maybe experiment with taking the screens off. But it sure looks impossible

 Not at all impossible. Get your smallest jewellers screwdrivers and gently lever the edge out. Its kinda like changing a tire, but way easier.

I have a couple of oil pump pics in my Gallery from last winters teardown, not necessarily pertinent to what you're doing but might be worth a look just the same. FWIW I got the dowel o-rings (15x2.5, 91302-377-000, $2.93 each, ouch) from Honda and the big 46x2s from a helpful SOHC'er. The one at the back of the leak stopper plate and the ones at the oil hose fittings are also 15x2.5.

Also, I have roughed up rotors in my oil pump. I dug some foreign material out of the deepest gouge, yecch. No pics to show of that, and I don't run an oil pressure gauge to have before and after readings, boo hoo. Certainly its a candidate for improvement.
I have a nice set of jewelers screwdrivers and almost started, but didn't know what I would end up with so I stopped. You imply you have done this? And that's all there is to it? They are just a friction fit with the fat ORing? I'll heat them with a hair dryer, maybe use some PB Blaster. Is that necessary or will they just pry out?

Now that I will soon have another one for $12 I'm a little more prone to experiment.

Whats in your picture gallery? Let us know and give a link please.

The ORings were listed as unavailble at some OEM suppliers, but I'll keep looking.

I'm high bidder on another eBay pump for $10. I may buy them all, corner the market like the Hunt brothers did with silver.   ::)
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750 Oil Pump Inspection
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2009, 06:02:25 pm »
Things to look at:
1. The shaft seal. They are not available from Honda, if leaking. I have obtained some that are 0.5mm larger OD with the right ID, and am working on making a tool bit that will let me cut a new seat into the pump body to fit these new (off-the-shelf) seals. This will greatly improve the leakage situation on older pumps.
2. There is a large O-ring around the perimeter of the inside of the body. Make sure it is pliable and in good condition, or it leaks.
3. Look for scoring on the sides of the drive gear. The faces don't wear much if the screen is still in place, but the side tolerances get bigger and the bypass leakage cause loss of flow and pressure. I'm working on a solution for this, too, which involves milling off about .0002"-.0005" of the pump body and closes up the gap, while also polishing off the scratches on the gears.

The secondary side feeds the transmission with hot, scavenged crankcase oil, part of the return flow to the tank. Make sure the divider passage (where some of this oil goes to the tranny and the rest goes to the tank) is very clean.

Finally, replace the O-rings around the dowels on the baseplate. These get cooked brittle, then leak some of the pressure off, back into the crankcase.

I'm trying to figure out a good setup to test BEFORE/AFTER pressures and flows with these pumps. I have 6 of them, ranging from 17K miles to 130K miles of wear. I wish to create a "Pump Rebuild Service" for them, in the end, where I can refurbish them to like-new performance.

 If you're only taking off a few tenths why not just figure 8 lap the body on a piece of glass with a piece of 320 wet/dry taped to it. Setting up to remove that little is a pain and you better have a tight mill.

I thought of that, but as I do have access to excellent mills, I'll probably start there, then find out how far off I can go and still get the results I'm hoping for afterward. My lathe is good for .0004" on a warm day, so if I can make a good fixture, it would be worth the trouble in the end.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Kevin D

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Re: CB750 Oil Pump Inspection
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2009, 07:51:18 pm »
There is an interlocking lip between the pump body and the rubber lip of the screen that you have to pry, IIRC. Yes, I did it one time, successfully. Heat and lube should help.

Link to gallery pics below in signature, oil pump is on page 2 of gallery.
71 CB750 K1
104,000 miles
Original Owner
———past———
70 SL100/125/150
70 Candy BlueGreen CB 750 K0
————————————————-
Former Honda parts kid/counter kid/do all
—————————————————————-
Whether you think you can or think you can’t, you’re right
Genius is 99% perspiration, 1% inspiration

Offline MCRider

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Re: CB750 Oil Pump Inspection
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2009, 09:03:43 pm »
There is an interlocking lip between the pump body and the rubber lip of the screen that you have to pry, IIRC. Yes, I did it one time, successfully. Heat and lube should help.

Link to gallery pics below in signature, oil pump is on page 2 of gallery.
Thanks its good to know what I'm up against. When I get it out. I'll use some rubber renew on the seal. Post pictures too.

Thanks for the gallery, very nice, I went through the whole thing. YOu mentioned "botched oil relief valve" What was botched about it? I'm psyched now. How's your engine paint holding up, did you bake it? TIA I really appreciate the feedback.

FYI: My screen had about that much debris on it as well. Mostly threads of silicone that I used as case sealer when I built it years ago. Big mistake, should use 3 bond snot. I was real lucky it nver caused trouble.
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline CB750F2

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Re: CB750 Oil Pump Inspection
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2009, 03:13:40 am »
MCRider and Hondaman. The small seal used in the oil pump may still be available. The part number has changed a number of times. The same seal was used in the early Gold Wings so if you use that part number your Honda parts supplier should be able help you. I was able to purchase three of them early last year in this manner. Hopethis helps, Pat
Regards
Pat from Australia

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750 Oil Pump Inspection
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2009, 05:25:27 am »
MCRider and Hondaman. The small seal used in the oil pump may still be available. The part number has changed a number of times. The same seal was used in the early Gold Wings so if you use that part number your Honda parts supplier should be able help you. I was able to purchase three of them early last year in this manner. Hopethis helps, Pat


Wow, Pat, that's great news! I'll try it today. It's not a standard size: it's 0.5mm smaller than standard sizes. Thanks!  :D
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Online bryanj

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Re: CB750 Oil Pump Inspection
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2009, 06:38:26 am »
there are two seals shown in the gl1000 oil pump

(1) 91207-580-015----10x25x7

(2)91208-300-003----no sizes given

The second one does not even show in my very early 750 parts book that even gives individual part numbers for the carb !O! rings.

That second number modifies to
91208-MN1-771 and is 11x15x3

Fits GL up to 1800; NRX 1800; NX 650 and XR 600/650

(all that from the Motogrid link i keep giving!
« Last Edit: January 15, 2009, 06:48:32 am by bryanj »
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline MCRider

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Re: CB750 Oil Pump Inspection
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2009, 07:15:05 am »
there are two seals shown in the gl1000 oil pump

(1) 91207-580-015----10x25x7

(2)91208-300-003----no sizes given

The second one does not even show in my very early 750 parts book that even gives individual part numbers for the carb !O! rings.

That second number modifies to
91208-MN1-771 and is 11x15x3

Fits GL up to 1800; NRX 1800; NX 650 and XR 600/650

(all that from the Motogrid link i keep giving!

"carb" Orings? Did you mean pump?
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

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Re: CB750 Oil Pump Inspection
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2009, 09:03:24 am »
No i was talking about all the "O" rings that are only listed in a carb overhaul set now but if you can get an extremely early parts book  it shows numbers for ALL the individual parts-----never did show the big oil pump "O" ring though---sorry
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!