Topic: kiss the 1100 goodbye

[SteveD CB500F]

The 919 ("Hornet" over here) didn't sell too well in UK as it was always percieved as an expensive Bandit.

It's discontinued for the CB1000R now - do you get those?

[nickjtc]

Can't remember if this was ever posted, but here is a previous neo-retro 750, from 2000.

[bzr]

So wait a minute. They're saying Honda is unwilling to certify the well-received CB1100 for America, at the same time they're building yet another factory chopper, the Fury? Just in time to ride the tailend of the chopper phenomenon? Hell, how well did the Harley Rocker sell exactly?

Triumph has a retro bike, the aforementioned Moto Guzzi has one, Ducati has its incredibly sexy SportClassic, inspiring many a kidney to be sold on the black market. Why can't Honda, with its huge successes in America and plenty of people with fond memories of the 750 (gee, wonder where THOSE guys are huh?) capitalize on this? Call it retro, sure, but Triumph doesn't have the Bonnie, Thruxton, and Scrambler for nothing: people who want bikes that remind them of younger times, and even weirdos like me who wish they could have been around back then (beating up mods at Brighton, maybe).

Honda's US lineup sucks. With the exception of the CBR, the squid's special, it seems like everything else is pretty derivative. Their only standard is the ancient, drum-braked Nighthawk? Why no adventure tourer? Even KTM has one of those. Why not a decent beginner bike like Kawasaki and how they transformed the Ninja 250 into something sexy? At least the DN-01 is kinda cool-looking and innovative, but it's still expensive for those who want a bigger scooter. Sure, America isn't burdened with CC caps like England has with their convoluted bike licensing regulations (from this American's view, anyway), but that doesn't mean there's no room for some small standards for nice people to meet each other on.

As for Moto Guzzi, I nearly bought a Le Mans II basket case as my restoration project, because some Danish guy said it would be a good idea. I'd probably be dead somehow if I had, but I still want to experience the joys of Italian ownership someday...

And I want a Super Cub, dammit!

[Joel]

With the recent volatility of gas prices, it seems to me that smaller displacement bikes would be growing in popularity as people might move from cars or even larger bikes to find something with better gas mileage.

[Ecosse]

bzr i'm with ya all the way. honda in its infinite wisdom is missing the boat- so to  speak. the success of the offerings from other brands can't be ignored; is honda the only smart one while all the other guys are the ones with inept marketing stiffs? 


btw nickjtc that bike is very sharp.

[Ichiban 4]

I think Nickjtc & 754 are on the right track regarding reasons that the 1100 & 919..are not considered "market practical" by Honda..
in that there's simply not enough of a potential market/sales in the U.S.

When in Japan..and talking to bike people there (@ Honda..Kawasaki, et al.)..they have much the same geographical and demographic conditions as in Europe..smaller country(ies), shorter distances, narrower roads, etc.  And as Nickjtc pointed out from 60's mags..they really didn't build larger displacement bikes for their own domestic market.  They still don't.  50cc to 250 cc are in abundance (used mainly for local transportation..rather than sport riding).  The "nanahan" 750-4 was built, developed primarily for U.S and Western markets.  The Gold Wing also.

In Japan..you cannot get a bike license to ride anything larger than what you can pick up off of it's side on the ground (don't know exactly how they test for that).  For this reason..you rarely see women riding bikes larger than about 250 cc's (not to be sexist about it..that's just the way it is over there).

Of course..when getting into the racing/competition aspect..the bikes get quite large/powerful.  But that's not the main sales market..but rather the promotional aspect for the bike companies.

It's interesting too..that the big cruisers and V-Twins have never been big in Japan (or most East Asian countries it seems).  They seem to be mainly a Western..and particularly U.S. phenomenon. (Would venture also that this is one reason HD/big twin owners here are so protective of their marques..in that THIS is the only significant market for them).  We also have the roads and spaces here to effectively accommodate the larger, heavier bikes..as mentioned.

There are a LOT of 60's 70's homologue's in Japan.  They love the naked bikes there.  I wish we could get more of them here (like 90 to 125cc OHC racer/homologue's, etc.). In fact..next to scooters..which outnumber the actual motorcycles..(except maybe Honda Cubs)..you rarely see the "crotch rocket"/fully fared bikes there much.  Going down what are essentially one-lane roads with traffic stopping to let cars come from the other direction..blind corners/intersections @ about every few hundred yards..little or no banking/engineering of turns on rural roads..all are not very conducive to large, heavy, fast bikes. Again..transportation and utility seem to come first; sportiness and performance second.   

There's a fringe group of Japanese..Harley bobber/chopper aficionados (like Chica in L.A., etc.)..but they are about as mainstream as rap music type bands..meaning not very prominant.  The big Japanese cruisers sold here..as mentioned previously in this thread..are mainly made for the American market.

Something else that we seem to forget in the West (@ least I did..until travelling to other older, established countries..especially Japan)..is that they developed their town and cities LONG before motorized vehicles..so their roads are often not the most practical in terms of "rapid transit".  As a result..their main forms of rapid transportation are not cars and motorcycles..but rather trains, subways and public transportation.  This may become more common for us as an alternative in the West..U.S. especially..if car use and highway maintenence continue to shrink.

I'd like to see one of the retro-Honda 750's being marketed/sold in the U.S..because I feel they not only look good..but are a practical alternative to either the crotch rockets..or the big tourers.  But until there's more of an interest in them (Honda especially does extensive market research before developing new models for the U.S. market..I know)..I don't think were going to see many of them here.  If I may suggest: The 919 was simply too big/powerful for the market they were appealing to (the Honda dealer I talked with said that customers would return them because they said they were "more than they could handle")..likewise with the 1100..I would guess.  I think that the "gaga" factor for cruiser/Harley look a likes here will fade in time (there will always be the die-hard fanatics..I'm sure)..perhaps sooner rather than later..given the depressed economic conditions predicted.  THEN..maybe the retro 70's-80's naked bike look will become more attractive..especially if they remain more reasonably priced than the absurd prices on new Harley's, etc.

Ichi

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Man, that  is a good looking motorcycle. Probably a b#gg@r to clean, but what the hey!

I'm in the process of clearing out my 'stuff' and have been reading through my old magazines. In a "Cycle" (remember that one?) from 1966 the biggest bike on test was the newly launched Honda CB450. The rest of the mag was full of ads and reviews for bikes up to 250 from all kinds of obscure manufacturers. And in several of the ads the manufacturer is describing their 250 as a 'tourer'.

Did riders not want to go distances in those days? Was the popularity and huge variety of models because these smaller bikes were so much less expensive than the Harleys, Triumphs, BSAs or what-not?

My biggest regret about todays whole North American 'bigger must be better' ideology is that as an instructor I see novice riders jumping on machines that are totally inappropriate for their riding skill. I am quiet impressed that the new Ninja 250 has proven to be the big seller it is.

[fastbroshi]

   I don't want to believe it until I hear it reported that Honda, not some twat at a bike show, says they're not bringing it here.  I want this bike so bad.

[Ecosse]

Honestly, I believe earlier points made about what influences whether or not something is brought to market, and where, are quite valid. But one still can't dismiss other manufacturers don't seem to agree with those apparent conclusions of Honda Kawasaki, Yamaha. Now, there could be any number of reasons for that disagreement; one reason may be people who tend to be Triumph customers may be more inclined to buy a 'traditional' bike, same with Moto Guzzi, Ducati, and one could argue even (Harley) Sportster.

But what that tells me is that the genre is not dead, just imaginative marketing.

As I said before I think it's a slightly complex matter and not one incapable of shifting possibly in the foreseeable future.

[HavocTurbo]

Honestly, I believe earlier points made about what influences whether or not something is brought to market, and where, are quite valid. But one still can't dismiss other manufacturers don't seem to agree with those apparent conclusions of Honda Kawasaki, Yamaha. Now, there could be any number of reasons for that disagreement; one reason may be people who tend to be Triumph customers may be more inclined to buy a 'traditional' bike, same with Moto Guzzi, Ducati, and one could argue even (Harley) Sportster.

But what that tells me is that the genre is not dead, just imaginative marketing.

As I said before I think it's a slightly complex matter and not one incapable of shifting possibly in the foreseeable future.

While I agree with you bill....

It all boils down to money. In the end no matter what, H K and Y aren't going to make a standard because it will not sell anywhere near as well as the huge billet cruisers and MotoGP clone sportbikes do. Suggestive marketing over the last few years has strayed more and more away from sporty economical bikes into these rolling cut up hunks of aluminum and chrome plating.

Something to keep in mind when you look at the pricetags. Of course harley can charge 20k+ because they have been making the same thing year after year. Repeat customers with satisfaction will bring in huge amounts of $$ when marketed right. Something I certainly believe they had a hand in when creating all these "chopper" shows on tv. Notice you don't see anyone using foreign motors in these shows? Something anyone whos anyone will use even if only in the name of saving initial overhead.

What with the huge growth of "american chopper" and "biker build off" and jesse james' franchises.... Of course we are in the trend of giant rolling dick meters. Same as with SUV's and soccer moms. That mentality of I have the biggest and baddest around so get out of my way!! - Notice a trend here? Welcome to America. Where we do it big...... especially in Texas...... evidently.

And in keeping with that bigger is better tradition...... Small sporty and economical just aren't IN right now. Maybe when gas gets to be around $10 a gallon will people realize that sporty and economical can be fun. I personally think that a renewed 750 might be a good thing to move away from the god awful oversaturation of HD clones. Not that I don't like HD.

Sure there are the rare cases like K's 250Ninja and the Italian squad of retro remakes. But if you step away from all my BS and look with an unobstructed point of view....

2 things make money here in the west... And a lot of it.

20 foot long billet bulging chrome and flat paint contrasting fuel burning HD's and their clones.

AND

Fast and furious plastic wrapped speed spewing sportbikes.

Plain and simple.

[tramp]

i agree
though sohc4 is a great forum, we are a very small number compared to harley and sport bikes
the old honda sitting position and design is old and outdated
it's like asking the auto companies to bring back the 38 coupe
nice car,won't sell enough to make a profit

[bill440cars]

      Not that he needs it, but I'd like to back up what Ichi was saying. I was stationed in Japan, when the 750 made it's debut and one of the guys on the base got one that he had to order from the States! Over there, it seemed like most folks who rode, had a 125 or smaller (and most were smaller, like 50 -90cc and I think that most were 50cc at that). And out on the motocross tracks, the largest I remember seeing were the 125's. They would just grab a handfull of throttle and hang on! While the Americans were mostly riding 250's with a varying amount of throttle. Sadly, we have missed out on some of those models and most likely always will.

[fastbroshi]

Ah Havoc,

  I believe you are my brotha from another motha.  I felt like saying exactly what you typed last night but was too tired.  Hey, it was like 3 or something!!
  But I agree, it's as if Honda thinks they spent enough money designing and developing the 1100f so far and don't want to lose or "waste" money over here selling it.  For shame,  there's something to be said for cult cars and their ilk.  So they don't always make the bean counters happy, but I'm sure they affect everyone subliminally that's ever seen/rode/owned one into thinking down the line. "That Honda, they take some risks.  That's daring.  I like daring.  I like Honda."  Oversimplified psychobabble, I know. 
  Hell, they'll bring us something like the Rune, but not the 1100??  Do they think all we ride is friggin Harley's and 600RR's?  Lemme guess, Honda.  We were the only country to get the Rune, right?
  It was brought to us very limited numbers, but I know they didn't sell 1% as many Runes as they did 600RR's it's last year in production.
  And about the comment on the 919 being dead:  Seemed like a great little bike, never rode one, but I saw one option that it had going for it; it was available with a center stand!  Alright everybody, calm down and sit down, I know you wanna go get the last ones, but I'm almost done.  Even though that bike is/was a standard, it still featured these key traits that didn't necessarily separate it from the pack enough to get noticed. 

  1.  Crappy exhaust.  True it's a decent looking 4-2 from 10 feet away, but closer inspection reveals the cans are hidden under what seems to be the real mufflers under some shrouds.  Obvious penny pinching on a $9,000 bike, not cool Honda.  They know better
  2.  Liquid cooling, not necessarily a bad thing, but just like every bike out there.
  3.  One color it's last year.  Not really trying.
  4.  Looks.  Not bad, but it didn't stand out from the fzr's and sv650's of the world.
  5.  Like what we've heard about it earlier, sucky marketing. 
  I didn't even know about the 919 until I saw one on the web.  Look at Hondas website.  This is the new version, I didn't see it like this a while back.  http://powersports.honda.com/2009/cbr600rr.aspx 
I think the 919 definitely would've benefited from a showcase like this.  And dealers never had them.  I know, I looked.  Maybe not in the right places. 

[tramp]

i wonder what used 919's are going for?

[754]

Would it REALLY KILL THEM to make a bike with a kicker..?

Here is what I never liked about Japanese bikes..

They always thought new techology is more important than figuring out what people REALLY WANT.

There is a reason V-twin and boxers still exist, people like them.. and are willing to pay for them..
 Is still remember a Honda ad mentioning hydraulic valve adjustment on a cruiser motor.. well I guess that really put thenm on the map, didnt it!

There is a certain point where newer and better is not the main thing people are looking for..

[ev0lve]

There is a certain point where newer and better is not the main thing people are looking for..

Are we sure about this not selling enough stuff? Cause I'm having difficulty with the idea this is going to be a better seller than the R. Sporty Goldwing anyone? Automatic transmission? OK. I'm biased. But explain to me again the economics of this stuff...

http://powersports.honda.com/2009/dn-01/360.aspx

[ofreen]

Would it REALLY KILL THEM to make a bike with a kicker..?

Here is what I never liked about Japanese bikes..

They always thought new techology is more important than figuring out what people REALLY WANT.

There is a reason V-twin and boxers still exist, people like them.. and are willing to pay for them..
 

An irony in this post is you can't buy a new V twin or a boxer with a kickstart either.  It's OK tho, I like irony.

[Shenanigans]

i wonder what used 919's are going for?

Give it a little while and hopefully dirt cheap.
So I can finally get one.

[HavocTurbo]

There is a certain point where newer and better is not the main thing people are looking for..

Are we sure about this not selling enough stuff? Cause I'm having difficulty with the idea this is going to be a better seller than the R. Sporty Goldwing anyone? Automatic transmission? OK. I'm biased. But explain to me again the economics of this stuff...

http://powersports.honda.com/2009/dn-01/360.aspx

The thought is that there is a whole untapped market of riders that cannot or will not use a manual transmission. While some of this was addressed in the 70's... there was no marketing behind it. Supposedly this time there is.

You gotta spend money to make money.

Maybe this time with a "scooter" engine and high gas mileage they might market it enough to sell. Doubtful though. There are enough chinese companies to compensate.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

The DN-01 is an armchair on wheels with any auto-tranny -- but it seemed to attract the older segment at the Bike Show.  I thought they already made a version of that bike -- the Pacific Coast?

I heard the 1999 CB750 was simply a tribute/concept bike to celebrate the 30th anniversary of the CB750 -- with not production plans.  Too bad.  It was a great looking update of the classic model we all love.

I heard that Moto Guzzi will not be shipping the V7 Cafe to America, since the displacement is considered too small (744cc) for American tastes?  Too bad, again.  That's another great looking bike.

[Ecosse]

I heard that Moto Guzzi will not be shipping the V7 Cafe to America, since the displacement is considered too small (744cc) for American tastes?  Too bad, again.  That's another great looking bike.

That's a reversal of what I had read in one of the bike periodicals I pick up, don't remember which just now. Did you just hear of this recently? If it's so I bet it's more the economy than anything else. They (M-G) have other bikes with less displacement don't they?

Seems like companies do one of two things in hard times: either they become extremely cautious or they take bold chances.

And as long as we in the US (or anywhere else for that matter) continue to view what so far has been called a 'Retro' style it will remain perceived as a niche segment with limited potential and appeal. Come on,  folks it's a STANDARD.

It's not a bent over 'street fighter' or whatever, and not a road pillow. By labeling it a Retro, by we SOHCer's or the industry, automatically it becomes viewed by even it's supporters as all fads are, a dead end.

 

[j-conn]

man... i really like those new guzzi's

[Shenanigans]

Hmmm... Honda filed for patents for the CB1100, same type as the fury.

Maybe its going into production after all?

[754]

Get that XS 11 outa that Honda..

 I hate motors that are wider up top, to the right and left.... except Guzzi..

[LWATCDR]

The simple answer is that in the US motorcycles are toys.  Standard bikes are good at everything but great at nothing.
I do think the cruzers are going to go south. People my age are now buying bikes like the older age groups bought Harley's. We where little kids wishing that we could have a CB750, Z1, or GS. When I got my 750 the other day the guys at work where all over it because it looked "Old School".

[HavocTurbo]

Get that XS 11 outa that Honda..

 I hate motors that are wider up top, to the right and left.... except Guzzi..

Hear Hear!!!!