Author Topic: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!  (Read 11437 times)

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Offline RRRToolSolutions

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Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2006, 05:40:00 PM »
Rick, I don't. A table lift is one of those purchases I keep putting off. I do 1 or 2 bikes a year and I started thinking this is the "last one"  - a couple of years ago. I'm not sure I'll ever get one since the one I want is about $1,600. They are nice for oil changes and this one has drop down leafs front and rear to make tire removal easy. Maybe Santa will read this and bring one.....A friend nearby has it and they do a lot of cruiser oil and tire changes. They couldn't funtion without theirs.

I do have the Condor wheel chock which I use all of the time and all during assembly. They are well worth the $240 as they easily adjust and will hold the big Nomad, the ZRX, and even a little S90 perfectly verticle for oil changes. I bought a Craftsman bike jack a couple of years ago to service my Sportster, but I've been dissapointed with it since most of my Japanese bikes have pipes below the engine, using the jack is impractical. This is a hobby. It's what I like doing in the evenings and weekends. The restoring and tinkering on old bikes is my off-work life, so I am not sure about ever seeing that last "one". I may go in the ground the day after.
Kaws, Hondas, Yamahas, and Suzukis - especially Kaws

Offline RRRToolSolutions

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Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2006, 05:44:25 PM »
Sam, #V66 and #37 have me beat for sure. That old man and bike are getting a great holeshot!
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2006, 06:03:02 PM »
Gordon,

V66 is Eddie Turner on a 1931 500cc Douglas fore and aft flat twin, it ran 14.02 @ 90mph.

V37 is Henry Body on a 1938 350cc Excelsior Jap, it ran 15.04 @ 83mph.

Sam.
C95 sprint bike.
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Offline Jinxracing

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Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2006, 06:27:33 PM »
Gordon,

Regarding those SS fasteners to hold the removable frame tubes in place...

You sound like a very detail-oriented kind of guy (as am I), so you've probably considered this already, but will you be using shoulder bolts or a pin/sleeve arrangement to attach the frame tubes? Seems that they'll probably come under a decent amount of stress and it would be a shame (and possibly a disaster) if one of them were to shear. Probably a belt-and-braces solution, but I've been reading Carrol Smith's "Nuts, Bolts, and Fasteners" lately and am really starting to rethink how, where, and what fasteners I use.

Can't wait to see the photos when it's done!
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Offline Big Jay

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Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2006, 01:49:30 PM »
Back in the 70s we sold literly hundreds of frame kits for 750s. They were two tubes about 11 inches long and four sleeves about 3 inches long. You cut the top tubes out of the frame the same length as thwe two tubes in the kit, them used the fout sleeves to bolt everything in. Everyone who raced Hondas used these things. There was never a complaint about handling, etc.

Jay

Offline bhkrause

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Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2006, 07:11:38 PM »
Gordon - nice ZRX!!!     Right colour, anyhow...;D

Can you attach the Honda tubes the same way that the right side down tube of the ZRX is attached?  Looks pretty sturdy on mine, as long as the bolts are tight.

ot - are you on zrxoa as well??

bk
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original sohc #2663
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2006, 09:06:43 PM »
If I were going to do this (and might, with my spare K4 frame, for experimental reasons, before carving into my beloved K2), I would start with the SERIOUS inspection of the existing frame tubes. They often rust, especially down below. Then, I would consider cutting out most of the 3-tube run from seat-to-head, followed by using either slightly larger diameter tubing or slightly thicker (smaller I.D., same O.D.) tubing as stock, making 2 uprights (each side) of smaller width in between, replacing the one of stock design. Then, the 2 outer tubes would need a little gusseting at their landing points on the uprights, because they will be landing into lighter tubing, which will tend to crack the welds otherwise.

Honda's frame design was predicated on the Norton Featherbed frame, one of the most successful frame designs of all time. Oddly, it was first built of thick water pipe, by a couple of semi-liquored Brits during a cold winter, who wanted to race with Norton's tremendous torque. The advantage is the 3-point head landing, coupled with the wide cradle, both of which tend to make a rigid triangle between the swingarm mount points and the steering  tube, leaving the always-flexing engine out of the system. Honda's only mistake (starting with the K1 model) was to use thinner-walled tubing, which greatly reduced the side-to-side "twitch" reduction of the original Featherbed. Several racers I knew added a wrap of .031" tubing around the original side tubes on top (split them lengthwise, rewelded them over the original ones), to find they had created a frame so stiff it barely resembled the original (in handling terms). I've long wanted to do this to mine, but it REALLY complicated the act of removing the engine: that last 1/32" is really needed sometimes.

Racers I knew who added the "kits" of the 1970s that allowed removal of the upper tubes for engine maintenance all abandoned them for evil high-speed handling issues. I suspect that this was due to the poor method of reconnection and the even-thnner tube that was sold with those "kits" back then. The removable sections had 2 bolts that passed through the match-drilled holes on either end, supposedly squishing down onto the stock tubes when tightened. Problem was, the stock tubes simply crush, leaving a poor connection, and, frankly, one bolt per end is simply not enough grip. Drag racers got away with it because they don't often take wide, sweeping turns on purpose.   :o

Part 2 of "if I were going to do this, and might...", if I were doing it for in-frame engine servicing...: the insert sections must tie in with very thick-walled joints that will not crush, with 3-4 short, tough bolts at each junction that thread into the inserts, not through the tubes. Do not use solid slugs, they are weaker than tubes (that's just physics, boys, and ask the guys who extended forks that fateful way). The joint, put simply, must be as strong as a weld. Personally, I would also attempt to add as much width over the engine as is practical, by either offsetting the pipes or bending them outward a little, to improve the lateral stiffness to the head. This I would do directly over the engine area, narrowing back to the head. Look at the CBX (1000) or some crotch rocket tube frames to get the idea: it works. And, while cutting in pipes and the like, think about a small gusset to box in the "square" behind the engine, above the swingarm pivot, to steady up the head. That works, too.  ;)

If I were doing it for racing, I would do it to the downtubes and rear-of-engine cradle instead, adding an extra bent-tube crossmember across the bottom rear of the engine. It would be stronger, and the engine would be lowered to the ground, whole, for servicing. I've seen this done, and quite successfully, on the "F" model on the circuits of the late 1970s.

Like I've got the time, in between all these swingarm rebuilds...  :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline RRRToolSolutions

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Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2006, 05:42:36 PM »
Hondaman,

I thought this one through long before I actually took the Portaband to my just finished 836 resto.

My 2003 1500 Nomad touring bike has a bolt-in frame piece as does the before mentioned 2000 ZRX1100. Both bikes are designed to allow the removal of the right side downtube. This is a major structural part of the frame, but the attachment design and bolts used are made for the task. The big "OK" came when I looked at the CB750's tank and realized the fuel tank hid the whole project under it's stock belly. You will not see this modification. You won't even see it from the side - it's hid under that tank's sides where it flairs downward as it clears the frame rails undergoing surgery.

Here is the plan - This is a simple, crude drawing to illustrate the plan. Nothing is to scale. I've got a machinist/engineer working on the fabrication of insert halves, drilling and tapping the threads, and fitment between the four pairs 1/2 receivers and their 10mm grade 8 allen bolts that clamp the two halves together (or metric equivalent of same). He came out and studied the ZRX and Nomad joints and said he'd "match or exceed" their strength. The removed piece will get shortened to fit the new joinery. All 8 inserts will be TIG welded in-place inside the frame tubes. I'll lose a little powdercoat, although they are going to put cold-wrap around the tubing to minimize heat transfer. Once done, I'll use a high-gloss epoxy paint to return the frame to a durable gloss black. The removable piece will of course be stripped and re-powdercoated once the new ends are welded in place.

BK - Thanks on the ZRX comments. I enjoy this bike and have for the 6 years I've owned it. I just don't get much chance to ride it because I prefer the old 70's bikes to these newer ones.

Regards,
Gordon




« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 05:48:06 PM by Ilbikes »
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2006, 08:32:11 PM »
I couldn't make out too well the purple and yellow parts in your drawing: are they flat plate-type parts? If so, I have a suggestion: see if you can locate a couple of dowels (with tapered edges) into these assemblies to provide positive alignment and extra shear strength when they bolt together. This is usually done in machinery that requires precise positioning with removability for servicing, but must be very strong and repeatably aligned.

Up under the tank is the best option for allowing in-frame engine work, that's certain. Good luck with this: it will be fun to see how it works out!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Industrial Cafe

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Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2009, 06:47:36 PM »
Well... is there any progress?
everything I say is pure speculation and
I have no idea what I'm talking about  ._.


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Offline MCRider

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Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2009, 07:57:18 PM »
Well... is there any progress?
Yes the task was accomplished quite nicely by Gordon. Many people here have purchased the kits and installed them.  Here's the latest of many threads on the subject. http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=43144.0  On page 3 of this link is another thread link from XN complete with installation pictures.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 08:00:10 PM by MCRider »
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